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Old 12-11-2013, 09:10 AM   #51
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Default Re: Who is to blame for Spider-Man 3?

I didn't use it to attack TASM, it's better
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Sandman wasn't even portrayed accurately. In the comic books, he is a straight-up criminal, not a sympathetic human being.
He reformed
The turned back to crime, and is quite sympathetic

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Old 12-11-2013, 09:18 AM   #52
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Default Re: Who is to blame for Spider-Man 3?

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I didn't use it to attack TASM, it's better

He reformed
The turned back to crime, and is quite sympathetic
That was much later on in the comics, and there he still started as a criminal. In SM3, the whole basis for him even being a criminal is sympathetic. "I don't want to hurt you. Leave now."

Gee, how intimidating.

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Old 12-11-2013, 09:25 AM   #53
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Default Re: Who is to blame for Spider-Man 3?

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That was much later on in the comics, and there he still started as a criminal. In SM3, the whole basis for him even being a criminal is sympathetic. "I don't want to hurt you. Leave now."

Gee, how intimidating.
2001 and later
Who complained about adding the Ultimate Slayer to the 90s cartoon? That story was recent back at the time, so were Carnage, the Clone Saga, Ben Reilly, and Herbert Langdon

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Old 12-11-2013, 01:21 PM   #54
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Default Re: Who is to blame for Spider-Man 3?

You missed what I said. The basis for Sandman being a criminal in the movie was sympathetic. He only stole to save his daughter. "I'm not a bad person… I just have bad luck."

In the comics, he started as a full-time criminal that gained super powers, and was VERY intimidating. He later mended his ways, but that's a different story.

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Old 12-11-2013, 07:58 PM   #55
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Default Re: Who is to blame for Spider-Man 3?

It was 10 years in the comics before we had any backstory on Marko. until then all he did was fight the heroes. You can't have a movie where the villain doesn't have any storyline.

And Marko was certainly intimidating, by virtue of his powers. More than that, giving him a reason to fight aside from just scoring money adds to how dangerous he is.

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Old 12-12-2013, 07:28 PM   #56
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Default Re: Who is to blame for Spider-Man 3?

Sam Raimi

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Old 12-13-2013, 12:10 AM   #57
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Default Re: Who is to blame for Spider-Man 3?

Raimi's Mary Jane Watson (and the actress playing her - Kirsten Dunst,)

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Old 12-13-2013, 06:28 AM   #58
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Default Re: Who is to blame for Spider-Man 3?

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Right, because the movie turned out really well. Can you back up anything you said?
At least it won't turn out to be as craptastic as mediocre man 2.


Btw, to answer the thread title, Sony & Avi are to blame. Raimi did the best he could with what he had, and the fact that it didn't turn out to be a massive trainwreck (ie; Wolverine Origins, probably TASM2) is a compliment to his talent as a filmmaker when under massive pressure.

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Old 12-13-2013, 10:18 AM   #59
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Default Re: Who is to blame for Spider-Man 3?

Wait, why is TASM2 probably going to be a train wreck? I doubt it would be nearly as bad as SM3 if it is bad at all…

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Old 12-13-2013, 11:20 AM   #60
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Default Re: Who is to blame for Spider-Man 3?

Why is it that every thread somehow essentially turns into a Webb vs Raimi thing? This is about SM3. Movie making is a business and as long as costs are down and revenues are up , that's all that really matters. On those terms, SM3 was a success.

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Old 12-13-2013, 11:24 AM   #61
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Default Re: Who is to blame for Spider-Man 3?

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I see what's going on.

People are pretending SM3 is some underappreciated gem, despite the fact it craps on a few classic characters, to help preserve Raimi's legacy.

It's not going to work.

The film is always going one of the most disappointing films. Most people didn't see it multiple times. The movie had the worst legs of any Spider-man movie which means SM3 had a much bigger opening weekend than previous Spider-man movies but still made far less due to terrible word of mouth.

But this revisionism is cute. Please continue. Just like the prequel defenders your efforts will be in vain.
Or....

... just maybe, a film that garnered mixed reviews from critics had the same reactions from fans. Mixed =/= Universally hated. It's still positive on RT, so clearly some people actually liked it.

