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Old 01-26-2014, 06:06 PM   #101
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Default Re: MCU Phase 3: Have it your way - Part 1

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Originally Posted by seahammer View Post
Well, T:TDW wasn't even piecemealed together from existing storylines, it was an original story altogether. I don't think Marvel really cares to copy a story from the comics. Sure, many of their films have been inspired by storylines from the comics, but even those have been changed significantly (like Extremis in IM3). I don't see it as an issue for the Hulk sequel to be an original story.
In the context of my statement, you can see I was talking about peicemealing the direction, not the story. The direction for TDW: Discovering the Nine Worlds and dealing with Royal Asgardian politics conflicting with Misgardian attachments and Loki shenanigans are lifted directly from the Thor comics. I believe they made a mistake by pulling too many different directions from the comics, but they're straight from the comics. Once you have a solid direction, the story can go many many different ways, original or otherwise.

Hulk doesn't even have that. He doesn't have a solid direction that's not either a copy of another MCU solo franchise or too expensive to film for Marvel Studios. I asked if anyone knew of any other direction for Hulk and wondered if someone could somehow put one together out of other elements in the Hulk comics, but seeing as how that didn't work out all that great for Thor:TDW, perhaps that'd be a very bad idea for Hulk.

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Old 01-26-2014, 06:10 PM   #102
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Default Re: MCU Phase 3: Have it your way - Part 1

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Ant-Man has an original, affordable story, Thor as well, plus there are specific answers to the objections people brought up in those days, even if they didn't listen at the time. Hulk has no such practical answers to the practical problems he presents. And to clarify and restate: I did not say or show that there isn't such a story, I just showed how neither you, nor I nor anyone at Marvel Studios knows what that story is or how to find it. This is not like Thor where people just disagreed with the answers, but all you can say is "I'm sure it's out there," which does no one any good, and doesn't actually disagree with my statement.
I also don't work for Marvel, so writing "my" Hulk 2 is pointless to this discussion. However, Marvel DOES have many writers under their employ who are paid to come up with ideas, flesh them out, and hopefully produce something everyone can get behind. You honestly think Marvel hasn't been trying to put together a Hulk 2 script since they made all that Avengers money? I bet Marvel already has a story in mind, and one that they like. It doesn't matter if you or I develop a Hulk sequel between these posts. Any Hulk sequel made likely will address any "problems" differently than imagined. Many people on here thought getting Thor back into the story in Avengers was going to be tasking, and what does Whedon do? Makes it simple by just having him show up! Hulk has easy answers out there like this as well. It just takes putting the property in the hands of someone creative. Also, neither you nor I have any idea how AoU will shape up. We don't know what SHIELD will be like at phase 2 ends. We don't know where Banner will be as a character. There are too many VARIABLES in trying to develop a concrete idea. You can't solve a puzzle without all the pieces. Personally, I'd like to see Leader somehow involved in Hulk 2. But, as noted before, we simply don't know enough in order to make anything informed. So, I don't see how my lack of a story shows there isn't a story. This is flawed logic. I often agree with you on many things, but here, I 100% don't agree.

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Old 01-26-2014, 06:18 PM   #103
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Default Re: MCU Phase 3: Have it your way - Part 1

Writing "your Hulk 2," assuming it is not redundant with another MCU franchise movie and is affordable would disprove my entire point. My entire point rests on the idea that you, nor I, nor anyone at MS can. The fact that we agree Marvel wants to, but they haven't supports the idea that they can't. That's the only reason they wouldn't do something we agree they'd want to do after Avengers. Joss, who is creative and Ruffalo, have talked about it... they couldn't come up with a story, because no one has the answer you are confident exists and is easy, even someone as creative as Joss. That's because Hulk's problem isn't a story problem, like Thor's. Joss can say "Thor just shows up." But he can't say "Planet Hulk only costs $150M." That's not how creativity works. No number of writers can fix real life problems, because they only have power over the fictional world. This is to say nothing of the endless list of mega-talented comic book writers that have done all the classic Hulk stories but haven't solved this problem either. But maybe Marvel Studios has writers on staff better than all of Hulk's best writers in his 60 year history. -shrug-

There's lots of variables in flying too, but I can still prove that neither you, nor I, nor anyone at Marvel Studios can fly under their own power, just as I've shown no one knows how to make a good Hulk movie if it has to be both unique and affordable. You're waiting on all the pieces and I've shown how the most important piece is lost.

