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Old 01-14-2014, 11:54 AM   #76
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Default Re: The "Keep Hope Alive" (that the rights can revert back to Marvel) thread - Part

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This is one of my biggest concerns with this news.

Yeah, sure, everyone knew about Captain America...but he was just a really strong soldier that everyone revered. Nothing overtly bizarre.

You'd think that a guy growing and shrinking to ridiculous proportions would have garnered quite a bit of publicity and recognition. Unless, of course, he operated in secrecy.

I just don't know...
super tech has always been there thanks to howard stark. But, I don't think Pym has been running around playing the role as hero. There's lots of science and technology being developed that's just not public use today so the public isnt very aware of it.

the fantastic four though are FAR more public

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Old 01-14-2014, 12:45 PM   #77
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Default Re: The "Keep Hope Alive" (that the rights can revert back to Marvel) thread - Part

I don't think I'd like to exile the Fantastic Four to the 60s. What I could see being done is put Nathaniel Richards as part of the 60s era cohort, getting involved in various secret science adventures ( including some that even SHIELD doesn't know about or doesn't believe ).

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Old 01-14-2014, 12:52 PM   #78
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Default Re: The "Keep Hope Alive" (that the rights can revert back to Marvel) thread - Part

Yeah but no one would be interested in a film about Nate Richards and his 60's cohorts. I think a Pym movie in his prime would be just as hard to sell. You need a marquee team/character to sell a movie in that period.

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Old 01-14-2014, 12:59 PM   #79
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Default Re: The "Keep Hope Alive" (that the rights can revert back to Marvel) thread - Part

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Yeah but no one would be interested in a film about Nate Richards and his 60's cohorts. I think a Pym movie in his prime would be just as hard to sell. You need a marquee team/character to sell a movie in that period.
I agree. Save that for shield flash backs or the rumored Peggy carter show

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Old 01-14-2014, 01:10 PM   #80
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Default Re: The "Keep Hope Alive" (that the rights can revert back to Marvel) thread - Part

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super tech has always been there thanks to howard stark. But, I don't think Pym has been running around playing the role as hero. There's lots of science and technology being developed that's just not public use today so the public isnt very aware of it.

the fantastic four though are FAR more public
Hmmm you make a good point. The celebrity status of the Fantastic Four could pose a problem. Nick Fury did say to Tony "You think you're the only superhero in the world?" but a well known quartet of characters from 40 years ago that could stretch, turn invisible, shoot fire and throw cars around might make that statement ridiculous. (And yet there is the original Human Torch in the display at the expo during Captain America...)

If the FF are introduced then perhaps it would indeed have to be during modern times. They could introduce them as celebrities in the 60s and have them disappear on a space voyage or something only to reappear in modern times but what would be the point?

If Marvel had the FF in their stable of characters from the beginning they could've planned around it better but as it is they have to work with what they got. This is why the rights need to come home sooner than later so the proper foundation can be laid.

I do like the Nathaniel Richards idea but agree it wouldn't work as a standalone effort. Flashbacks might work for that sort of thing.

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Old 01-14-2014, 01:57 PM   #81
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Default Re: The "Keep Hope Alive" (that the rights can revert back to Marvel) thread - Part

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Hmmm you make a good point. The celebrity status of the Fantastic Four could pose a problem. Nick Fury did say to Tony "You think you're the only superhero in the world?" but a well known quartet of characters from 40 years ago that could stretch, turn invisible, shoot fire and throw cars around might make that statement ridiculous. (And yet there is the original Human Torch in the display at the expo during Captain America...)

If the FF are introduced then perhaps it would indeed have to be during modern times. They could introduce them as celebrities in the 60s and have them disappear on a space voyage or something only to reappear in modern times but what would be the point?

If Marvel had the FF in their stable of characters from the beginning they could've planned around it better but as it is they have to work with what they got. This is why the rights need to come home sooner than later so the proper foundation can be laid.

I do like the Nathaniel Richards idea but agree it wouldn't work as a standalone effort. Flashbacks might work for that sort of thing.
I think we and Marvel can hope they'll have these problems to deal with.

But I don't think they should get hung up on small, seemingly contradictory details that resulted from not knowing where everything was going to go at the time - Marvel certainly shouldn't be limiting their universe because of a few lines in previous films that might seem awkward. Better to say 'oops' than 'Oh well, I guess we can't build what we'd like to build.'

