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Old 01-17-2014, 01:24 PM   #101
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Default Re: The "Keep Hope Alive" (that the rights can revert back to Marvel) thread - Part

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*blink* Rama Tut isn't Nathaniel Richards. He's Kang.
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Isn't Kang Nathaniel Richards?
Yes. They're all linked in some way I've never followed completely:

http://marvel.wikia.com/Nathaniel_Ri...)_(Earth-6311)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kang_the_Conqueror

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Old 01-17-2014, 01:29 PM   #102
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Default Re: The "Keep Hope Alive" (that the rights can revert back to Marvel) thread - Part

I can't remember if I posted it, but I remember at least thinking back when someone was discussing rights and assuming Kang couldn't be claimed by Fox that, depending on the wording of the contract, Kang did technically appear first in FF as Rama Tut.

Can you imagine being the judge trying to work that out if they took it to court.

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Old 01-17-2014, 01:40 PM   #103
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Default Re: The "Keep Hope Alive" (that the rights can revert back to Marvel) thread - Part

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I thought too that Nathaniel Richards, Rama Tut, Iron Lad and Kang were only one character
They are (he is also Immortus as well), but there's also another (different) Nathaniel Richards, who is Reed's father. During Byrne's run on the FF it was revealed that Kangs Nathan was actually from that alternate timelime where Reeds father had been in (not sure if that one stuck as canon though).

Afaik the 2 Nathan's are not related (Kang's Nathaniel is from the 30th century), but Kang I think is meant to be a descendent from Doctor Doom?

The whole Kang/Immortus/Rama-Tut/Nathaniel thing is rather convoluted...

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Old 01-17-2014, 02:20 PM   #104
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Default Re: The "Keep Hope Alive" (that the rights can revert back to Marvel) thread - Part

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And talented writers can always twist and bend things. Pre-existing stories are opportunities, not limitations.

Look at Rama Tut as a perfect example. I'm sure that Kirby and Lee had no intention of making Rama Tut be Nathaniel Richards when they first wrote the story, but if someone can find a way to make it work later, have fun with it.

This genre needs to be expansive - not limited by small details here or there. I think it's important to do these things right to have a very open mind and not worry too much about viewers questioning it or thinking something's silly.

The comic books became as successful as they were because they went over-the-top and challenged people's imagination and the films need to reflect that.
yes! this is what i call a sneaky offshoot of the Primary Rule of Good HouseKeeping....

1. Leave The Room The Same Goddamn Way You Found It.

cuz for the most part, as a writer for a thing like a comic book, this is what you have to do. day in and day out, that's your assignment... you check into a room, u do what u need to there that night, then u check out of the room. and unless told to do otherwise, you leave the room the same goddamn way you found it.

A night in a room could be one issue, it could be 15, but unless told otherwise, that's your job.

But what happened, is some writers started to stuff things in the shower drain, or right outside the window, taped to the brick wall, or underneath the refrigerator you can get it with tongs and a suspenders strap.

but they'd whether consciously or not, start leaving junk in there and then later other writers would check in and start learning to look around for this junk. and they'd find it and be like, "oh wow, this is great, see how we can use this to make this and that happen?" and they would be so happy.

until it became almost like a common courtesy to leave junk in the room for the next guy. And this has been, for sure, the history of comic books, and i love that Marvel Studios has kind of adopted this into their films. where now, we got the Mandarin and Trevor. that's a thing screwed into a light bulb that some new guy can find and be like "wow, this is great, look at this, now we can do this...."

and there's that cool element of ad hoc, makeshift adding on to older things to make a new thing. it's like the whole premise of rap music too. rap music is just the same thing, guys checking out rooms that other guys (and gals, i don't mean to be exclusionary but just talking) have been in. comic books are so rad for this. retcons, re-retcons, takebacks, add ons, all that stuff.