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Old 01-26-2014, 06:27 PM   #104
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Default Re: MCU Phase 3: Have it your way - Part 1

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Writing "your Hulk 2," assuming it is not redundant with another MCU franchise movie and is affordable would disprove my entire point. My entire point rests on the idea that you, nor I, nor anyone at MS can. The fact that we agree Marvel wants to, but they haven't supports the idea that they can't. That's the only reason they wouldn't do something we agree they'd want to do after Avengers. Joss, who is creative and Ruffalo, have talked about it... they couldn't come up with a story, because no one has the answer you are confident exists and is easy, even someone as creative as Joss. That's because Hulk's problem isn't a story problem, like Thor's. Joss can say "Thor just shows up." But he can't say "Planet Hulk only costs $150M." That's not how creativity works. No number of writers can fix real life problems, because they only have power over the fictional world. This is to say nothing of the endless list of mega-talented comic book writers that have done all the classic Hulk stories but haven't solved this problem either. But maybe Marvel Studios has writers on staff better than all of Hulk's best writers in his 60 year history. -shrug-

There's lots of variables in flying too, but I can still prove that neither you, nor I, nor anyone at Marvel Studios can fly under their own power, just as I've shown no one knows how to make a good Hulk movie if it has to be both unique and affordable.
A - who says budget would be 150mil? IM3 and Thor: TDW both had larger than 150 mil budgets. Cap 2 likely did as well. I am sure Hulk's next movie will cost more than 150 mil (and I'd be shocked if they did Planet Hulk,, so not an issue). So, right here is a flaw in your argument: you assume a smaller investment than they're likely to make.

B - in TIH, an entirely different SFX method was used to do Hulk. In TIH, the created him out of nothing. In Avengers, they did Avatar-style mo-cap. This technology gets better and cheaper every year, so this will be more affordable now than it ever has been before.

C - Yes, they have writers I think can do Hulk justice on screen. I don't think you have enough personal faith in the character given what HAS been done with Hulk as opposed to what COULD be done with Hulk. Whedon already made the basis for a Banner people gravitated towards. Build off that, and you have something.

D - You think if they plan a Hulk 2, Ruffallo and Whedon are going to tell you what it is about when the film itself is not announced nor titled? Of course not. I bet Hulk 2 is a plan for phase 3, and they will announce it at Comic-Con as one of their 2016 or 2017 films.

So. you've proven nothing other than you personally don't see a Hulk film. Not that one can't be done.

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Old 01-26-2014, 06:35 PM   #105
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Default Re: MCU Phase 3: Have it your way - Part 1

To further show the budget argument, here are the announced budgets (via Box Office Mojo)

Iron Man 3 - 200 million
Thor: The Dark World - 170 million

Captain America: The Winter Soldier's is currently unlisted. I bet it gets listed around 170 million. Also, studios always announce smaller budgets than a film actually cost to make. Every film book says this. So, IM3 and Thor 2 actually likely had more than these listed budgets put into them. Why would they stick Hulk 2 at 150?

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Old 01-26-2014, 06:40 PM   #106
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Default Re: MCU Phase 3: Have it your way - Part 1

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Originally Posted by DrCosmic View Post
In the context of my statement, you can see I was talking about peicemealing the direction, not the story. The direction for TDW: Discovering the Nine Worlds and dealing with Royal Asgardian politics conflicting with Misgardian attachments and Loki shenanigans are lifted directly from the Thor comics. I believe they made a mistake by pulling too many different directions from the comics, but they're straight from the comics. Once you have a solid direction, the story can go many many different ways, original or otherwise.

Hulk doesn't even have that. He doesn't have a solid direction that's not either a copy of another MCU solo franchise or too expensive to film for Marvel Studios. I asked if anyone knew of any other direction for Hulk and wondered if someone could somehow put one together out of other elements in the Hulk comics, but seeing as how that didn't work out all that great for Thor:TDW, perhaps that'd be a very bad idea for Hulk.
Sorry if I misinterpreted your original statement, I wasn't trying to be antagonistic.

