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Old 12-08-2013, 08:51 PM   #201
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Default Re: Shocker! The Academy discards Man Of Steel from Best Visual FX Oscar race!!!

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Originally Posted by SuperMan of Steel View Post
Snyder had the same time that Whedon, the movie was finished by December. there were some other particular things they need to focus in that time. remember they delayed the release date?
That's actually what I'm referring to. From the end of principal photography to release, Avengers had 8 months. MOS had a year and a half. That's insane. Without getting too into it, I know not all that time is dedicated purely for VFX work. But my god that was such ample time to perfect the effects to where it should've been cutting edge.

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The Avengers final fight is great no doubt but IMO can't be compared with MOS cause it was pretty much 6 heroes with multiple skills vs S 1 hero had more dificulty (Superman did not have armor, mask and his powers were more difficult to plasm than any of the Avengers and even so Snyder did something groundbreaking as the collision effect, superspeed) and greater visuals leaving overall MOS third act more spectacular than TA's IMO.
Eh, the fact that Snyder only had to focus on two characters should've been easier. This was only Whedon's second foray into visual effects, and the umpteenth time for Snyder. Juggling around 4 heroes all with their own unique powers (and one that is wholly CG) seems more of a feat than two Supermen.

Beside that however, I just think Whedon's greater advantage was shooting a lot of elaborate sets. From what I saw of both production videos, Whedon recreated NY streets on a soundstage. Snyder merely provided the floors. Makes a big difference when it comes to the final vfx work. Lighting, in particular. Poor decision on his part. Or at least his choosing of the VFX studio to handle the climax.

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Old 12-08-2013, 09:10 PM   #202
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Default Re: Shocker! The Academy discards Man Of Steel from Best Visual FX Oscar race!!!

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That's actually what I'm referring to. From the end of principal photography to release, Avengers had 8 months. MOS had a year and a half. That's insane. Without getting too into it, I know not all that time is dedicated purely for VFX work. But my god that was such ample time to perfect the effects to where it should've been cutting edge.


Eh, the fact that Snyder only had to focus on two characters should've been easier. This was only Whedon's second foray into visual effects, and the umpteenth time for Snyder. Juggling around 4 heroes all with their own unique powers (and one that is wholly CG) seems more of a feat than two Supermen.

Beside that however, I just think Whedon's greater advantage was shooting a lot of elaborate sets. From what I saw of both production videos, Whedon recreated NY streets on a soundstage. Snyder merely provided the floors. Makes a big difference when it comes to the final vfx work. Lighting, in particular. Poor decision on his part. Or at least his choosing of the VFX studio to handle the climax.
Well talking about time. that's no real big thing in terms of improving. I think its "money" and technology (future) that improve things. But I think the "possible" movement of the next movie is slow-motion in some scenes. But there's no much improvement for some details that the VFX clearly had, but clearly the VFX are cutting edge generally speaking, yeah with details but nothing as big that needed to worry about.
Again Whedon has a pretty good advantage over Snyder in terms of powers cause if you noticed Iron man's powers were since 2008 and Thor's, Hulk also but none of those were at the same level of dificulty than Superman's powers as the collisions with punches, superspeed (specially Faora), heat vision but the most difficult is to fight at superspeed without an armor, a mask and with a cape which make the visual more difficult.
Also the climax from MOS dealed with some more spectacular things as the building falling (one of the best visual I've seen) or the Terraforming thing.
Snyder also build a scenario in smallville (the gas station, helicopters and so) and almost all from Smallville was shooted. In Metropolis due to the superior and difficult climax that was almost impossible to build a scenario.
I only remember that the only thing Whedon filmed was the cars explotion and some little aspects from NY but the most greater things were CGI and for example in the 6 vs chitauri Cap's looked fake and Hawkeye enviroment was notorious CGI, Loki on the Chitaure little ship looked weird; Thor looking weird in the woods while fighting with Iron Man, Black Widow running while Hulk's was after her, Cap's sky diving (for me the worst CGI effect of the movie) but I think being that critical is not good for the movies cause if this was the criteria all the movies will have plenty of "flaws". I simply don't understand the desire of many people wanting all be without green screen and wanting almost impossible powers and things plasmed in the movie. Many of both movies greater things were CGI with real actors, I mean some of the best VFX had nothing to do with filming scenarios and were Green screen.

