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Old 02-05-2014, 05:29 PM   #676
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"A flesh and blood character, a corporate billionaire with delusions of granduer that stands as an antithesis of Tony Stark. He is manipulative, psychotic"

Mandarin



Mandarin



Mandarin




Calling a spade a spade,lets admit,the only reason some prefer Killian is because of the deep seated fear that a Chinese Mandarin would be inherently "racist".I for one,find it difficult to believe that the kids cartoon version of Iron Man (Armored Adventures) could create a compelling storyline for the character and a multi million dollar franchise with greatest talent available can't do the same or better.

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Old 02-05-2014, 05:38 PM   #677
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Calling a spade a spade,lets admit,the only reason some prefer Killian is because of the deep seated fear that a Chinese Mandarin would be inherently "racist".
Nope. I genuinely enjoyed Killian. I thought he was a really brilliant and fresh take on the character.

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I for one,find it difficult to believe that the kids cartoon version of Iron Man (Armored Adventures) could create a compelling storyline for the character and a multi million dollar franchise with greatest talent available can't do the same or better.
I didn't really care for Armored Adventures.

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Old 02-05-2014, 05:52 PM   #678
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Hi everyone,

I just saw the "All Hail the King" One Shot, and for the first time in a long time I am excited about the Mandarin character. I know fans have had mixed feelings on this subject, and while I agree that Killian embodied many inner traits similar to the Mandarin, I never felt like he was the Mandarin due to his appearance and lack of mystical abilities. Now I know it is perhaps strange to judge a character by their looks and what they can or can't do, but to me comics have always been a very visual media and because of this I think getting these elements right is as important if not more important to who we associate the character with.

As for people stating that it makes Iron Man 3's Mandarin story irrelevant. I don't think it does. It just builds on it. The Mandarin character is like an onion and there is many layers of his story to peel away before he is truly revealed. So, essentially Iron Man 3 was the legend stage of the Mandarin story. It's true that in the One Shot
Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:
Trevor didn't know about the existence of the Real Mandarin, but why would he after all he is only an actor. However, that doesn't mean that Killian who was the Mastermind behind Iron Man 3 wasn't aware of the legends.
So, perhaps Killian as a fan of the Mandarin legend took on his Persona and perhaps even modeled certain aspects of his character to be like him, which would explain why they had similar traits. We tend to be like people we admire, because we see qualities in them that we want for ourselves.

I mean people seem to be assuming that the traits that made Killian similar to the Mandarin would not be present if a real Mandarin is introduced into the MCU. Because I think he would have most if not all of those same attributes as Killian, but in addition to that he would have the unique look and mysticism that is very much the Mandarin from the comics. This way we end up as comic book fans with 100% or at least 90% Mandarin instead of the 50% Mandarin it seemed we were getting with Killian. Once again I am not arguing that the 50% we got in Iron Man 3 with Killian isn't the important stuff to ones character (if this was reality), but once again comics are very visual, so to me getting these other aspects right becomes extremely important to the completion of the character.

As a final thought, I feel I complained a lot about how the Mandarin character was done in Iron Man 3, so I feel this redeemed. However, I really doubt that Marvel made any changes due to fan outrage. I feel very confident that they had this planned all along, especially since the outrage was pretty split, it's not like it was unanimously disliked amongst fans or anything. So, to me "All Hail the King" heading in this direction (and possibly setting up for Iron Man 4 or beyond) was Marvel's plan all along. I am starting to realize that with the Marvel Movies and even shows like Marvel Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D., that these writers are pretty amazing to the point where they are sometimes laying seeds or at the very least thinking so much further down the road then I would have believed and I as an individual I just need to be more patient and trust in the source "Marvel Studio's".

Well anyways, these are just my thoughts.

Surfer

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Old 02-05-2014, 06:09 PM   #679
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Hi everyone,

I just saw the "All Hail the King" One Shot, and for the first time in a long time I am excited about the Mandarin character. I know fans have had mixed feelings on this subject, and while I agree that Killian embodied many inner traits similar to the Mandarin, I never felt like he was the Mandarin due to his appearance and lack of mystical abilities. Now I know it is perhaps strange to judge a character by their looks and what they can or can't do, but to me comics have always been a very visual media and because of this I think getting these elements right is as important if not more important to who we associate the character with.

