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Old 01-02-2014, 08:34 AM   #51
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Default Re: The "Keep Hope Alive" (that the rights can revert back to Marvel) thread - Part

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You don't think their consultants and financial analysts are exhausting all those options right now? You honestly think only fanboys posting on SuperHeroHype are the most rational business people when it comes to comicbook film adaptations?


Where did I say anything even close to that? I was responding to a specifically stated concern that Fox wouldn't agree to work with Marvel because they would have to give up too much control, and I was simply illustrating that they could work together with a deal that would allow Fox to retain a reasonable level of control.

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Old 01-02-2014, 09:04 AM   #52
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Where did I say anything even close to that? I was responding to a specifically stated concern that Fox wouldn't agree to work with Marvel because they would have to give up too much control, and I was simply illustrating that they could work together with a deal that would allow Fox to retain a reasonable level of control.
So both parties do not have rational, mature adults working at the top of those industries brokering those kinds of deals? My point is, whatever you've mentioned or proposed has already been put on the table, and more than likely it was scoffed at. You acknowledge this power struggle, yet your proposal includes Fox giving up significant creative control. Filmmakers can't make a film tied under that kind of red tape. The entire project collapses and all you have are wasted dollars and financial bombs. There is slim to no chance a deal can be made that includes simultaneous creative input from producers at different companies. Can you imagine Trank having to answer to Disney? "K Josh, we need this FF film out in 2017. We need to include (Blank) character to setup up his solo film at Disney in 2018. Then we need to fast track the sequel at Fox since we are losing profits to Disney... yada yada." It doesn't work that way. If there is a deal to be made, it will be one party exclusively maintaining creative rights for films in exchange for merchandising or marketing/distribution. Otherwise it's a completely destructive process in which the filmmaker has no chance to succeed.


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Old 01-02-2014, 09:32 AM   #53
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Default Re: The "Keep Hope Alive" (that the rights can revert back to Marvel) thread - Part

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So both parties do not have rational, mature adults working at the top of those industries brokering those kinds of deals?
I will bet my left nut that some of the individuals involved are not basing all of their decisions on logic and the bottom line. Emotions get involved at every level of every negotiation at every work-place.

But that belief falls fall short of the extreme opinion you put in my mouth and then argued against. I never claimed that those negotiations weren't taking place. On the contrary, I hope that the recent back-pedaling regarding an FF/X-Men crossover could indicate more interesting possilities are being discussed.

The idea that Fox needs nothing short of complete control is silly since they don't have that now. And in the scenerio I suggested, Fox would not give up any control. They would have the right of refusal at any step along the way.

In my scenerio, Marvel would be offering free story consulting and Fox would either say: "Yes we like that idea and will inorporate it." or "No, that won't work."

My scenerio would open a door for future negotiation and character sharing that could be decided on a case-by-case basis, but it wouldn't negate any existing agreements or take any rights away from either party unless they agreed to share those specific rights.

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Old 01-02-2014, 10:32 AM   #54
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Default Re: The "Keep Hope Alive" (that the rights can revert back to Marvel) thread - Part

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Million dollar question aint it? Not sure if Disney would be too wiling to negotiate much with Fox at all at the moment, nor do they need to in truth.

The ball is in Fox's court with this one. They will either make the film or they won't, but I can't see the mouse negotiating anything with them here. Case of 'put up or shut up' I think.
I think the answer is a solid "no". The merchandising rights for Fantastic Four movies are largely worthless without good movies to attach to them. Sony could sell them the merchandising rights both because of much more cordial relations, because they have actual value ( Spider-man being a powerful movie franchise already ), and because there wasn't any prospect of regaining the license anyway.

With Fox and the Fantastic Four:
1. Marvel does not like Fox, and the feeling is mutual
2. The merchandising rights aren't worth much
3. There is quite the prospect of the license reverting
4. Marvel doesn't want an extra chunk of money ( they can get that elsewhere ), they want the characters to use

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Old 01-02-2014, 11:45 AM   #55
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Default Re: The "Keep Hope Alive" (that the rights can revert back to Marvel) thread - Part

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I think the answer is a solid "no". The merchandising rights for Fantastic Four movies are largely worthless without good movies to attach to them
.
And when did we assume that Fox owned the merchandising rights outright? While they have some rights, no merchandising of Marvels IP will be done without Marvels approval and thats where those rights hit a brick wall. When was the last time you saw a X-Men movie tie in action figure at your local Walmart?