The Marvel Comic Universe has always been pan-epochal, and the film universe should mirror that (and has already laid that ground-work with Captain America). As Marvel continues to make films, I think we'll see them slide into a reality in which superheroes are and always have been part of everyday life - just like the comics.

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Old 01-14-2014, 02:47 PM   #82
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Default Re: The "Keep Hope Alive" (that the rights can revert back to Marvel) thread - Part

I disagree. That concept doesn't just ignore minor concepts but detracts from some of the wonder of these characters and this world. It also severely messes with continuity especially for the shield show

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Old 01-14-2014, 02:49 PM   #83
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no see the FF would be secret back then, according to this weird little plan.

but they'd just keep to the Baxter Building. When they ever did end up publically using their powers, people didn't have cellphones, maybe there'd be pictures but it'd be like the Loch Ness Monster or stuff like that. Maybe only once in their whole careers would they end up in New York fighting in the middle of daylight. And everyone who saw would be ... "Woah, that was crazy". but it'd never happen again and it'd just be chalked up to god knows what.

One of the things I love about that is then you could let the Thing do his creepy trenchcoat and hat, scaring lovers in the park routine. Thing needs to be repulsive. He's called Thing. haha. what a name for a superhero. So great.

but aside from that, their careers would only last for a few years, before they got sucked into interdimensional adventure. So it would barely register with people.

Regardless, I think they'll explain Antman like that, like Hank Pym's not gonna have a whole career fighting crime or anything. He's gonna be covert and barely popping out much. Hank Pym's actual psychology doesn't lend itself to consistently being Antman anyways. not a Hank thread so won't talk much about it here, but he's a tripper.

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Old 01-14-2014, 02:52 PM   #84
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Default Re: The "Keep Hope Alive" (that the rights can revert back to Marvel) thread - Part

i'd never heard of Nathaniel Richards too. I wanna look that up.

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Old 01-14-2014, 03:40 PM   #85
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Default Re: The "Keep Hope Alive" (that the rights can revert back to Marvel) thread - Part

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I disagree. That concept doesn't just ignore minor concepts but detracts from some of the wonder of these characters and this world. It also severely messes with continuity especially for the shield show
The Shield show has been a huge disappointment to me. I'd like to see future films pushing the limits and trying to capture some of the spectacle of the comics. Agents of Shield doesn't even seem to be set in the Marvel Universe (I keep waiting for some actual superheroes, but I'm disappointed and left wanting after each episode).

I'd rather see them pushing the limits rather than constrained by a low-budget TV show, but that's just my opinion and I respect yours.

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Old 01-14-2014, 05:06 PM   #86
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Default Re: The "Keep Hope Alive" (that the rights can revert back to Marvel) thread - Part

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The Shield show has been a huge disappointment to me. I'd like to see future films pushing the limits and trying to capture some of the spectacle of the comics. Agents of Shield doesn't even seem to be set in the Marvel Universe (I keep waiting for some actual superheroes, but I'm disappointed and left wanting after each episode).

I'd rather see them pushing the limits rather than constrained by a low-budget TV show, but that's just my opinion and I respect yours.
I don't think that was the point of the show. I remember from the beginning that Joss said it was not about superheroes but about the everyday average Joes that have to share the world with all these superheroes and how they are affected by all of it.

I like the show. It's got a lot of untapped potential. I don't get the hate. Yeah it's got its problems but I think the show is steadily improving and am looking forward to what's next. It's got some neat concepts too. I thought the episode that explored the idea of an Asgardian living for centuries among humans was pretty rad.

Anyhow if it doesn't continue to improve by the second season I might start to lose interest but I'm not giving up on it yet.

The thing is this- it's not the only show we're getting either. There's going to be Agent Carter which I bet will include characters like Howard Stark and Dum Dum Dugan. And now some marquee comic characters are getting their own standalone series as well: Daredevil, Luke Cage, Iron Fist and Jessica Jones. As a fan how can you not like this?

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Old 01-14-2014, 05:15 PM   #87
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Default Re: The "Keep Hope Alive" (that the rights can revert back to Marvel) thread - Part

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I don't think that was the point of the show. I remember from the beginning that Joss said it was not about superheroes but about the everyday average Joes that have to share the world with all these superheroes and how they are affected by all of it.

I like the show. It's got a lot of untapped potential. I don't get the hate. Yeah it's got its problems but I think the show is steadily improving and am looking forward to what's next. It's got some neat concepts too. I thought the episode that explored the idea of an Asgardian living for centuries among humans was pretty rad.