and then it's evolved until you can get a guy like Whedon, who's like a Ghostbuster paranormal scientific agent class A, who checks into a room, but he brings a staff with him, and they check every goddam inch of that room to see what could possibly be left over that someone else hasn't found yet. they tear that room from bottom to top, knock on every wall, find every stud, check every pipe, every bulb, every drain, every nozzle and every floorboard. plus all the ceiling boards, tv's, radios, bibles, bed wheels, every possible thing.

he's like a facist in this way, he roots every secret and he dumps them all on the table and his staff leaves, and psychically, this little ghostbuster, waves around his little expertise arm and divines what pieces he needs to get his job done. he's like this secret finder X1000.

so it's interesting u brought that up cuz i've thought about that so much, recently. leave the room the same way you found it but hide something there for the next person who checks in. totally the history of comic books.

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Old 01-17-2014, 02:36 PM   #105
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Well even Coulson was taken taken back by her reaction. So they addressed that in the episode. It should have made her world crumble apart, but instead it made her stronger
no, it's not a logical explanation for it, but I call foul on the way she acted.

she cried?

she's been searching for her parents all this time, Coulson says, hey, we don't know what u are.... this whole team died defending you, and you were this thing that we don't even know what it is, you could be an alien, a robot, a monkey, a god, a dumb girl.... we just don't know.. it's a mystery.

this is the thing here... nobody would cry then. u don't cry. they cut to slow motion and she was crying. that is so false and not what human nature is, any possible form. there's no explanation for it, it just strikes the viewer as fake. as not true and as sentimental and manipulative. and that's what it was. it was like this tone deafness to how actual people act. and u can't get away with that and still be a good show. and still be a Marvel show.

Marvel knows humans, that's their whole claim to fame. Marvel has style, Marvel has wit, Marvel is real deal and got the goods on the human race. that's why i am a Marvel cat 100%. cuz Marvel rings true. end of day. and Marvel stuff that doesn't ring true, is outcast to me.

Marvel is T.Rex. DC is Gary Glitter.

that's an unfair analogy, haha, but exaggerated, it gets to how i feel about Marvel. and that scene is total ********. 100% it was. my gut was heaving when that scene happened. i wish they wouldn't have that kinda stuff cuz the show is really seriously getting better i think, but it's that fakey element of being a TV show that's messing it up.

it's like in the pilot that last scene when everyone has their guns trained on Mike, and people are crying? again, they're crying? that was over the top obvious, but what doesn't add up here? that's just not what humans do. humans do other things if they feel bad or conflicted in that situation, but they don't get all tender and start almost crying.

Skye should've heard what Coulson said, and first thing, is deep down in her, she would be excited. becuz this mystery was leading to an actual mystery and she might be anything. but there'd be this feeling of horror too and that's what would register more, but not be shown in the form of crying, it'd be like either denial or disassociation or something like trying to present yourself as a true agent and suck it up. something like that is what a human being would do. not cry. nobody would cry, ever in the whole universe unless they were some kind of total sociopath.

and deep down, she'd be excited. it wouldn't sink in and register til like later how meaningless this quest was and all the truly depressing things about this news, but even then she wouldn't cry about the news, she'd cry in a selfish way about her frustration and never being able to get an answer and being strung along from one thing to the next. what she did in that hallway, was just so bizarre that i can't even imagine how anyone could look at it with a straight face.

like if we're gonna play the scene straight, and maybe she is a sociopath, i don't know, but Coulson would be looking at her and going like... "ok, something's up here, we gotta put this one in that little jail room there." and next thing May would pop up, whack her in the head and knock her out. cuz it's bizarre and unreal behavior for any human to act like that. it's incredibly bad writing is what it is. and that's it. just incredibly bad writing. i don't know what the hell is going on with that show, but something aint right back there, haha. it's a big mess. u don't get things that bad unless something weird happened.

that's my read on it, at least.