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Old 12-08-2013, 10:38 PM   #203
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Default Re: Shocker! The Academy discards Man Of Steel from Best Visual FX Oscar race!!!

I don't have an issue with this.

I was never impressed with visual effects of MOS.

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Old 12-09-2013, 12:03 AM   #204
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Default Re: Shocker! The Academy discards Man Of Steel from Best Visual FX Oscar race!!!

The kryptonion armor.
Nuff said

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Old 12-09-2013, 08:45 AM   #205
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Default Re: Shocker! The Academy discards Man Of Steel from Best Visual FX Oscar race!!!

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I'm pretty sure MoS lost out due to unpopularity, it's certainly not because Thor 2 has better VFX, lol.

If you din't care Marvin, you wouldn't be posting here.
I said I didn't care what they think, not what they think doesn't matter. The same way I don't care what a critic thinks of a movie but a broken critical census website matters. Ergo I post about it.

As for popularity & coolness.
Not all popular and cool films win/nominated for oscars, and not all un popular and uncool films don't. Being nominated doesn't change any of that. Especially when it comes to vfx.
Point blank period.

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Old 12-09-2013, 08:54 AM   #206
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Default Re: Shocker! The Academy discards Man Of Steel from Best Visual FX Oscar race!!!

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All of these films, and I do mean all of them, actually featured cutting edge CGI when they were released. Spider-Man 1 & 2 showcase some imagery that you couldn't even think was possible back then, District 9 got the nod for mixing seamlessly visual and practical effects on a small production budget and Rise of The Planet Of The Apes feature some of the best use of performance capture even by today's standards.

Even in its best scenes (I'm thinking about those on Krypton) Man of Steel is nothing groundbreaking. They used preexisting techniques, sometimes properly, sometimes not.
The issue was of consistency being an disqualifyer.

Moreover, I'd argue Sp2 was hardly cutting edge considering it's preceding film. I'd argue Apes and Serkis motion performance capture stopped being cutting edge after about half a dozen films had used the same tech.
Refinement is another matter. You yourself mentioning the term preexisting tech in your mos detraction.

As for D9, if only all films could present their budget as an argument.

I have little fight in this topic, just pointing out the inconsistencies in both the detraction from commentors and selectors.

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Old 12-09-2013, 08:59 AM   #207
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Default Re: Shocker! The Academy discards Man Of Steel from Best Visual FX Oscar race!!!

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I think MAN OF STEEL had some excellent effects. I disagree with any complaints about bad CGI.

But I don't think the effects themselves were particularly groundbreaking. While there was more of it in MAN OF STEEL, we've seen some similar things before in other films. Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the Academy tend to award innovation in effects?
Apply that to near any other category and it wouldn't make all that much sense. Though you might be onto something.
I was under the impression that they favor vfx that best tells the story.

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Old 12-09-2013, 10:54 AM   #208
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Default Re: Shocker! The Academy discards Man Of Steel from Best Visual FX Oscar race!!!

To that person who said ILM worked on MOS... they did not work on it. All that CGI on the screen was from WETA, Double Negative, and MPC.

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Old 12-09-2013, 11:02 AM   #209
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Default Re: Shocker! The Academy discards Man Of Steel from Best Visual FX Oscar race!!!

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Who said it was 100% amazing? Please read again my posts then we talk.
I said it was great handled due to the difficulty of what superman represents (He doesn't wear a mask and his powers are difficult to plasm in a real world). There's a difference so before you call me whatever you want please read my posts, and please do it with some respect.
You can't claim with a snap so lame in terms of quality. That was my point.
If you're going to critizice something please do it with some facts.
You're arguing with people who found some CGI shots problematic. You're pretty much implying (or flatout saying) that they're wrong and that MOS has amazing CGI.