Anyhow if it doesn't continue to improve by the second season I might start to lose interest but I'm not giving up on it yet.

The thing is this- it's not the only show we're getting either. There's going to be Agent Carter which I bet will include characters like Howard Stark and Dum Dum Dugan. And now some marquee comic characters are getting their own standalone series as well: Daredevil, Luke Cage, Iron Fist and Jessica Jones. As a fan how can you not like this?
yea, i think there's alot of people who didn't pay attention to what the show was clearly explaining it was about, and didn't judge the previews well enough, because i think they got their own hopes up about it. I had very low expectations after the first trailer of the show, and the show thankfully has gotten much better imo

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Old 01-14-2014, 08:26 PM   #88
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Default Re: The "Keep Hope Alive" (that the rights can revert back to Marvel) thread - Part

I guess if they treated it as a stand-alone and didn't try to connect it and piggy back off of the films, I might enjoy it more (though even then, I think it pales in comparison to shows like X-Files and Fringe).

But they have made the decision to try to take value from the films to try to pump up what is otherwise a fairly dull show. The price they're paying is a disappointed audience that saw the Helicarrier in Avengers and wants to see that Shield, but instead is getting group of kids playing with their computers and junior chemistry sets.

Maybe it's short sighted or selfish of me, but I feel it's their responsibility to give me a show that fits my expectations and not my responsibility to adjust my expectations to the show they're giving me.

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Old 01-14-2014, 09:54 PM   #89
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Default Re: The "Keep Hope Alive" (that the rights can revert back to Marvel) thread - Part

I dunno man this last episode was quite good. The show is what it is now, not what you hoped for (which is fine) but its coming into its own... And people are getting powers

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Old 01-14-2014, 11:17 PM   #90
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Yeah but no one would be interested in a film about Nate Richards and his 60's cohorts. I think a Pym movie in his prime would be just as hard to sell. You need a marquee team/character to sell a movie in that period.
Well, yes. That's why you don't make a movie about Nathaniel Richards in the 60s. You make a movie about the Fantastic Four in the present.

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Old 01-15-2014, 09:44 AM   #91
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The problem is a FF in tandem with the Avengers would just be overstuffing things in the modern day. And no I am not interested in a massive FF/Avengers/GotG vs Thanos movie. That is just overkill and something only ardent fanboys would get a hard on for. Plus it's sort of TOO convenient that all these heroes suddenly pop up in the 2000's once aliens start invading.

No, I don't think this MCU makes it obvious that superheroes never existed, even fantastical ones like The Thing and Torch. Fury's after credit scene with Stark? Non-issue. Fury only hints at the presence of superheroes, he doesn't say Stark is the first, and Iron Man clearly isn't.

The Hulk had been around for a few years before Iron Man. He was largely a mythical character until his battle with Abomination. While The Thing and Torch have similar unbelievability along with celebrity status, you can truly capture what the public's reaction was like to these first super powered beings, which Hulk and Thor failed to do.

The Agents of Shield show. Complete non-issue as TV audience does not represent a movie going audience, and that show isn't main stream in the least. Nothing in that show should have any bearing on full feature MCU films. No offense to those fans of the show, but that content is completely irrelevant.

Then look at the X-Men franchise. The continuity issues aside (many of which could have easily been avoided), the original trilogy makes it clear that mutants only recently appeared. Yet now with these prequels, it's clear that the public awareness of mutants was high well before the OT. The fact that superpowered beings existed decades earlier is something that can easily be retconned within the MCU and any resulting issues would be nitpicks that the audience will simply gloss over.

Of course you can have the FF origins take place after the Avengers films, as you launch a sort of modern day Space Age type of thing. But why leave someone like Hank Pym on an island in the 70's and 80's? It's not going to matter too much either way, but I think it's a great opportunity to tackle some of the overthetop characterizations you see in Fantastic Four by doing a period piece.


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Old 01-15-2014, 10:06 AM   #92
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Default Re: The "Keep Hope Alive" (that the rights can revert back to Marvel) thread - Part

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The problem is a FF in tandem with the Avengers would just be overstuffing things in the modern day. And no I am not interested in a massive FF/Avengers/GotG vs Thanos movie. That is just overkill and something only ardent fanboys would get a hard on for. Plus it's sort of TOO convenient that all these heroes suddenly pop up in the 2000's once aliens start invading.