As for people stating that it makes Iron Man 3's Mandarin story irrelevant. I don't think it does. It just builds on it. The Mandarin character is like an onion and there is many layers of his story to peel away before he is truly revealed. So, essentially Iron Man 3 was the legend stage of the Mandarin story. It's true that in the One Shot
Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:
Trevor didn't know about the existence of the Real Mandarin, but why would he after all he is only an actor. However, that doesn't mean that Killian who was the Mastermind behind Iron Man 3 wasn't aware of the legends.
So, perhaps Killian as a fan of the Mandarin legend took on his Persona and perhaps even modeled certain aspects of his character to be like him, which would explain why they had similar traits. We tend to be like people we admire, because we see qualities in them that we want for ourselves.

I mean people seem to be assuming that the traits that made Killian similar to the Mandarin would not be present if a real Mandarin is introduced into the MCU. Because I think he would have most if not all of those same attributes as Killian, but in addition to that he would have the unique look and mysticism that is very much the Mandarin from the comics. This way we end up as comic book fans with 100% or at least 90% Mandarin instead of the 50% Mandarin it seemed we were getting with Killian. Once again I am not arguing that the 50% we got in Iron Man 3 with Killian isn't the important stuff to ones character (if this was reality), but once again comics are very visual, so to me getting these other aspects right becomes extremely important to the completion of the character.

As a final thought, I feel I complained a lot about how the Mandarin character was done in Iron Man 3, so I feel this redeemed. However, I really doubt that Marvel made any changes due to fan outrage. I feel very confident that they had this planned all along, especially since the outrage was pretty split, it's not like it was unanimously disliked amongst fans or anything. So, to me "All Hail the King" heading in this direction (and possibly setting up for Iron Man 4 or beyond) was Marvel's plan all along. I am starting to realize that with the Marvel Movies and even shows like Marvel Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D., that these writers are pretty amazing to the point where they are sometimes laying seeds or at the very least thinking so much further down the road then I would have believed and I as an individual I just need to be more patient and trust in the source "Marvel Studio's".

Well anyways, these are just my thoughts.

Surfer
While I disagree with your overall premise, I feel that you and I understand one another and our respective points of view, and I respect your opinion.




things got kind of hairy in here, so I'm trying to spread the good vibes.

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Old 02-05-2014, 06:16 PM   #680
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Default Re: All Hail the King

While this short is entertaining I'm not for this new Mandarin revelation. It feels very much like Marvel bending to the butthurt.

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Old 02-05-2014, 06:16 PM   #681
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I just had one last thing to say.

The reason I think it is at least equally important the overall look & powers of a comic character be as correct as the characters inner qualities and skills (more so then if it was a real life person), is because these characters are iconic with their imagery, gracing posters, T-Shirts and many other types of merchandise, many times without stories or any sort of verbiage and as such their pictures and powers becomes synonymous with their identity. I mean the test is if you held up a poster of the Mandarin from the comics without any verbiage and you asked a comic fan who is this a picture of they would answer the Mandarin. However, prior to Iron Man 3 if someone at Marvel comics drew a picture of a character that looked like Killian (blonde hair and all) put it on a poster without any verbiage and asked the same comic fan who is this, the comic fan would find himself most likely clueless.

That is how I see it at least.

Surfer

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Old 02-05-2014, 06:19 PM   #682
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I just had one last thing to say.

The reason I think it is at least equally important the overall look & powers of a comic character be as correct as the characters inner qualities and skills (more so then if it was a real life person), is because these characters are iconic with their imagery, gracing posters, T-Shirts and many other types of merchandise, many times without stories or any sort of verbiage and as such their pictures and powers becomes synonymous with their identity. I mean the test is if you held up a poster of the Mandarin from the comics without any verbiage and you asked a comic fan who is this a picture of they would answer the Mandarin. However, prior to Iron Man 3 if someone at Marvel comics drew a picture of a character that looked like Killian (blonde hair and all) put it on a poster without any verbiage and asked the same comic fan who is this, the comic fan would find himself most likely clueless.

That is how I see it at least.

Surfer
That's where we fundamentally disagree. I think the metric of a good character is if you can grab a random person who's seen their movie or read their story, and that person can give a detailed description of who that character is and what that character is like without mentioning their name, appearance, occupation, or role in the story.

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Old 02-05-2014, 06:28 PM   #683
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While I disagree with your overall premise, I feel that you and I understand one another and our respective points of view, and I respect your opinion.




things got kind of hairy in here, so I'm trying to spread the good vibes.
Yeah, I read the last few pages of the thread and could see people were getting pretty heated. That is why I ended up leaving for a while myself. Some people (not you) were getting pretty angry & upset with me because of my opinion, and for me I am a lover not a fighter, so I might debate a point, but I never mean to upset or annoy anyone. Therefore, it just seemed like time to give it a rest for a little while at least. As for you "The Question" I have nothing but respect for you, whether you agree with me or not on this subject, I always feel your responses are well thought out, logical and with good intentions. So, you have no problems here either.