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I didn't see the problem you claimed. That effect is due to the speed. I mean at that speed you can't take a perfect shot. I see some issues here but nothing as bad as you said. Pretty difficult to plasm and they did a good job due to to difficulty of the scene and the scenario. We weren't used to that kind of speed and strenght in any other movie. That's why the effect looks like that.
Speed has nothing to do with this, especially since the Faora scene (and Superman flying scenes) showed that they could use the superspeed effect to great success. It's the transition from live-action to CGI that's poor, that's all. The problem is you're fine with just good enough when there is clearly a chance for the vfx department to do even better.

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Old 12-09-2013, 11:30 AM   #210
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Default Re: Shocker! The Academy discards Man Of Steel from Best Visual FX Oscar race!!!

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You're arguing with people who found some CGI shots problematic. You're pretty much implying (or flatout saying) that they're wrong and that MOS has amazing CGI.



Speed has nothing to do with this, especially since the Faora scene (and Superman flying scenes) showed that they could use the superspeed effect to great success. It's the transition from live-action to CGI that's poor, that's all. The problem is you're fine with just good enough when there is clearly a chance for the vfx department to do even better.
Indeed MOS has amazing CGI but who said it was perfect? The issues are there no doubt but not as big as some claim. that's all. Those are different things. especially in the second gif its nototious that the speed and the angle of the shot gives that effect. But in the first gif it for example I saw in the documentary all out action that this scene was indeed with real actors and that made the shot real. not all the shots had the same difficulty and the ones in the last act were the most difficult IMO. I think MOS CGI is groundbreaking in some new and never before seen aspects, also due to the difficulty on plasming Superman's powers and he doesn't wear mask, armor or anything that makes the VFX easy to plasm, that's was my point. Of course there is room from improvement in some aspects but with new technology and I hope they do it even better than this time. I respect your opinion because you have different tastes that's ok no problem. We all have different points of view. Have a nice day

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Old 12-09-2013, 11:44 AM   #211
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Default Re: Shocker! The Academy discards Man Of Steel from Best Visual FX Oscar race!!!

It's kind of silly to point out the parts in MOS where the CGI didn't look real when half of Pacific Rim looked like a damned cartoon and it still made the list.

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Old 12-09-2013, 11:55 AM   #212
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Default Re: Shocker! The Academy discards Man Of Steel from Best Visual FX Oscar race!!!

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It's kind of silly to point out the parts in MOS where the CGI didn't look real when half of Pacific Rim looked like a damned cartoon and it still made the list.
That's kind of the point. Its about consistency. Pacific Rim was highly stylized and they kept it up.

Even though i love what they did in MOS its not a far comparison. Movies like Pacific Rim, 300, and Sky Captain and the World of Tomorrow are different. MOS is about blending CGI with Real world environments which it did really good in a lot of scenes. Those other movies are about blending real people into mostly CGI environments. MOS went from skillfully handing off action scene between animation and live actors in real environments to just going Full CGI characters in a CGI environment in the last half of the finally with maybe a close up with the characters live action face plastered on the CGI model.

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Old 12-09-2013, 12:29 PM   #213
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Default Re: Shocker! The Academy discards Man Of Steel from Best Visual FX Oscar race!!!

Giving PRim the sky captain pass ain't gonna fly imo. SC was a full cartoon with human actors. Rim just so happened to have a director that wasn't down for shooting his plates on real locations.

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Old 12-09-2013, 12:49 PM   #214
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Giving PRim the sky captain pass ain't gonna fly imo. SC was a full cartoon with human actors. Rim just so happened to have a director that wasn't down for shooting his plates on real locations.
It's not about giving any thing a pass. Its about having a consistent look and feel where everything looks like it belongs in the world that it's being presented. That's kind of why you hardly ever hear any one complain about the Smallville fight. Everything looks meshed and uniformed.

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Old 12-09-2013, 01:10 PM   #215
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Default Re: Shocker! The Academy discards Man Of Steel from Best Visual FX Oscar race!!!

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Even the Kryptonian tech was called as visionary by some experts, but no it was a copy of Star treck? lol I've never seen the metal liquid tech of krypton used by Spock
You don't even believe what you've said. Your movies only are the best. the others can't be great even if this movies are way superior than your movies.
I stop reading there and I don't even bothered to read what a blinded and biased hater tries to say. Yeah whatever you've said is correct.
This discussion with you has no point and at least for me this conversation is over.
Yeah I think you need a break dude. Clearly, unless you want to keep making a fool of yourself.