As far as this FF movie goes for all the debates for and against the making of this Movie the one question remains? WILL THIS MOVIE MAKE ANY MONEY AT THE BOX OFFICE??? And that is where the negotiating ends. Marvel can take the FF and make a BLOCKBUSTER. Fox and only make a BLOCK-BUSTED. The FF isn't a movie that you can make with a sub $150 Mil budget. Any fool (or Fanboy) can see that making this movie (that may even turn out to be a decent film) with respect to competition a week before and that Fox clearly does not have the same marketing punch to make this happen that Marvel has. So Fox really should make like a happy Paramount Pictures and take a cut from the B.O and let Marvel take over from here. Thats their only move and they should of did that 4 years ago instead of announcing the reboot for themselves. The FF is like Thor's Hammer. It's not gonna work for you (Fox) as it works for him (Marvel) who is "Worthy"

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Old 01-02-2014, 01:56 PM   #56
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Default Re: The "Keep Hope Alive" (that the rights can revert back to Marvel) thread - Part

I agree that this thing will look comical in 2015 compared to the likes of Avengers and BvS with a sub 150 Mil budget. The GA will in no way shape or form invest the time or money with the kind of choices it has that season. It will be an afterthought. Look at First Class in a year where you had a bunch of C-list characters competing with it. Yeah it was a good movie, good enough to go forward with DoFP. But let's be honest, DoFP is riding the coat tails of the OT, not FC. And FC was best case scenario for Fox in terms of critical success, and not something that can easily be duplicated, plus the fact that it's a reboot which audiences are quite frankly tired of. This movie will be lucky to break even in 2015 given the competition. You need to give a FF reboot the proper platform and the best chance to suceed. I think Fox would take a distribution deal in a nanosecond, but maybe Marvel felt burned by Paramount and Universal when they started this whole thing back in 06-07. If that's the case, it's nothing but greed. I actually thought Paramount did wonders marketing the pre-Avengers movies, and Universal did best with the material they had. Paramount seemed to make out like bandits after all that, and we know Disney is more than capable of handling the distribution and marketing of these films. So what deal are we talking about exactly that would make sense for both parties? If there is a sensible one, I haven't heard it yet, aside from fanboy wishful thinking.


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Old 01-04-2014, 12:08 AM   #57
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Default Re: The "Keep Hope Alive" (that the rights can revert back to Marvel) thread - Part

Whatever buzz the reboot had is all but gone now. My birthday is in March. If I hear nothing up to that point, I'll personally consider that a birthday present.

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Old 01-04-2014, 03:59 AM   #58
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Default Re: The "Keep Hope Alive" (that the rights can revert back to Marvel) thread - Part

I'd would cry tears of joy if I heard news this property would revert back to Marvel Studios, and not even in anticipation of an FF movie, but more due to the incredible cosmic element that the FF gallery could add to future Marvel Cosmic films, and the possibility of a proper Silver Surfer film.

So when is the concrete deadline, and how little do they need to keep their grubby hands on the franchise?

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Old 01-04-2014, 08:45 AM   #59
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Default Re: The "Keep Hope Alive" (that the rights can revert back to Marvel) thread - Part

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I'd would cry tears of joy if I heard news this property would revert back to Marvel Studios, and not even in anticipation of an FF movie, but more due to the incredible cosmic element that the FF gallery could add to future Marvel Cosmic films, and the possibility of a proper Silver Surfer film.

So when is the concrete deadline, and how little do they need to keep their grubby hands on the franchise?
Unfortunately we do not know when the the deadline is. Both parties have consistently kept those details a guarded secret, but we can guestimate from the previous reversion example set by Daredevil, which would place the deadline at maybe around early 2015 (might be sooner, but I'd say at least by then so as not to get too hopeful)

To keep the franchise they need to have the film begin proper production before/by that deadline (cameras actually rolling) and they have to make sure that whatever they make gets a proper theatrical release as well, so they cant just knock any old crap out to keep the rights, like the Roger Corman flick tried to: It has to be a proper film they have to spend a lot of money on one way or another.

All we can do is wait and see what happens.

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Old 01-04-2014, 02:39 PM   #60
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Default Re: The "Keep Hope Alive" (that the rights can revert back to Marvel) thread - Part

Thanks for the answer, ultimately the strategy here is not to hold our collective breaths on this one.

I wish they could retroactively regain the rights because of the Corman film being a piece of crap.

