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Old 12-09-2013, 09:47 AM   #76
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Default Re: The Official Zack Snyder Thread

Geez, why don't you just rename this the "Zack Snyder Sucks Thread."

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Old 12-09-2013, 09:52 AM   #77
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I don't think Snyder sucks. For years Watchmen has been said to to unfilmable and yet he did it and was very respectful. Sure there were some changes but it was still amazing.

I trust Snyder when he has a good screenplay in his hands. I don't think Goyer's Man of Steel screenplay was great at all. Personally I think Snyder is one of the pluses for this film.

I trust Snyder was he has a good screenplay in his hands.

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Old 12-09-2013, 10:01 AM   #78
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I agree that Watchmen was very good. People like to rip it apart but I generally have to roll my eyes because there is SO much to that story that if you tried to fit it all in, the movie would be about eight hours long. The fact that Snyder was able to get the key points in there and make it work in any capacity is praiseworthy.

I actually got into a heated argument about Watchmen recently with someone who was pissed about the changes they made from the graphic novel, even though she didn't actually READ the graphic novel. Some friend of hers just told her the end was different.

It's like, if you didn't like the end of the movie, then fine. But to dislike it because it was different from something you didn't even read? That doesn't make any sense at all.

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Old 12-09-2013, 10:11 AM   #79
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I agree that Watchmen was very good. People like to rip it apart but I generally have to roll my eyes because there is SO much to that story that if you tried to fit it all in, the movie would be about eight hours long. The fact that Snyder was able to get the key points in there and make it work in any capacity is praiseworthy.

I actually got into a heated argument about Watchmen recently with someone who was pissed about the changes they made from the graphic novel, even though she didn't actually READ the graphic novel. Some friend of hers just told her the end was different.

It's like, if you didn't like the end of the movie, then fine. But to dislike it because it was different from something you didn't even read? That doesn't make any sense at all.
I thought the change to the end was fantastic. It added a lot more weight to Dr. Manhattan's character, not that there needed to be more but having more is never a bad thing.

The only argument I can see against it is that it gave Dr. Manhattan empathy, which is against his nihilistic POV in the comic, but at that point I find the argument a matter of taste.

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Old 12-09-2013, 10:15 AM   #80
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I thought the change to the end was fantastic. It added a lot more weight to Dr. Manhattan's character, not that there needed to be more but having more is never a bad thing.

The only argument I can see against it is that it gave Dr. Manhattan empathy, which is against his nihilistic POV in the comic, but at that point I find the argument a matter of taste.
Yeah, the change at the end really worked for me too. I think that had they done the fake squid alien thing, it would have just confused the hell out of people.

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Old 12-09-2013, 10:25 AM   #81
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I thought the change to the end was fantastic. It added a lot more weight to Dr. Manhattan's character, not that there needed to be more but having more is never a bad thing.
I loved the change as well. But I read the novel AFTER the movie.

The Watchmen is the best movie of Zack Snyder. And probably the only movie that can actually "compete" with The Dark Knight.

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Old 12-09-2013, 10:48 AM   #82
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I loved the change as well. But I read the novel AFTER the movie.

The Watchmen is the best movie of Zack Snyder. And probably the only movie that can actually "compete" with The Dark Knight.
Yeah, in some ways I actually like Watchmen better than TDK.

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Old 12-09-2013, 10:53 AM   #83
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I don't think Snyder sucks. For years Watchmen has been said to to unfilmable and yet he did it and was very respectful. Sure there were some changes but it was still amazing.

I trust Snyder when he has a good screenplay in his hands. I don't think Goyer's Man of Steel screenplay was great at all. Personally I think Snyder is one of the pluses for this film.

I trust Snyder was he has a good screenplay in his hands.
Ironically, I feel like if the story flowed more or less exactly the same way, with the exact same plot and dialog, under a different director, it'd be a lot WORSE.
The performances and visuals elevated a wildly uneven screenplay.

There WERE rumors that Zack had his own hired hand rewrite parts of the screenplay. Funny enough, I was one of the few who was encouraged by this, because it would of meant he was mature enough to see the flaws in Goyer's screenplay and try to have them fixed (which might have made things worse, who knows?).

But alas, no third man stepped in.

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Old 12-09-2013, 10:57 AM   #84
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Ah Watchmen! I think it is basically a **** screenplay, a rubbish adaptation. Too concerned with getting in images and moments from the book than making a coherent and flowing film.