I'm not as well read in Hulk as I am in Thor, but Hulk's main schtick is still the best way to differentiate him from other characters: dealing with the uncontrollable monster within. Of course, The Avengers showed Banner as having a degree of control over the Hulk, so the question is how can a Hulk 2 film move the story forward, rather than taking Banner back to a pre-Avengers, TIH state? He can still be a reluctant hero, forced to bring out the monster when there are no other options, maybe to deal with other gamma powered beings. He doesn't have to work with SHIELD to do this.

However, you mentioned that Planet Hulk isn't viable because of the cost, but I don't see it being much more expensive than GOTG (I don't claim to be an expert on movie budgets...). This could really put Banner in a position to come to terms with co-existing with the Hulk, rather than just letting him out vs caging him up. Banner needs Hulk's strength to survive, but he needs Banner's brain at the same time. I don't know, that might be a good direction for Ruffalo's Banner. In The Avengers, Banner accepted that letting the Hulk to could do some good. This film could let Banner liberate an entire world by finding that balance between Id and Superego. When Hulk returns to Earth (rather than beating the crap out of all the heroes), we have a thinking, speaking Hulk.

EDIT: Just to reiterate, I'm not an expert on all of Hulk's stories. I only use Planet Hulk as an example storyline here because I'm familiar with it enough to talk about it. I don't think it's the only viable story out there, I just don't know enough Hulk stories.

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Old 01-26-2014, 06:58 PM   #107
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Default Re: MCU Phase 3: Have it your way - Part 1

A - I didn't say what the budget would be, I pointed out how Whedon can't fix every problem like he did with Thor.
B - More affordable doesn't mean that it's affordable enough. 8 minutes of Hulk doesn't make for much of a Hulk movie (Edit: or does it?)
C - Wait, what? So me liking the character isn't enough, I have to have faith that he'll do things he's never done before, and do them well the first time?
D - You bet things, but I have no idea why. It sounds very emotional.

Let's go over Whedon's statements:

Making a solo Hulk movie would be very, very hard.

Quote:
AQ - You think it would be possible to make a good Hulk film?

JW - Yes. But it would be very, very hard. Hulk is a tricky son of a *****. He’s the Claudio of superheroes. Because the problem is it’s a very popular character, but it’s not a superhero. Half of it’s a superhero, half of it’s a werewolf. And you can’t structure it like a superhero movie, you can’t light it like a superhero movie. How do you develop that? It would be extremely difficult. The one thing you would have in your favour would be Mark Ruffalo. But right now I don’t know if they have plans to do that or not, because he works so well as part of a greater whole, but by himself, it’s tough. I don’t envy the guys who went before.
So this idea that it's easy, or that any old writer could come up with it, both Joss and I agree this is false, and agree that he doesn't have he missing piece. You have your differing opinion, and you're welcome to it.

Here's another article about Hulk being the most difficult, that actually hits on something you talked about in part C.

Hulk Movie Joss Whedon

Quote:
"The real heart of the experience ultimately becomes playing Banner, and the thing that people fell in love with was Banner because I think Mark has you from the first time he shows up ... I don’t think there would be any problem getting a movie together that had enough Banner, even if there was also Hulk. But if he was only Hulk for the entire movie I think Mark at some point would go, why am I here? I would be less inclined to pursue a storyline where the Hulk is only ever the Hulk."
If Banner is what people gravitate towards, then the goal, and a new direction, is making a movie that's not actually about Hulk, but about Banner. This is both affordable and unique. Taking Whedon's advice and don't make a superhero movie. You're looking for a sort of indie-type found footage examination of who Banner is. A real road movie, Rick Jones behind the camera. All Banner, with Hulk as 'the monster,' and 'the money shot' so to speak. From there, you could adapt any number of on the run stories from Hulk comics, not unlike what Bana and Norton attempted to do but without Ruffalo's charm and with the weight of becoming a superhero on them.

So I stand corrected, Joss does have an angle, there is a third option. It's just not one fans would like, really.

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Old 01-26-2014, 07:02 PM   #108
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Default Re: MCU Phase 3: Have it your way - Part 1

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Sorry if I misinterpreted your original statement, I wasn't trying to be antagonistic.

I'm not as well read in Hulk as I am in Thor, but Hulk's main schtick is still the best way to differentiate him from other characters: dealing with the uncontrollable monster within. Of course, The Avengers showed Banner as having a degree of control over the Hulk, so the question is how can a Hulk 2 film move the story forward, rather than taking Banner back to a pre-Avengers, TIH state? He can still be a reluctant hero, forced to bring out the monster when there are no other options, maybe to deal with other gamma powered beings. He doesn't have to work with SHIELD to do this.