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Old 12-13-2013, 01:12 PM   #62
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Default Re: Who is to blame for Spider-Man 3?

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Or....

... just maybe, a film that garnered mixed reviews from critics had the same reactions from fans. Mixed =/= Universally hated. It's still positive on RT, so clearly some people actually liked it.
Well if we're using rottentomato scores SM3 is clearly the worst Spider-man movie.

and Phantom Menace almost has the same RT score as Spider-man 3 and most Star Wars fans would admit the Phantom Menace was a terrible Star Wars movie.

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Old 12-13-2013, 04:38 PM   #63
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Default Re: Who is to blame for Spider-Man 3?

RT scores mean next to nothing.

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Old 12-13-2013, 08:12 PM   #64
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Default Re: Who is to blame for Spider-Man 3?

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Well if we're using rottentomato scores SM3 is clearly the worst Spider-man movie.

and Phantom Menace almost has the same RT score as Spider-man 3 and most Star Wars fans would admit the Phantom Menace was a terrible Star Wars movie.
Well if we're using rottentomato scores TASM is clearly only marginally better than the worst Spider-man movie.


and Iron Man 2 has the same RT score as TASM and a fair amount of CBM fans would admit IM2 was a terrible movie.


See how well that works!

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Old 12-13-2013, 09:37 PM   #65
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Default Re: Who is to blame for Spider-Man 3?

Alot of people love to blame Arad for the movie's flaws. I have never bought for a second that he "forced" Venom on Sam or anyone. Arad knew,much like alot of us did,that Venom is a character most were drooling to see on screen. Yes,I'm sure he knew that Venom and the symbiote would rake in the dollars at the box office,but I also think it was more of a "let's give the fans what they want," kinda move more than anything. If Sam didn't like or understand Venom,fine. But he agreed to do it. And in doing so he should've made it his goal to really get into and understand the character more,and make the best film he could. People can say that it's Arad's fault,but then again it wasn't Arad who put in the dance scenes and "emo" Peter,and made Sandman Ben's killer;etc,etc.
I don't think it's all Sam's fault,but I put the majority of the blame on him.

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Old 12-14-2013, 12:57 AM   #66
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Default Re: Who is to blame for Spider-Man 3?

Well Sam was forced to use Venom, but it was his responsibility to do it right.

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Old 12-14-2013, 12:59 AM   #67
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Default Re: Who is to blame for Spider-Man 3?

How right could he do it though in a movie where he had to handle Goblin, Sandman, and Gwen Stacey, too.

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Old 12-14-2013, 01:09 AM   #68
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Default Re: Who is to blame for Spider-Man 3?

True. I think its partially the studio's fault as well as Raimi's. I doubt Avi told Sam to make Peter dance down the street and have two musical numbers. But they shouldn't have forced Venom in at the last minute either.

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Old 12-14-2013, 07:11 AM   #69
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Default Re: Who is to blame for Spider-Man 3?

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Alot of people love to blame Arad for the movie's flaws. I have never bought for a second that he "forced" Venom on Sam or anyone.
Raimi went on record to bash Venom as a character, and admitted he couldn't for the life of him understand what made him so popular ( ), so I really doubt he wanted to use him in the first place.

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Old 12-14-2013, 10:00 AM   #70
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Default Re: Who is to blame for Spider-Man 3?

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Originally Posted by A Necessary Evil View Post
Well if we're using rottentomato scores TASM is clearly only marginally better than the worst Spider-man movie.


and Iron Man 2 has the same RT score as TASM and a fair amount of CBM fans would admit IM2 was a terrible movie.


See how well that works!
I didn't bring up critic ratings. He did.

But here's the top 12 superhero movies of RT:


1) The Dark Knight - 94%

2) Spider-man 2 - 94%

3) Iron Man - 94%

4) Superman (78) - 93%

5) The Avengers - 92%

6) Spider-man - 89%

7) X2 - 88%

8) Superman 2 - 88%

9) The Dark Knight Rises - 87%

10) X-men First Class - 87%

11) Batman Begins - 85%

12) X-men - 82%


That's a reasonable list most fanboys would mostly agree with, so lets not pretend RT critic ratings have absolutely no merit.