Couldn't some lawyer say that being as it wasn't a proper use of the property that it doesn't count, and somehow then say the two FF films released later were possible by illegitimate means, force Fox to pay the box office grosses for those two turds to Marvel Studios, as well as the rights reverting?

That be amazing.

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Old 01-04-2014, 03:54 PM   #61
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Default Re: The "Keep Hope Alive" (that the rights can revert back to Marvel) thread - Part

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Thanks for the answer, ultimately the strategy here is not to hold our collective breaths on this one.

I wish they could retroactively regain the rights because of the Corman film being a piece of crap.

Couldn't some lawyer say that being as it wasn't a proper use of the property that it doesn't count, and somehow then say the two FF films released later were possible by illegitimate means, force Fox to pay the box office grosses for those two turds to Marvel Studios, as well as the rights reverting?

That be amazing.
As I understand it the Corman flick was a deal with someone else (Contantine films?) Corman started shooting that crap on a minimal budget about a day or two before the deadline for that one expired, and Marvel did sue them as it was obviously not suitable for theatrical release (and the producers never intended to release it either, something the cast knew nothing about), and Marvel got any copies they could find literally burnt (at least one survived to torment/amuse/bemuse later generations though...I have seen it myself ).

The deal with Fox was (afaik) a different one though, with marvel now having creative input, their own producer on-board (would have been Avi Arid back then I think), script access, access to the dalies etc, to prevent any repeat of a studio trying to pull that 'ashcan' stunt again.

Edit: On further reading it was the same company, who later worked with Fox as Constantin films were also producers for the 2005 and 2007 ones. Also, they were not sued (though all available prints were destroyed). From what the I've read the Constantin producers claim they were gonna release the Corman film as they were not contractually obliged by the original deal made with Lee to 'make a big movie' (so the SOB's were happy with that crap...), but Marvel seeing a disaster coming paid them off to have it destroyed.

In 1999 Fox were granted extensions on the properties they'd been sitting on (the FF being one of them, so Fox had presumably taken control over the rights held by Constantin by then?). This would explain why the deal was still standing and they could still be involved when the film began shooting in 2004 (and greater input from Marvel as well), suggesting the timeframe of somewhere between 7 and 8 years on these deals would be about right. No idea if Constantin films are still involved in any way now though.

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Old 01-05-2014, 07:33 PM   #62
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Default Re: The "Keep Hope Alive" (that the rights can revert back to Marvel) thread - Part

Trank's one film track record can't compete with Jurassic Park or Pixar's weakest film. Which why this switch from April to June doesn't better their chances for a profit let alone a legitimate Summer hit.

As for Fox announcing Apocalypse, that's just more of Singer/Fox's shameless piggybacking than it is any kind of spite. They're more desperate than WB/DC is.

And as much as I would love to see Apocalypse on film I have no faith in Fox doing this character justice. I'm mean other than Magneto look at their overall Marvel rogue gallery track record and tell me why Fox making Apocalypse is good news?

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Old 01-05-2014, 08:19 PM   #63
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Default Re: The "Keep Hope Alive" (that the rights can revert back to Marvel) thread - Part

Count me as one of the ones that would like the rights to revert to Marvel.

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Old 01-06-2014, 03:29 AM   #64
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Default Re: The "Keep Hope Alive" (that the rights can revert back to Marvel) thread - Part

Thanks again for the detailed information wobbly.
Just imagine, the possibility of a well casted, menacing Doctor Doom.

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Old 01-06-2014, 11:29 AM   #65
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Default Re: The "Keep Hope Alive" (that the rights can revert back to Marvel) thread - Part

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Thanks again for the detailed information wobbly.
Just imagine, the possibility of a well casted, menacing Doctor Doom.

Your second sentence is a dream of mine come true...but I am so worried that it will never happen...as awesome as Thanos is (one of my favorites), how can Marvel NOT want to have their number one created villain in their hands...a whole "Phase" devoted to the threat of Doom and Latveria.

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Old 01-10-2014, 01:01 PM   #66
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Count me as one of the ones that would like the rights to revert to Marvel.
Yeah you and just about everyone else. Including mwah.

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Old 01-13-2014, 11:53 AM   #67
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Default Re: The "Keep Hope Alive" (that the rights can revert back to Marvel) thread - Part

With the Fox filming date pushed yet again to March 31st I would say hope that the FF come back home to Marvel is very much alive.