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Old 12-09-2013, 01:29 PM   #216
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Default Re: Shocker! The Academy discards Man Of Steel from Best Visual FX Oscar race!!!

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The issue was of consistency being an disqualifyer.

Moreover, I'd argue Sp2 was hardly cutting edge considering it's preceding film. I'd argue Apes and Serkis motion performance capture stopped being cutting edge after about half a dozen films had used the same tech.
Refinement is another matter. You yourself mentioning the term preexisting tech in your mos detraction.

As for D9, if only all films could present their budget as an argument.

I have little fight in this topic, just pointing out the inconsistencies in both the detraction from commentors and selectors.
The issue is technical inconsistencies being a disqualifier in a 2013 movie by 2013's standards. You cannot compare today's standards to those prevailing for films released more than 10 years ago when the technology was still extremely young. There are shots you can forgive in Spider-Man because of the technical limitations that used to exist. MoS problems in the VFX department don't come from any technical limitation (as far as I know anyways, they had all the proper tools) but most likely from planning mistakes and a poor handling in the work distribution between all the companies that provided the CGI work of the 2 sequences in Smallville and Metropolis.

Now you can pin point whatever you want in my arguments but all the films mentionned from Spider-Man to Rise Of The Planet Of The Apes helped promote some technological innovations, wether it's something brand new (wich is always debatable anyways) or significant refinements. MoS didn't.

I mean Spider-Man featured the first use of photogrammetry on such a large scale, Spider-Man 2 showcased the first use of reflectance field rendering of human faces (wich was basically just a theory before the movie went to production) and Rise Of The Planet of The Apes is the first film (and maybe still only film, I would have to double check that) that features the use of performance capture in exterior environments using a technology that was never used before. All those movies promoted technological advancement and deserved their nominations for this very reason.

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Old 12-09-2013, 01:36 PM   #217
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Default Re: Shocker! The Academy discards Man Of Steel from Best Visual FX Oscar race!!!

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Yeah I think you need a break dude. Clearly, unless you want to keep making a fool of yourself.
Yeah! whatever you said. In all posts you try to dimiss MOS, even if THE MOVIE DID A GREAT JOB IN MULTIPLE AREAS and you don't accept anything good from this movie I see that now. but guess what? your efforts are pointless. According to you all the movies except this one did something even if they didn't please do us a favor and keep liking your "great movies". Cheers buddy.

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Old 12-09-2013, 01:56 PM   #218
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Default Re: Shocker! The Academy discards Man Of Steel from Best Visual FX Oscar race!!!

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That's kind of the point. Its about consistency. Pacific Rim was highly stylized and they kept it up.

MOS went from skillfully handing off action scene between animation and live actors in real environments to just going Full CGI characters in a CGI environment in the last half of the finally withmaybe a close up with the characters live action face plastered on the CGI model.
In the documentary all out action clearly how they did in some shots with live actions in CGI enviroment but they didn't plastered live action actors on a CGI model. here are some examples of the final battle
Of course in some shots were the actors couldn't do that type of moves they used CGI doubles Agreed.
notice in this case its clearly a CGI double but there IMO doesn't seem that way.
In movement I didn't notice too much, I had to freeze the movie to see the details that obviously are more notorious than in movement.
Pacific Rim did a great job and deserved the nomination but I guess MOS merit of doing a more difficult enviroment with more ambitious VFX also deserved the nomination and even more than some other nominated movies. Cause you know the winner is clearly Gravity.

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Old 12-09-2013, 04:13 PM   #219
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Default Re: Shocker! The Academy discards Man Of Steel from Best Visual FX Oscar race!!!

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Yeah! whatever you said. In all posts you try to dimiss MOS, even if THE MOVIE DID A GREAT JOB IN MULTIPLE AREAS and you don't accept anything good from this movie I see that now. but guess what? your efforts are pointless. According to you all the movies except this one did something even if they didn't please do us a favor and keep liking your "great movies". Cheers buddy.
I thought you were done with the discussion ? If you're not bother with all the inconsistencies in MoS' cgi work at least try to be consistent with your own words.