No, I don't think this MCU makes it obvious that superheroes never existed, even fantastical ones like The Thing and Torch. Fury's after credit scene with Stark? Non-issue. Fury only hints at the presence of superheroes, he doesn't say Stark is the first, and Iron Man clearly isn't.

The Hulk had been around for a few years before Iron Man. He was largely a mythical character until his battle with Abomination. While The Thing and Torch have similar unbelievability along with celebrity status, you can truly capture what the public's reaction was like to these first super powered beings, which Hulk and Thor failed to do.

The Agents of Shield show. Complete non-issue as TV audience does not represent a movie going audience, and that show isn't main stream in the least. Nothing in that show should have any bearing on full feature MCU films. No offense to those fans of the show, but that content is completely irrelevant.

Then look at the X-Men franchise. The continuity issues aside (many of which could have easily been avoided), the original trilogy makes it clear that mutants only recently appeared. Yet now with these prequels, it's clear that the public awareness of mutants was high well before the OT. The fact that superpowered beings existed decades earlier is something that can easily be retconned within the MCU and any resulting issues would be nitpicks that the audience will simply gloss over.

Of course you can have the FF origins take place after the Avengers films, as you launch a sort of modern day Space Age type of thing. But why leave someone like Hank Pym on an island in the 70's and 80's? It's not going to matter to much either way, but I think it's a great opportunity to tackle some of the overthetop characterizations you see in Fantastic Four by doing a period piece.
I agree. If you consider the Agents of Shield show, for example, we know they live in a world in which Hulk, Thor, Cap. America and Iron Man exist, but except for a passing comment here or there, they don't spend much time talking about them. And there's nothing that would preclude The FF and other heroes existing as well as the ones that we know they know because we saw the film.

When we watch any film or TV show, we are getting a tiny chunk of their life. If someone followed me around with a camera to show some event in my life, it's very likely that I would never mention Barack Obama or Tom Cruise or Nelson Mandela.

That doesn't mean those people don't exist in my world. It just means that they weren't relevant to what was going on during the selected time the filming took place.

Consider how often the FF mention other heroes in their comic books. Sure, there is an occasional mention here or there, but other heroes are largely ignored even though we know they exist in that reality.

Fury's line is a bit of a problem, but as I said, there's no reason Marvel should limit themselves because of that one line. Edit it out of future editions. That's what George Lucas did whenever something didn't fit.

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Old 01-17-2014, 03:24 AM   #93
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I dunno man this last episode was quite good. The show is what it is now, not what you hoped for (which is fine) but its coming into its own... And people are getting powers
yes, i feel like the last 2 episodes, the ones after their hiatus started actually becoming what i sort of originally thought the show was gonna be, both tonally and quality wise.

it's actually decent TV.

there's some things about the writing that seem absolutely un-Marvel to me tho, even still. like when Coulson talks to Skye in that last episode, and her reaction. in slow motion, no less. but that reaction was just unrealisitic, it was not how human beings act at all. and Marvel Comics has always been really great, at their best, at nailing things on that level.

it's been constant throughout the show, too. ever since the pilot with the ending scene and the team not wanting to take out Mike. weird, weird things like that. those come off so bizarre to me. not human at all.

but yeah, it's gotten better and i'm actually looking forward to it now next week.

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Old 01-17-2014, 03:32 AM   #94
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I think it's a great opportunity to tackle some of the overthetop characterizations you see in Fantastic Four by doing a period piece.
yes! this is what appeals most to me about it too.

it's like a blank pass, becuz it's not modern day, and they could assume a whole set of other conventions for storytelling and how characters project themselves and relate to one another.

no more grounded, anything. costumes, pulp, action, real deal FF.

not explanations, expositions, tedious histories on everything, all that 'modern' stuff that drags things down. i don't think the modern audience is more sophisticated at all, i think it's more spoiled and picky and unable to see outside of it's own self.
and comic books are better told in an ungrounded way, if it's fun enough, people will drop all that and jump on for the ride. I think Avengers was great at that, after most people watched that, they didn't have a lot of questions and continuity beefs and plot holes to talk about. it was nice that people just shut up and watched a thing for once. at least for a while, for a long time, eventually that wears off and u hear the inevitable clamoring over such things, but that was definitely a nice break from it for once.