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Old 01-17-2014, 02:50 PM   #106
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it's weird cuz the show is so great in certain ways, or at least works in certain ways, and then every once in a while, up pops this scene that totally seems like it was written by a complete sociopath.

like the hallway scene or the Mike scene in the pilot. or like these weird scenes where the music is totally not fitting what's going on, it's like the cue director is schizophrenic and having an episode. and it's like closeup on this, then cut to far back camera in the corner and then bizarre cut to ceiling POV and then back to close up on Coulson's face. it feels like that, but it's actually far weirder than just how i made it sound weird. cuz it's a simpler weirdness that feels crazy. inhuman. it's like that Peter Jackson LOTR gimmicky stuff but interpreted on a TV scale. and it's terrible. which is a shame cuz Gregg's acting has been incredible. he's such a trooper. that Magical Place episode was truly heart breaking to see him stretched out, begging to die. that was so great and it really hit u, cuz it was so well done. but to have things like that intercut with sociopathic directing like the scenes i'm talking about is messing that up.

it's like how an alien would come here and go, "well what would a good human do? let's see... a good human cries when it experiences bad things. so this is bad what Coulson is telling me, right? it's bad right? ok, yeah, it's bad.. so i should cry now, cuz that's what humans do when something bad happens. "

and so the alien cries. and then it looks around and goes "uhhh..... so i'm a good human and racism is bad right?" and it says " and plus i'm so crying about that but also i just want to add that it's terrible when other humans act like they are better than other humans becuz of their skin color. That's bad, i hate that too. I'm sad, but also i hate when that happens, that's so bad." haha. that's exactly what it's like.

c'mon. this isn't Whedon who's writing this crap. this isn't Marvel Comics... someone is responsible for this element, cuz it doesn't add up. it's like straight from the looney bin. people don't act like that, who thinks that they do? who are these people writing this show sometimes?


edit*****

u know what it is? it's like something Goyer would do. it's so hallmark of DC that kind of tonedeafness to human beings. it's so DC, so Goyer...
that hallway scene. that's why i have such a problem with it.

it's what people would pretend they'd do...

and not what they'd actually do.

Marvel should be about what people would actually do.


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Old 01-17-2014, 07:00 PM   #107
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Default Re: The "Keep Hope Alive" (that the rights can revert back to Marvel) thread - Part

I'd much rather see the FF take place in the present. Not the past.

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Old 01-18-2014, 01:06 PM   #108
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Default Re: The "Keep Hope Alive" (that the rights can revert back to Marvel) thread - Part

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no, it's not a logical explanation for it, but I call foul on the way she acted.

she cried?

she's been searching for her parents all this time, Coulson says, hey, we don't know what u are.... this whole team died defending you, and you were this thing that we don't even know what it is, you could be an alien, a robot, a monkey, a god, a dumb girl.... we just don't know.. it's a mystery.

this is the thing here... nobody would cry then. u don't cry. they cut to slow motion and she was crying. that is so false and not what human nature is, any possible form. there's no explanation for it, it just strikes the viewer as fake. as not true and as sentimental and manipulative. and that's what it was. it was like this tone deafness to how actual people act. and u can't get away with that and still be a good show. and still be a Marvel show.
... alright first off, you are aware "being sad" or having your life shatter isn't the only reason one cries right? Crying stems from emotion in general... and no matter if her life was crumbling, or not... finding out the truth about your life would be an incredibly emotional and cathartic experience. She's learning the truth about her life. Of course your going to cry. Topping it off with growing up feeling unwanted by everyone... only to learn an entire town (as well as agents you always thought you hated) cared for you soo much they sacrificed themselves for your safety. Of course she cried. Who wouldnt? I really hope you're capable of understanding that... but alas, some people really arn't capable of much human emotion