Surfer

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Old 02-05-2014, 06:42 PM   #684
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Wow. I really hadn't looked at it like that, but yeah, that's not cool at all.

But then again... isn't that the truth? Isn't Mandarin, at his core, a big Asian stereotype?
no. he really isn't. he would definately look that way to people at a glance. but the only asian stereotypes criterion he met (at the time of his creation) were the facial hair and martial artistry. the latter was a trait held by pretty much every silver age villain (check out Baron Zemo's karate chops) and hero (Pym demonstrated judo in his origin). maybe you're confusing him with the Yellow Claw; whom also faced Iron Man.

In Invincible Iron Man Annual #1 by Matt Fraction, a new updated origin of the Mandarin is offered. Here, the Mandarin kidnaps a young up and coming film producer to tell his life's story. He relates the same story he once told Iron Man in Tales of Suspense of his English noblewoman mother and his schooling at the finest boarding schools in the land. The director learns that much of what the Mandarin says is contradictory and false, and it is hinted that the Mandarin has used one of his own rings to make himself believe this tapestry of half truths. The director discovers that the Mandarin was the son of an opium den prostitute who went on to become a powerful underworld figure before discovering the Ten Rings of Power in an alien craft, the pilot of which he brutally slew to obtain them. The Mandarin slaughtered the Red Chinese army officials for daring to cross him while financing his operations with drug and gun smuggling, aided by the mercenary Raza. In this retelling, he is also said to have been at the camp in which Tony Stark constructed his Iron Man armor, though Stark is unaware of this fact.
Angered at the Mandarin holding his wife hostage, the director shoots the movie as he wishes not as the Mandarin dictates. The Mandarin denounces this telling of his past as lies and angrily destroys the theater in which it was being shown, before having the director killed. Later, he regrets murdering the director, noting that he really did love his films

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Old 02-05-2014, 06:47 PM   #685
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Even had he been Asian, I still wouldn't have liked him, had everything stayed the same. Getting left on the roof by Tony, thus paving the road for the birth of the Mandarin, his crush on Pepper, behaving like a grade A douchebag, his bloody Turtle lines. Seriously, I didn't like Killian/dark Tony at all.

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Old 02-05-2014, 07:01 PM   #686
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Haven't posted here in a while, but was reading over the thread. Not trying to get into any arguments with anybody lol, just my opinion.

I thought this made IM3 so much better. It adds a lot to the story IMO. Here's how I see it...

Like someone else said, may have been early in this thread or another, it makes sense for Killian to use an already established "legend" as his front. He could have done research on ancient cults, etc. Anyway, a lot of scientist in reality believe religion (Christianity, Islam, etc.), so I could see the character of Killian coming across this "Ten Rings" legend and thinking it to be just that, a legend. He wouldn't believe it's real. The longer he plays it up, the more people believe, the more he becomes arrogant. You see it when people plagiarize stories, music, etc. They don’t think they can be touched, some truly believe they’ve created whatever they stole. To me, saying "I am the Mandarin" is just his arrogance bursting out. He still doesn't believe any of it, he just thinks it's a story to begin with. So in his mind, he's the one who made the Mandarin a real thing, using the Ten Rings logo, etc.

Now, to me it makes it the IM story contained in the MCU that much cooler. The real Ten Rings (which was in IM1) would take offense, kind of how in real life Muslim’s took offense with South Park and threatened the creators. It opens up the world imo. You now have aliens, gods, what may or may not be a mystical organization in the Ten Rings. If they meant to do this (I kind of believe they did) then it was unbelievable planning ahead. Now, I’m not going to get into any of the stereotype talk, just my opinion on what it does to the story.

Word of advice, if you thought Killian was the Mandarin or whatever and told people non-stop that “he’s the Mandarin”, who cares. Just enjoy it, man. Just enjoy the movies, enjoy the twists and mysteries. Don’t worry that you may have been wrong. It’s not a crime to be wrong and you don't get a prize for being right.

Oh, and I loved the little stab at fans when Kingsley said, “I’ve seen those bloody internet message boards.” I laughed out loud.