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Old 01-17-2014, 03:39 AM   #95
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I agree. If you consider the Agents of Shield show, for example, we know they live in a world in which Hulk, Thor, Cap. America and Iron Man exist, but except for a passing comment here or there, they don't spend much time talking about them. And there's nothing that would preclude The FF and other heroes existing as well as the ones that we know they know because we saw the film.

When we watch any film or TV show, we are getting a tiny chunk of their life. If someone followed me around with a camera to show some event in my life, it's very likely that I would never mention Barack Obama or Tom Cruise or Nelson Mandela.

That doesn't mean those people don't exist in my world. It just means that they weren't relevant to what was going on during the selected time the filming took place.

Consider how often the FF mention other heroes in their comic books. Sure, there is an occasional mention here or there, but other heroes are largely ignored even though we know they exist in that reality.

Fury's line is a bit of a problem, but as I said, there's no reason Marvel should limit themselves because of that one line. Edit it out of future editions. That's what George Lucas did whenever something didn't fit.
yes, totally. I see u write science fiction books, and it's very much like what they say related to that....

the best futuristic stories are told in the present.

i don't know, something like that.....and this relates to how the themes involved are really using the genre as a mask and actually relating to now...

but it also kinda means that when you're telling a story of the future or really any time, you tell it as if it was just a story happening now. like now is the future once you're there. so u leave out all the tour guide type explanations of everything, cuz u always assume that everyone knows what 'now' is.

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Old 01-17-2014, 07:44 AM   #96
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yes, i feel like the last 2 episodes, the ones after their hiatus started actually becoming what i sort of originally thought the show was gonna be, both tonally and quality wise.

it's actually decent TV.

there's some things about the writing that seem absolutely un-Marvel to me tho, even still. like when Coulson talks to Skye in that last episode, and her reaction. in slow motion, no less. but that reaction was just unrealisitic, it was not how human beings act at all. and Marvel Comics has always been really great, at their best, at nailing things on that level.

it's been constant throughout the show, too. ever since the pilot with the ending scene and the team not wanting to take out Mike. weird, weird things like that. those come off so bizarre to me. not human at all.

but yeah, it's gotten better and i'm actually looking forward to it now next week.
Well even Coulson was taken taken back by her reaction. So they addressed that in the episode. It should have made her world crumble apart, but instead it made her stronger

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Old 01-17-2014, 08:03 AM   #97
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yes, totally. I see u write science fiction books, and it's very much like what they say related to that....

the best futuristic stories are told in the present.

i don't know, something like that.....and this relates to how the themes involved are really using the genre as a mask and actually relating to now...

but it also kinda means that when you're telling a story of the future or really any time, you tell it as if it was just a story happening now. like now is the future once you're there. so u leave out all the tour guide type explanations of everything, cuz u always assume that everyone knows what 'now' is.
I think you just broke my head.

But yeah, one of the earliest FF stories involved time travel, and it's been a staple of the Marvel Universe ever since. And talented writers can always twist and bend things. Pre-existing stories are opportunities, not limitations.

Look at Rama Tut as a perfect example. I'm sure that Kirby and Lee had no intention of making Rama Tut be Nathaniel Richards when they first wrote the story, but if someone can find a way to make it work later, have fun with it.

This genre needs to be expansive - not limited by small details here or there. I think it's important to do these things right to have a very open mind and not worry too much about viewers questioning it or thinking something's silly.

The comic books became as successful as they were because they went over-the-top and challenged people's imagination and the films need to reflect that.

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Old 01-17-2014, 10:41 AM   #98
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Look at Rama Tut as a perfect example. I'm sure that Kirby and Lee had no intention of making Rama Tut be Nathaniel Richards when they first wrote the story, but if someone can find a way to make it work later, have fun with it.
*blink* Rama Tut isn't Nathaniel Richards. He's Kang.

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Old 01-17-2014, 11:36 AM   #99
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Default Re: The "Keep Hope Alive" (that the rights can revert back to Marvel) thread - Part

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*blink* Rama Tut isn't Nathaniel Richards. He's Kang.
Isn't Kang Nathaniel Richards?

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Old 01-17-2014, 12:22 PM   #100
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Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: France
Posts: 559
Default Re: The "Keep Hope Alive" (that the rights can revert back to Marvel) thread - Part

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Raven View Post
Isn't Kang Nathaniel Richards?
I thought too that Nathaniel Richards, Rama Tut, Iron Lad and Kang were only one character

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