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Old 01-19-2014, 02:13 AM   #109
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... alright first off, you are aware "being sad" or having your life shatter isn't the only reason one cries right? Crying stems from emotion in general... and no matter if her life was crumbling, or not... finding out the truth about your life would be an incredibly emotional and cathartic experience. She's learning the truth about her life. Of course your going to cry. Topping it off with growing up feeling unwanted by everyone... only to learn an entire town (as well as agents you always thought you hated) cared for you soo much they sacrificed themselves for your safety. Of course she cried. Who wouldnt? I really hope you're capable of understanding that... but alas, some people really arn't capable of much human emotion
well we disagree. and no i wouldn't cry, and i really don't think you would either. that just wasn't human, in my opinion. that was so not what anyone would do.

unless they were a complete sociopath.

but we disagree obviously about things on a pretty fundamental level on that one. haha.


edit****** - wanted to add tho, yeah, i think a lot of people would cry later. for sure. and yeah, i know what u mean about not just crying over sadness, maybe i emphasized that in the wrong way. but sure crying can express a lot of things, but i still really think i'm right and that you're totally wrong. but that's just a disagreement, and u may be right, after all. even tho it's hard for me to believe that's possible, even, but i do have to admit that's how disagreement works. even tho i really doubt there's any chance of that being true.


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Old 01-19-2014, 03:12 AM   #110
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Default Re: The "Keep Hope Alive" (that the rights can revert back to Marvel) thread - Part

By definition, a sociopath would NOT cry pretty much under most circumstances. Therefore, Skye's reaction makes her in fact, not a sociopath. In fact, she is an empathetic character. I think the crying was a very fair reaction.

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Old 01-19-2014, 04:07 AM   #111
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Default Re: The "Keep Hope Alive" (that the rights can revert back to Marvel) thread - Part

Will Marvel ever get the rights to F4 back? In what scenario would this happen? I certainly hope it does one day and very soon.

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Old 01-19-2014, 05:14 AM   #112
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By definition, a sociopath would NOT cry pretty much under most circumstances. Therefore, Skye's reaction makes her in fact, not a sociopath. In fact, she is an empathetic character. I think the crying was a very fair reaction.
no, actually, sociopaths cry all the time. sociopaths are masters of mimicking the behavior of 'normal', unsociopathic people.

sure, there's incompetent sociopaths out there, but they aren't really thought of as sociopaths cuz they're so bad at it and never end up being able to get anything over on anyone else.

i'll really try to refrain from responding to any other response's to what i wrote about this, cuz i know it's off topic. i mean anyone who disagrees and wants to say so, then i hope they do, i'm not implying anything like that. but i just disagree and i really will refrain from responding back unless there's something really important i gotta say about it.

just want to say tho, that i can't possibly disagree more with both u and spideyboy, it's very much an unnatural reaction what we saw in that episode and i really believe it's something that Whedon would never write into anything, and it's something that, to me, totally flies counter to what I think is one of Marvel Comics strong points.... that they really understand characters and what being a human is like. not everything Marvel has ever done embodies this, not saying that. but that this is something that i think Marvel Comics excels at and that I associate with something feeling like a true product of Marvel Comics.

I'm only saying all that becuz scenes like that, specifically, are what makes me feel like the show is a stepchild... not even a stepchild, but a foreign exchange student. it's what makes the show feeel unMarvel to me.
=(^._.^)=

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Old 01-19-2014, 11:06 AM   #113
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Default Re: The "Keep Hope Alive" (that the rights can revert back to Marvel) thread - Part

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well we disagree. and no i wouldn't cry, and i really don't think you would either. that just wasn't human, in my opinion. that was so not what anyone would do.

unless they were a complete sociopath.

but we disagree obviously about things on a pretty fundamental level on that one. haha.


edit****** - wanted to add tho, yeah, i think a lot of people would cry later. for sure. and yeah, i know what u mean about not just crying over sadness, maybe i emphasized that in the wrong way. but sure crying can express a lot of things, but i still really think i'm right and that you're totally wrong. but that's just a disagreement, and u may be right, after all. even tho it's hard for me to believe that's possible, even, but i do have to admit that's how disagreement works. even tho i really doubt there's any chance of that being true.
um.. pretty sure id be balling. I think you need to re-check your emotional stability because it's kinda disturbing you don't get that range of human emotion.