The book is actually kinda like a who-dun-it, a mystery, with forward propulsion, and a doom laden sense. The movie is none of this. The movie is extremely fetishized and obsessed over and not in a good way.

It worked for 300 because 300 was telling a very slim story, so any embellishments and extravagance helped the film. Watchmen is telling a very large story and needed focus and coherence and urgency.

Plus it was horribly miscast up and down the line. Goode as a 45 year old physically and intellectually superior specimen is the worst casting in comic book history me thinks.

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Old 12-09-2013, 10:59 AM   #85
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Ben Affleck is clearly the stronger director when it comes to drama.
That's why I said SOME. Like maybe Ben Affleck might be burned out after a while, and Zack will be like, "here I'll take over."

And I do think that Zack can really give chill-worthy moments on film. The Blanket scene in MOS, the ending of Watchmen, the scene of Pa Kent revealing his son's origin to him, etc.

Of course if any moment is "off" people will all point the fingers at Zack, but at the same time, I feel like his involvement will bring about a sense of scale to an already strong film (if it's directed by Affleck or another strong filmmaker). And I feel that very few directors respect grandiosity like he does.


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Old 12-09-2013, 11:25 AM   #86
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blanket scene

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Old 12-09-2013, 11:32 AM   #87
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Ah Watchmen! I think it is basically a **** screenplay, a rubbish adaptation. Too concerned with getting in images and moments from the book than making a coherent and flowing film.

The book is actually kinda like a who-dun-it, a mystery, with forward propulsion, and a doom laden sense. The movie is none of this. The movie is extremely fetishized and obsessed over and not in a good way.

It worked for 300 because 300 was telling a very slim story, so any embellishments and extravagance helped the film. Watchmen is telling a very large story and needed focus and coherence and urgency.

Plus it was horribly miscast up and down the line. Goode as a 45 year old physically and intellectually superior specimen is the worst casting in comic book history me thinks.
Shaq and Arnold Schwarzenegger say hi.

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Old 12-09-2013, 11:34 AM   #88
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Shaq and Arnold Schwarzenegger say hi.
Didn't get the joke?

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Old 12-09-2013, 11:41 AM   #89
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Default Re: The Official Zack Snyder Thread

You were talking about the worst miscasting in comic book film history. While I do agree that Goode was miscast (largely due to his age), I still wouldn't put that miscasting at the same level as Shaq - a man who not only CAN'T act, but says everything in such a monotone voice that he comes off like he was born without a brain stem - as brilliant weapons engineer John Henry Irons, or Arnold as Victor Fries.

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Old 12-09-2013, 11:55 AM   #90
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The Blanket scene in MOS,
... was super cheesy and generic and cliche.

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the ending of Watchmen,
... was a really sloppy and blunt adaptation of a very subtle and nuanced scene from the book that completely missed the point of the most important line of dialogue in the whole book.

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the scene of Pa Kent revealing his son's origin to him,
... was, again, a stock sic-fi movie scene with poor camera choices and really wooden dialogue/line delivery.

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Of course if any moment is "off" people will all point the fingers at Zack, but at the same time, I feel like his involvement will bring about a sense of scale to an already strong film (if it's directed by Affleck or another strong filmmaker). And I feel that very few directors respect grandiosity like he does.
My problem with Zack Snyder is that his "grandiosity" is largely unearned. It's big beautiful epic things that don't say anything or mean anything. Without a basic human emotional foundation to prop them up, they're basically really pretty and expensive screen savers.

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Old 12-09-2013, 12:19 PM   #91
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... was super cheesy and generic and cliche.



... was a really sloppy and blunt adaptation of a very subtle and nuanced scene from the book that completely missed the point of the most important line of dialogue in the whole book.



... was, again, a stock sic-fi movie scene with poor camera choices and really wooden dialogue/line delivery.



My problem with Zack Snyder is that his "grandiosity" is largely unearned. It's big beautiful epic things that don't say anything or mean anything. Without a basic human emotional foundation to prop them up, they're basically really pretty and expensive screen savers.
I have to respectfully disagree because Snyder has worked with some GREAT actors that have really been able to bring the story to life. From Cavil to Gerard Butler to Jackie Earle Haley. Rorshach's final scene in Watchmen is so powerful and emotional I don't see how you can not be moved by it. I think if there's one thing Snyder's movies have is human emotional foundation. Well, unless we're talking about Sucker Punch; with that i'd agree that it was nothing but a string of large scale action scenes with no emotional tether in between. But for Mos, Watchmen and 300 I'd have to disagree.