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Old 02-05-2014, 07:16 PM   #687
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That's where we fundamentally disagree. I think the metric of a good character is if you can grab a random person who's seen their movie or read their story, and that person can give a detailed description of who that character is and what that character is like without mentioning their name, appearance, occupation, or role in the story.
Well I didn't say Killian wasn't a good character, and your right that all of that stuff makes a character interesting. And it did, I felt Killian was an interesting Villain, I just didn't feel he was a good Mandarin, due to the lack of his looks & mystical powers matching with his appearances from the comics. We as people are a sum of all our parts. If you showed up to work (your brain in someone else's body) who would your co workers see? You or the person your brain is inside. I mean sure you might be able to convince some people due to your traits and knowledge of yourself, that you are you, but people initially identify by what they see, hear & touch. What is that old saying if it looks like a duck and sounds like a duck then it is probably a duck. These are external things that we use to identify, that is just what we do as people. So, it is only natural when someone doesn't look right to feel like it is not them. This is what was happening for me and I believe many other fans. Had I no knowledge of the Mandarin imagery already pre-established in my head I would have enjoyed Killian as Mandarin without hesitation. However, I unfortunately know what I do and I can't change the way I feel, or perhaps I should say fortunately now with this Marvel One Shot coming out.

In either case, I know that neither of us will come to an agreement on the subject. So, in this instance we will have to agree to disagree.

Respectfully,

Surfer

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Old 02-05-2014, 09:00 PM   #688
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Didn't see it posted yet, new interview with Drew about the short: http://voicesfromkrypton.net/all-hai...vfk-exclusive/

Here are the highlights:

VOICES FROM KRYPTON: “Apology” is probably the wrong word, but is this short some sort of reaching out to the fans who were upset in the changes that were made to the character of the Mandarin as he appeared in the comics?

DREW PEARCE: It’s weird. The idea for the short was there before any of the kind of storm in a teacup following our Mandarin reveal. What’s actually interesting as well is that the evidence of the “real” Mandarin is laid out in all of the Iron Man movies, as well as all the stuff we said around the release of the movie. The 10 Rings are part of Iron Man 1, they make an appearance in deleted scenes in Iron Man 2, and we’re very specific about the fact that he’s a real guy that exists in the world. In fact, we talked about it a lot when the movie came out. There was always the sense that this term had been co-opted by Killian’s think tank. Obviously the events in the short made that even more explicit. The weird thing is I don’t have any regrets with what we did with Iron Man and I feel no reason to apologize for it. The short kind of let me join some dots that were already there. But it wasn’t the reason we did it. The reason we did it is that we wanted to play with Trevor Slattery some more.
__________________________________________________ ______________________

VOICES FROM KRYPTON: But you certainly know what I’m talking about in terms of the response from people, right?

DREW PEARCE: Oh, yes, totally, but I would hate for anyone to think I was apologizing for a twist that I’m deeply proud of. I feel like it would have been dishonest to Iron man 3 if we’d made Trevor the real Mandarin after all and it was a double bluff. I think where the short leads to is a more exciting place and hopefully not one that betrays the intention of Iron man 3.
__________________________________________________ ______________________

VOICES FROM KRYPTON: Yeah, it goes to a more exciting place that we’re never going to see.

DREW PEARCE: [laughs] Or will we?

__________________________________________________ _____________________

VOICES FROM KRYPTON: Well, they certainly haven’t said that Downey’s been signed for a fourth Iron Man film, just Avengers 2 and 3.

DREW PEARCE: This is true, but who knows how the crazy world of the Marvel Cinematic Universe may unfold? I think there’s a never say never sense to every part of the MCU. We’ll see. The character that comes back in the tag of the one-shot felt like he would never appear again. I think his appearance in the one-shot reminds people that he’s in the universe and how exciting he is. Who knows? Maybe we get to see him as well.

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Old 02-05-2014, 09:22 PM   #689
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We still know NOTHING about Trevor.

He's an ACTOR. Who's to say he's not acting all around?

He was advertised as the Mandarin, and he gets his own short? There's got to be more to him. This isn't the last we see of him I bet.

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Old 02-05-2014, 09:30 PM   #690
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We still know NOTHING about Trevor.

He's an ACTOR. Who's to say he's not acting all around?

He was advertised as the Mandarin, and he gets his own short? There's got to be more to him. This isn't the last we see of him I bet.
Well, if you're saying that he himself could be the real Mandarin Drew just said that's not the case. There's a real Mandarin, he's out there, we haven't met him yet.

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Old 02-05-2014, 09:42 PM   #691
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Well, if you're saying that he himself could be the real Mandarin Drew just said that's not the case. There's a real Mandarin, he's out there, we haven't met him yet.
Plus, in the same interview, Drew says they did the short because he was ecstatic to discover that they still had Sir Ben Kingsley available for awhile, and Sir Ben seemed perfectly happy to extend his role as Trev briefly.