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By definition, a sociopath would NOT cry pretty much under most circumstances. Therefore, Skye's reaction makes her in fact, not a sociopath. In fact, she is an empathetic character. I think the crying was a very fair reaction.
exactly

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no, actually, sociopaths cry all the time. sociopaths are masters of mimicking the behavior of 'normal', unsociopathic people.

sure, there's incompetent sociopaths out there, but they aren't really thought of as sociopaths cuz they're so bad at it and never end up being able to get anything over on anyone else.

i'll really try to refrain from responding to any other response's to what i wrote about this, cuz i know it's off topic. i mean anyone who disagrees and wants to say so, then i hope they do, i'm not implying anything like that. but i just disagree and i really will refrain from responding back unless there's something really important i gotta say about it.

just want to say tho, that i can't possibly disagree more with both u and spideyboy, it's very much an unnatural reaction what we saw in that episode and i really believe it's something that Whedon would never write into anything, and it's something that, to me, totally flies counter to what I think is one of Marvel Comics strong points.... that they really understand characters and what being a human is like. not everything Marvel has ever done embodies this, not saying that. but that this is something that i think Marvel Comics excels at and that I associate with something feeling like a true product of Marvel Comics.

I'm only saying all that becuz scenes like that, specifically, are what makes me feel like the show is a stepchild... not even a stepchild, but a foreign exchange student. it's what makes the show feeel unMarvel to me.
=(^._.^)=
no, sociopath's are completely out of touch with processing emotion. Most don't feel a thing when everyone else is crying around them. They lack empathy and emotional awareness..

the point in case, here reaction is "unnatural" to you. Because apparently you don't get it (which is slightly disturbing in its self) but it was certainly not "unnatural" in terms of human emotion. Any person who's studied human behavior will tell you the same thing.

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Old 01-19-2014, 02:19 PM   #114
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Default Re: The "Keep Hope Alive" (that the rights can revert back to Marvel) thread - Part

With BvS being moved I'd have to think Fox feels more comfortable than ever releasing it in the summer.

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Old 01-19-2014, 03:40 PM   #115
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Default Re: The "Keep Hope Alive" (that the rights can revert back to Marvel) thread - Part

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Will Marvel ever get the rights to F4 back? In what scenario would this happen? I certainly hope it does one day and very soon.
We have been discussing this at length, but unfortunately we're all just guessing at the details.

If Fox doesn't start filming soon, the rights should go back to Marvel, but we don't know if Fox needs to start in March, April, June . . . etc.

Right now Fox is apparently planning to start in March. If they miss that date, the chances increase that they could give up on the project. But if filming starts in March or soon thereafter, it would seem we'll be getting a film in Summer 2015 as planned. Once that happens, Fox should technically extend their rights until at least 2023.

Bottom line - within the next couple months, we should have much better clarity regarding how likely it is that Marvel might get the rights back prior to 2023.

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Old 01-19-2014, 03:48 PM   #116
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Default Re: The "Keep Hope Alive" (that the rights can revert back to Marvel) thread - Part

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With BvS being moved I'd have to think Fox feels more comfortable than ever releasing it in the summer.
The summer release date does seem less disastrous for FOX. However, what are the chances that Kinberg, Trank and company will have this thing ready to go by then? In some areas, such as casting, BvS seemed to be much further along and WB decided that a substantial delay was required. FOX may not have that luxury.

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Old 01-19-2014, 05:18 PM   #117
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Default Re: The "Keep Hope Alive" (that the rights can revert back to Marvel) thread - Part

they can alway delay until next summer. It's not like they have any pressure of time...