But really dude another of your pointless fanboy rants ? Seriously you have nothing else to do other than trolling this board, jumping to conclusions and accusing people of someting that is so obviously false I won't even bother to explain it to you, without even a single argument on the subject that is being discussed here ?

Is this really your idea of how a discussion should be conducted ? If it is buddy, then I feel sorry for you.

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Old 12-09-2013, 04:17 PM   #220
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I thought you were done with the discussion ? If you're not bother with all the inconsistencies in MoS' cgi work at least try to be consistent with your own words.

But really dude another of your pointless fanboy rants ? Seriously you have nothing else to do other than trolling this boards, jumping to conclusions and accusing people of someting that is so obviously false, without even a single argument on the subject that is being discussed here.

Is this really your idea of how a discussion should be conducted ?
Don't ever bother saying anything. cause your trolling and hate is not going to affect my judgement. I didn't even read anything you said in your beautiful last post. Go and see your marvel movies. those are the only ones that worth to be seen and only deserve prizes .

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Old 12-09-2013, 04:28 PM   #221
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Don't ever bother saying anything. cause your trolling and hate is not going to affect my judgement. I didn't even read anything you said in your beautiful last post. Go and see your marvel movies. those are the only ones that worths to be seen and only deserves prizes .

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Old 12-09-2013, 05:07 PM   #222
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Old 12-09-2013, 05:10 PM   #223
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Shocker! I still don't have an oscar. Forget these people.

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Old 12-09-2013, 05:55 PM   #224
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Default Re: Shocker! The Academy discards Man Of Steel from Best Visual FX Oscar race!!!

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It's not about giving any thing a pass. Its about having a consistent look and feel where everything looks like it belongs in the world that it's being presented. That's kind of why you hardly ever hear any one complain about the Smallville fight. Everything looks meshed and uniformed.
The point was simple. Prim suffers from the same (time/budget) inconsistencies in execution that MOS did(even with a better effects house). You defend this by bringing up sky captain and deliberate stylization. That means little when you lack consistency.

Exhibit A: This is the bench mark stylization be damned.


Exhibit B: Two random shots from in film I find on google.



That's nice that mos has low points. The point I made was simply that it's not alone. To deny such is folly.
Then again mos get's alot of stuff other films don't.

What's more, the cgi was never actually bad in mos, it just became painfully apparent that it was cgi(doubles) at times imo. That being the case see exhibit b.

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Old 12-09-2013, 06:01 PM   #225
Marvin
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Default Re: Shocker! The Academy discards Man Of Steel from Best Visual FX Oscar race!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by JKKS085 View Post
The issue is technical inconsistencies being a disqualifier in a 2013 movie by 2013's standards. You cannot compare today's standards to those prevailing for films released more than 10 years ago when the technology was still extremely young. There are shots you can forgive in Spider-Man because of the technical limitations that used to exist. MoS problems in the VFX department don't come from any technical limitation (as far as I know anyways, they had all the proper tools) but most likely from planning mistakes and a poor handling in the work distribution between all the companies that provided the CGI work of the 2 sequences in Smallville and Metropolis.

Now you can pin point whatever you want in my arguments but all the films mentionned from Spider-Man to Rise Of The Planet Of The Apes helped promote some technological innovations, wether it's something brand new (wich is always debatable anyways) or significant refinements. MoS didn't.

I mean Spider-Man featured the first use of photogrammetry on such a large scale, Spider-Man 2 showcased the first use of reflectance field rendering of human faces (wich was basically just a theory before the movie went to production) and Rise Of The Planet of The Apes is the first film (and maybe still only film, I would have to double check that) that features the use of performance capture in exterior environments using a technology that was never used before. All those movies promoted technological advancement and deserved their nominations for this very reason.
1. I thought apes was nominated last year
2. On set performance capture wasn't invented last year(wasn't even invented the year of pirates 2 where it was also used) though I suppose you can argue some new wonderful thing was developed for apes.
3. Time and resource distribution can solve alot of problems, it goes both ways however, spidey 2 had some high fidelity moments and it had some very low ones. That being the truth, you can only excuse tech so much.
It would be different if the film consistently looked bad.

Sorry but if the issue is of consistency, I simply see a double standard.

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