Yeah, there's a lot of subterfuge going on here, but Trevor isn't one of the string-pullers. He's just an actor who's enjoying a starring role, even if it's to an audience of prisoners right now.

Also, none of AHTK makes any sense at all if Trevor was "the Real Mandarin."
Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:
Jackson very definitely tries to kill or subdue Trevor, Trevor very definitely tries to fight his way out by killing Jackson in turn, and ultimately Jackson gets the upper hand and carts him off to The REAL Real Mandarin.

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Old 02-05-2014, 09:48 PM   #692
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Plus, in the same interview, Drew says they did the short because he was ecstatic to discover that they still had Sir Ben Kingsley available for awhile, and Sir Ben seemed perfectly happy to extend his role as Trev briefly.

Yeah, there's a lot of subterfuge going on here, but Trevor isn't one of the string-pullers. He's just an actor who's enjoying a starring role, even if it's to an audience of prisoners right now.

Also, none of AHTK makes any sense at all if Trevor was "the Real Mandarin."
Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:
Jackson very definitely tries to kill or subdue Trevor, Trevor very definitely tries to fight his way out by killing Jackson in turn, and ultimately Jackson gets the upper hand and carts him off to The REAL Real Mandarin.
Yup. I'm glad SOMEONE interviewed him and asked these questions. The whole argument can finally be put to rest. The Mandarin is real. He's not Trevor. He's not Killian. He's out there, and we might see him.

PLUS that's a big [horse stomp] hint that they're doing something else going on with Jackson Norriss

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Old 02-05-2014, 10:03 PM   #693
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So can we expect Avengers: Age of Ultron to involve the Mandarin in some capacity?

With the rumors that Tony Stark creates Ultron, what if Mandarin hijacks it and uses it for his own purposes?

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Old 02-05-2014, 10:13 PM   #694
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Could be, but I doubt it. If that were the case they wouldn't have released this info in a One-Shot that most people won't see

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Old 02-05-2014, 10:18 PM   #695
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Could be, but I doubt it. If that were the case they wouldn't have released this info in a One-Shot that most people won't see
They could address the existence of the real Mandarin in the movie. I mean, Tony still has to find out.

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Old 02-05-2014, 10:28 PM   #696
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Of course, that's why I said they could. But at this point I don't see that happening. This Mandarin reveal is leap frog move. Phase Three or beyond. Phase Two is hammered out tightly.

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Old 02-05-2014, 11:08 PM   #697
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Originally Posted by Human Torch View Post



Calling a spade a spade,lets admit,the only reason some prefer Killian is because of the deep seated fear that a Chinese Mandarin would be inherently "racist".I for one,find it difficult to believe that the kids cartoon version of Iron Man (Armored Adventures) could create a compelling storyline for the character and a multi million dollar franchise with greatest talent available can't do the same or better.
Yep. I was fine with Killian. He was good. Not great. Could have done without the fire breath, turtle jokes, Pepper crush and nerdy origin, I don't feel like those added anything at all and stopped him from being great. But overall he was serviceable. I really don't think Tony has had a real solid villain yet. Stane was good, Killian was good, the Hammer/Vanko team up was the best so far IMO. But it was wasted with all the other crap going on in that movie.

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Joss Whedon's MUCH ADO ABOUT NOTHING is the cinematic equivalent of Tony Stark building an Iron Man suit in a cave with a bunch of scraps
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Old 02-05-2014, 11:17 PM   #698
TheVileOne
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Default Re: All Hail the King

Here's the conclusion I've come to.

Marvel and filmmakers are simply uncomfortable about adapting The Mandarin to the screen. And they regrettably never will.

Case in point...this short. This is a short on DVD release. We are never seeing this short in theaters.

If the actual Mandarin is ever in a movie, will likely be long after Downey has left Iron Man behind.

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Old 02-05-2014, 11:23 PM   #699
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Default Re: All Hail the King

Sounds about right. It's them leaving the door open, not stepping through it. But the One-Shot will definitely tie into other things. Just like their other One-Shots did.

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Joss Whedon's MUCH ADO ABOUT NOTHING is the cinematic equivalent of Tony Stark building an Iron Man suit in a cave with a bunch of scraps
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Old 02-06-2014, 12:23 AM   #700
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Default Re: All Hail the King

Killian patterning certain aspects of himself and Trevor to be like the Mandarin legend parallels to how people like the guy in the news van pattern their whole look after Tony Stark
xD

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