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Old 01-14-2014, 03:19 AM   #68
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So now with Michael Douglas cast as an aged modern day Pym, we might see the 60's Antman flashback scene that Wright was talking about a while ago as being in the movie.

And what if this happens?

Along with 60's young Antman, we get 60's young Wasp in that flashback, plus a 60's version of SHIELD... young Fury, Dum Dum Dugan, other Howling Commandos, maybe elements of the Invaders team. Short scene tho, maybe 10-12 minutes of Antman.

Marvel gets back FF rights and drops an FF film set in the 60's. Basic origin takes up most of it, main villain, of course, Mole Man. but the movie is mainly setting up FF and family dynamic. maybe Doom is introduced. this would be going on sometime in Phase 3, maybe like 2018. cuz Phase 3 will be longer, with Avengers 3 coming out in 2019 or 2020.

then we get a whole set of MCU movies, 60's based, a SHIELD/Invaders movie, another FF movie, maybe 2 more. they could maybe even do a Skrulls invasion, 60's style.

eventually FF goes up against Kang, Doom is involved and ends up following them thru time, and both FF and Doom emerge in modern day MCU, sometime like 2024 or so.

that'd be crazy. i don't think i'd be able to control how happy i'd be if this were to happen. i'd go crazy.

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Old 01-14-2014, 03:24 AM   #69
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cuz the whole career of the FF in the 60's would only span like 3 or 4 years. They would be separate from SHIELD, but not the public darlings like they are in the comioc books. They'd be weird and keep to the Baxter Building.

so by the time of Iron Man, people would remember these weird stories about this Fantastic Four. But it would be chalked up to Cold War propaganda and explained by moon landing type movie effects or CIA hypnotic memory experiments. All purely the domain of tin foil hats.

cuz the 60's MCU movies would be all spooked out, clandestine and going on underneath the public's actual news radar. Things would inevitably be reported, but they'd be strange anomaly type incidents and no one would connect them with each other really. and then that would really add something more to Tony's decision in Iron Man 1 to just go public. this would be the moment that things were forever changed and these kind of happenings started actually being impossible to keep out of the public's awareness.

And it could almost be like whatever the FF dragged thru time with them, would've taken all the superhuman or superweird elements of earth for a little while, kinda buying some time for SHIELD and the human race, until new elements reemerged around the time of Iron Man. Just to basically explain why the appearance of super powered individuals around the time of Iron Man was considered to be a new phenomena.

So when they popped up in the present day, they'd be bringing along a whole mess of trouble right behind them, the kind that the world's never had to deal with before.

In fact, I'd like it better if Doom was introduced in 60's but when FF disappeared thru time with Kang, they took something with them, that was essential to his plans, something that he needed more than power itself even. And so he would basically go into hibernation in Latveria, just being a non-attention attracting tyrant of East Europe, biding his time until they got back, which he would already know when this would occur.

So when they popped up in modern day MCU, Doom would be waiting to go all out on them and get back whatever thing he needed.

jesus, god. this would be so rad. please let Marvel be able to do this.

I was supporting Trank directing the FF reboot until this just occurred to me a couple days ago, that if FF reverted, there'd be some chance we could have something like this.


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Old 01-14-2014, 08:01 AM   #70
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Default Re: The "Keep Hope Alive" (that the rights can revert back to Marvel) thread - Part

I don't think they would do a full feature film in the 60's though. Yeah, you have Pym in that time period. Probably Wasp. And yes, the FF origin does work well in the 60's with the space age. But I do like the time travel concept, where the team mysteriously disappears some time in the late 60's or 70's. You could explain that the heroes were exploring some time continuum and then some ominous event occurs that traps them in the Negative Zone. Then they return in the modern day via time travel (Einstein relatavistic effects). I do want them to have their powers alongside other Marvel heroes in the 60's, so maybe this mission occurs after they gain their powers and have celebrity status for a few years, until their disappearance. This way, the public knows that superpowered beings can exist, but since the F4 disappeared so early in their career, they have fallen to mythical status in the ensuing decades, until the advent of the Avengers. I think MCU can learn from X-Men in that they can expand on some MCU history, though not be bogged down completely by it. So the origin movie could be a period piece like Captain America, although I'd tell that part via flashbacks instead of a full feature. One of my dream MCU scenes is a young Tony Stark meeting Reed Richards for the first time in the early 70's. Think a scene like that can work REALLY well.

Of course first things first, the rights have to lapse.