Either way SM3 is the worst Spider-man movie based on critic reviews and user ratings just about everywhere the same way SM2 has better reviews and user ratings than SM1. But I'm sure that has no merit either.


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Old 12-14-2013, 11:29 AM   #71
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Default Re: Who is to blame for Spider-Man 3?

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Originally Posted by MessiahDecoy123 View Post
Well if we're using rottentomato scores SM3 is clearly the worst Spider-man movie.

and Phantom Menace almost has the same RT score as Spider-man 3 and most Star Wars fans would admit the Phantom Menace was a terrible Star Wars movie.
I'm sure you think this proves something else, but to me it suggests that Ep. 1 isn't as universially hated as people would suggest either.

That's how RT works. 60% isn't 6/10.

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Old 12-14-2013, 04:40 PM   #72
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Default Re: Who is to blame for Spider-Man 3?

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Vulture blackmailing Sandman? Geez, Sandman can make Vulture drown and save his kid
There is no guarantee it would have been better, although I think I heard somewhere the script was rushed after forcing Venom, what I read about the earlier draft is disappointing and 70% bitter
The original plan was they were gonna make Sandman and Vulture be old cellmates. This could have worked because they would have been connected right from the start and would have shared scenes together. That's two story arcs going on instead of three completely unrelated ones. With Sandman and Venom it was basically "You hate Spider-man. I hate Spider-man. Let's team-up!".

Vulture's also less complicated than Venom and would have started out as a pure evil villain. He also would have manipulated Sandman into committing crimes. Which would have made Sandman's villainous actions make more sense. SM3 makes him out to be not such as bad guy, but not only does he attack civilians and policemen, he also goes along with a plot to kidnap an innocent woman just so he could kill Spider-man. Removing Vulture's manipulation just made him look like a douche.

We also missed out on what could have been an epic air battle between Harry and Vulture.

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Old 12-15-2013, 10:15 AM   #73
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Default Re: Who is to blame for Spider-Man 3?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MessiahDecoy123 View Post
I didn't bring up critic ratings. He did.

But here's the top 12 superhero movies of RT:


1) The Dark Knight - 94%

2) Spider-man 2 - 94%

3) Iron Man - 94%

4) Superman (78) - 93%

5) The Avengers - 92%

6) Spider-man - 89%

7) X2 - 88%

8) Superman 2 - 88%

9) The Dark Knight Rises - 87%

10) X-men First Class - 87%

11) Batman Begins - 85%

12) X-men - 82%


That's a reasonable list most fanboys would mostly agree with, so lets not pretend RT critic ratings have absolutely no merit.

Either way SM3 is the worst Spider-man movie based on critic reviews and user ratings just about everywhere the same way SM2 has better reviews and user ratings than SM1. But I'm sure that has no merit either.
But just because it's lower doesn't mean it's universally hated. If you want to just go by their position on the list, I can say "Batman Begins was the WORST Batman movie in that series" simply because it is lower than the other two.
Spider-Man 3 is lower than the others but that by no means makes it bad.

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Old 12-15-2013, 12:48 PM   #74
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Default Re: Who is to blame for Spider-Man 3?

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The original plan was they were gonna make Sandman and Vulture be old cellmates. This could have worked because they would have been connected right from the start and would have shared scenes together. That's two story arcs going on instead of three completely unrelated ones. With Sandman and Venom it was basically "You hate Spider-man. I hate Spider-man. Let's team-up!".

Vulture's also less complicated than Venom and would have started out as a pure evil villain. He also would have manipulated Sandman into committing crimes. Which would have made Sandman's villainous actions make more sense. SM3 makes him out to be not such as bad guy, but not only does he attack civilians and policemen, he also goes along with a plot to kidnap an innocent woman just so he could kill Spider-man. Removing Vulture's manipulation just made him look like a douche.

We also missed out on what could have been an epic air battle between Harry and Vulture.
Yes to all of this.

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Old 12-18-2013, 06:34 PM   #75
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Default Re: Who is to blame for Spider-Man 3?

Since Avi Arad forced Raimi to have Venom in SM3,Raimi should of just made Harry Venom,where Harry gets the suit from Oscorp.Harry would of gotten his revenge,and the movie wouldn't of been so cluttered.

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