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Old 12-09-2013, 12:26 PM   #92
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You were talking about the worst miscasting in comic book film history. While I do agree that Goode was miscast (largely due to his age), I still wouldn't put that miscasting at the same level as Shaq - a man who not only CAN'T act, but says everything in such a monotone voice that he comes off like he was born without a brain stem - as brilliant weapons engineer John Henry Irons, or Arnold as Victor Fries.
I ain't familiar with their characters in books so can't comment.

But you are right Goode was horribly miscast age wise, he looked like a boy (supposed to be playing a 45 year old man).

And even besides that he was physically all wrong. He's supposed to be the most physically superior human in that universe and who does Snyder cast? A toothpick! Snyder who pays such close attention to physicality really lost the plot in that film. Even Patrick Wilson was too in shape to play a washed up Night Owl. And again looked too young.

The casting in Watchmen is screwed.

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Old 12-09-2013, 12:27 PM   #93
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I have to respectfully disagree because Snyder has worked with some GREAT actors that have really been able to bring the story to life. From Cavil to Gerard Butler to Jackie Earle Haley. Rorshach's final scene in Watchmen is so powerful and emotional I don't see how you can not be moved by it. I think if there's one thing Snyder's movies have is human emotional foundation. Well, unless we're talking about Sucker Punch; with that i'd agree that it was nothing but a string of large scale action scenes with no emotional tether in between. But for Mos, Watchmen and 300 I'd have to disagree.
But you even mention by name the reason for that: Henry Cavil, Gerard Butler, and Jackie Earle Haley. Superman, Leonidas, and Rorschach were captivating to watch because I'm not sure those three actors are physically capable of turning in a weak performance. Those characters and those actors were easily the best parts of their respective movies, but I don't credit that to Zack Snyder.

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Old 12-09-2013, 01:01 PM   #94
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Well, I think you have to at least give some credit to Snyder for casting them. Maybe that wasn't all 100% his decision, I don't know, but I believe he had the final say there. Bad casting can ruin an otherwise good movie.

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Old 12-09-2013, 01:03 PM   #95
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Yeah, in some ways I actually like Watchmen better than TDK.
It's not really about likes and dislikes. These two just question much more than other comic book movies. And not only try to, but actually success.

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Old 12-09-2013, 01:04 PM   #96
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Well, I think you have to at least give some credit to Snyder for casting them. Maybe that wasn't all 100% his decision, I don't know, but I believe he had the final say there. Bad casting can ruin an otherwise good movie.
Yeah, but we're not discussing his merits as a casting director. We're discussing his merits as the director.

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Old 12-09-2013, 04:02 PM   #97
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Ah Watchmen! I think it is basically a **** screenplay, a rubbish adaptation. Too concerned with getting in images and moments from the book than making a coherent and flowing film.

The book is actually kinda like a who-dun-it, a mystery, with forward propulsion, and a doom laden sense. The movie is none of this. The movie is extremely fetishized and obsessed over and not in a good way.

It worked for 300 because 300 was telling a very slim story, so any embellishments and extravagance helped the film. Watchmen is telling a very large story and needed focus and coherence and urgency.

Plus it was horribly miscast up and down the line. Goode as a 45 year old physically and intellectually superior specimen is the worst casting in comic book history me thinks.
No. Just no.

What's not coherent about it?

Do you honestly not see how saying "the movie has none of this" is simply an absurd statement?

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Old 12-09-2013, 04:04 PM   #98
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... was a really sloppy and blunt adaptation of a very subtle and nuanced scene from the book that completely missed the point of the most important line of dialogue in the whole book.
Subtle? The book's final chapter was subtle? News to me

How did they miss the point with the ending of the film?

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Old 12-09-2013, 04:06 PM   #99
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Subtle? The book's final chapter was subtle? News to me
Yup. A lot of stuff going on there that isn't spelled out but is still very important.

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How did they miss the point with the ending of the film?
By giving the line "nothing ever ends" to a different character in a completely different context, thus completely changing the meaning of what is probably the most important like of dialogue in the story.

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Old 12-09-2013, 04:49 PM   #100
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Oh, I thought you meant that it was actually subtle overall.

I don't see how the meaning of the line changes. It's just no longer between Veidt and Manhattan, and Veidt isn't aware of the impending issue with his plan. Which isn't really all that Dr. Manhattan meant anyway. That line has a ton of meaning, not just one or two.

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