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Old 01-14-2014, 10:21 AM   #71
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jesus, god. this would be so rad. please let Marvel be able to do this.

I was supporting Trank directing the FF reboot until this just occurred to me a couple days ago, that if FF reverted, there'd be some chance we could have something like this.
This is actually a fantastic idea. You could have three periods of MCU mythology: The Golden Age, the Silver Age and the Modern Age.

The Silver Age totally fits the tone of the FF. The FF would not overlap with the Avengers. It would explain why they weren't there to help with the Chitauri invasion. Plus Reed and gang were always time traveling like crazy. This could totally work.

There is nothing Fox could do that could possibly be this awesome.

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Old 01-14-2014, 10:55 AM   #72
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Default Re: The "Keep Hope Alive" (that the rights can revert back to Marvel) thread - Part

I hope Janet isn't in the 60s that'd piss me off and limit her greatly.. She needs to be an avenger.

I loathe the idea of the fantastic four being stuck there as well...

Its quite obvious anyway in the mcu that this is the first time the public has seen people like this...

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Old 01-14-2014, 11:16 AM   #73
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Its quite obvious anyway in the mcu that this is the first time the public has seen people like this...
This is one of my biggest concerns with this news.

Yeah, sure, everyone knew about Captain America...but he was just a really strong soldier that everyone revered. Nothing overtly bizarre.

You'd think that a guy growing and shrinking to ridiculous proportions would have garnered quite a bit of publicity and recognition. Unless, of course, he operated in secrecy.

I just don't know...

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Old 01-14-2014, 11:17 AM   #74
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Default Re: The "Keep Hope Alive" (that the rights can revert back to Marvel) thread - Part

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So now with Michael Douglas cast as an aged modern day Pym, we might see the 60's Antman flashback scene that Wright was talking about a while ago as being in the movie.

And what if this happens?

Along with 60's young Antman, we get 60's young Wasp in that flashback, plus a 60's version of SHIELD... young Fury, Dum Dum Dugan, other Howling Commandos, maybe elements of the Invaders team. Short scene tho, maybe 10-12 minutes of Antman.

Marvel gets back FF rights and drops an FF film set in the 60's. Basic origin takes up most of it, main villain, of course, Mole Man. but the movie is mainly setting up FF and family dynamic. maybe Doom is introduced. this would be going on sometime in Phase 3, maybe like 2018. cuz Phase 3 will be longer, with Avengers 3 coming out in 2019 or 2020.

then we get a whole set of MCU movies, 60's based, a SHIELD/Invaders movie, another FF movie, maybe 2 more. they could maybe even do a Skrulls invasion, 60's style.

eventually FF goes up against Kang, Doom is involved and ends up following them thru time, and both FF and Doom emerge in modern day MCU, sometime like 2024 or so.

that'd be crazy. i don't think i'd be able to control how happy i'd be if this were to happen. i'd go crazy.
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Old 01-14-2014, 11:41 AM   #75
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I hope Janet isn't in the 60s that'd piss me off and limit her greatly.. She needs to be an avenger.
Yeah I agree with you here. To me it's more important that Jan become an Avenger than Pym. I have no idea how they plan to address this.

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I loathe the idea of the fantastic four being stuck there as well...
Well the FF thing is just brainstorming but I think the idea has legs. There's always alternate timelines - that sort of thing and the FF are always time traveling so they could still end up in the modern era. But the FF are also spacefaring adventurers - perhaps their initial adventures don't even happen on Earth? Perhaps traveling at the speed of light could age the world faster than them upon their return (ala Buck Rogers). I don't think the FF would have as hard a time adjusting to the modern world from the 60's as Cap would from the 40's. I could see Reed loving the technology advancements of modern day. That trope of bringing characters from the past into modern times could get old though... Cap, Winter Soldier, Red Skull(??), Strucker, Arnim Zola, Zemo (???) but at least space travel makes more sense than being frozen in ice.

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Its quite obvious anyway in the mcu that this is the first time the public has seen people like this...
In Thor, Erik Selvig mentioned that he had a friend (i.e. Pym - but Marvel didn't want to name drop at that point) that had had dealings with SHIELD so I'm sure whatever Pym was involved in was likely pretty top secret. We also don't know how much of the Giant-Man persona Hank Pym adopted in this universe. Certainly shrinking to the size of an ant would not attract any attention. In the Silver Age comics I remember Ant-Man sneaking around and popping up unexpectedly in all sorts of places.


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