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Old 01-19-2014, 06:33 PM   #118
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Default Re: The "Keep Hope Alive" (that the rights can revert back to Marvel) thread - Part

Hopefully they just let it revert and focus on the x-verse.

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Old 01-19-2014, 08:53 PM   #119
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they can alway delay until next summer. It's not like they have any pressure of time...
Fox has already three tentpoles booked for next summer.

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Old 01-20-2014, 03:20 AM   #120
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no, sociopath's are completely out of touch with processing emotion. Most don't feel a thing when everyone else is crying around them. They lack empathy and emotional awareness..

the point in case, here reaction is "unnatural" to you. Because apparently you don't get it (which is slightly disturbing in its self) but it was certainly not "unnatural" in terms of human emotion. Any person who's studied human behavior will tell you the same thing.
:0) well, u must not be a sociopath then....
cuz we cry all the time, believe me, it's the first thing they teach u in sociopath school.

see, if we didn't cry, u guys would figure out who we are.
duh.

Anyways, second lesson, of course, is to act like it's slightly disturbing when other people don't cry...
you know? Call them 'unnatural' or something.

See cuz then you will seem even more empathetic and emotionally aware.

Then you will be well on your way to convincing everyone you are a 'caring person', which is gonna be important if you ever want them to trust you.
So you can manipulate them later.

ok. Class dismissed. And don't forget, this weekend, your homework assignment is to finally empty your girlfriend's bank account, spend it all on vintage cereal boxes and have sex with her sister....
and remember, extra credit will be awarded for driving either of them to suicide by Monday morning. Good luck, and remember...
"Stay Natural, Cuz What Could Be More Natural?."

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Old 01-20-2014, 08:44 AM   #121
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Default Re: The "Keep Hope Alive" (that the rights can revert back to Marvel) thread - Part

Ok then...

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Old 01-20-2014, 09:49 AM   #122
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Default Re: The "Keep Hope Alive" (that the rights can revert back to Marvel) thread - Part

I wonder what sort of monetary offer Disney would need to make to have FOX happily sell the property to them and I can't understand why Disney wouldn't consider it a good enough investment to have done it yet.

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Old 01-20-2014, 10:10 AM   #123
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Originally Posted by Gr0oT View Post
I wonder what sort of monetary offer Disney would need to make to have FOX happily sell the property to them and I can't understand why Disney wouldn't consider it a good enough investment to have done it yet.
This number is probably different today than it was 3 years ago. . . . but what none of us know for sure is if the number has gone up or gone down.

If Fox really is serious about making this movie and moving forward with their plans, it would probably take a pretty big number for Disney to convince them to scrap their plans.

If they have simply been posturing this whole time with little or no intention of making the film, they'd probably take almost any offer.

Part of the thing that makes it difficult from Disney's point of view is they have never known precisely what Fox has planned. If they suspected three years ago that Fox was just posturing, they would have been foolish to write a big check when there was a reasonable chance they'd get the rights for nothing.

But once it was clear that Fox was moving forward, it might have been too late.

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Old 01-20-2014, 11:23 AM   #124
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Default Re: The "Keep Hope Alive" (that the rights can revert back to Marvel) thread - Part

Quote:
Originally Posted by R_Hythlodeus View Post
they can alway delay until next summer. It's not like they have any pressure of time...
. . .I'm assuming this is sarcasm?

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Old 01-20-2014, 11:26 AM   #125
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Default Re: The "Keep Hope Alive" (that the rights can revert back to Marvel) thread - Part

As for what number, I don't think there is any number that both Marvel and Fox would accept. Fox wants a payout similar to a successful movie; Marvel does not want to pay enough money that their own FF movie would be unprofitable.

The fact that Fox's demands are unreasonable is irrelevant, because they view themselves as having the leverage. They can make a movie and keep the rights until Marvel eventually concedes. Of course, this is likely a mistake, because they think themselves to have better leverage than they actually do.

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