However, you mentioned that Planet Hulk isn't viable because of the cost, but I don't see it being much more expensive than GOTG (I don't claim to be an expert on movie budgets...). This could really put Banner in a position to come to terms with co-existing with the Hulk, rather than just letting him out vs caging him up. Banner needs Hulk's strength to survive, but he needs Banner's brain at the same time. I don't know, that might be a good direction for Ruffalo's Banner. In The Avengers, Banner accepted that letting the Hulk to could do some good. This film could let Banner liberate an entire world by finding that balance between Id and Superego. When Hulk returns to Earth (rather than beating the crap out of all the heroes), we have a thinking, speaking Hulk.

EDIT: Just to reiterate, I'm not an expert on all of Hulk's stories. I only use Planet Hulk as an example storyline here because I'm familiar with it enough to talk about it. I don't think it's the only viable story out there, I just don't know enough Hulk stories.
That's a fair enough point. The real problem with a Planet Hulk movie is that you remove or minimize the best part about MCU Hulk: Banner.

Guardians of the Galaxy might have a couple mostly-CGI characters with unknown amounts of screen time, but that's nothing compared to have 5-7 huge monsters in multiple extended fight scenes as the basis for your movie. That's Planet Hulk or Hulk vs the Gamma Monsters.

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Old 01-26-2014, 07:07 PM   #109
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Default Re: MCU Phase 3: Have it your way - Part 1

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A - I didn't say what the budget would be, I pointed out how Whedon can't fix every problem like he did with Thor.
B - More affordable doesn't mean that it's affordable enough. 8 minutes of Hulk doesn't make for much of a Hulk movie (Edit: or does it?)
C - Wait, what? So me liking the character isn't enough, I have to have faith that he'll do things he's never done before, and do them well the first time?
D - You bet things, but I have no idea why. It sounds very emotional.
A - You threw out the 150 mil figure. Not me.

B - When you don't have gods, armored people, aliens, etc. then you can afford more than 8 minutes of Hulk. Films with much smaller budgets use these type of effects more and more now, and can produce more than 8 minutes. Going digital helps with that. So once again....not a problem.

C - Your personal faith in the character doesn't mean it can't be done. Hulk has existed for many years. Much has been done with him. Some writers good, others sucked. Find someone who can tackle the material. This is not a foreign concept, man.

D -

Quote:
Let's go over Whedon's statements:

Making a solo Hulk movie would be very, very hard.



So this idea that it's easy, or that any old writer could come up with it, both Joss and I agree this is false, and agree that he doesn't have he missing piece. You have your differing opinion, and you're welcome to it.

Here's another article about Hulk being the most difficult, that actually hits on something you talked about in part C.

Hulk Movie Joss Whedon



If Banner is what people gravitate towards, then the goal, and a new direction, is making a movie that's not actually about Hulk, but about Banner. This is both affordable and unique. Taking Whedon's advice and don't make a superhero movie. You're looking for a sort of indie-type found footage examination of who Banner is. A real road movie, Rick Jones behind the camera. All Banner, with Hulk as 'the monster,' and 'the money shot' so to speak. From there, you could adapt any number of on the run stories from Hulk comics, not unlike what Bana and Norton attempted to do but without Ruffalo's charm and with the weight of becoming a superhero on them.

So I stand corrected, Joss does have an angle, there is a third option. It's just not one fans would like, really.
So, an indy type found footage movie is all you can come up with? Good thing you're not a filmmaker then. It requires far more imagination than that. When you have the Leader already set-up for use, the events in New York, and whatever happens in AoU to build off of, I think a whole lot more than that can be done.

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Old 01-26-2014, 07:19 PM   #110
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Default Re: MCU Phase 3: Have it your way - Part 1

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That's a fair enough point. The real problem with a Planet Hulk movie is that you remove or minimize the best part about MCU Hulk: Banner.
I do agree with that, but I don't see it as an insurmountable problem.

If Marvel cuts me a check, I'll try to figure it out!

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Old 01-26-2014, 08:02 PM   #111
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Default Re: MCU Phase 3: Have it your way - Part 1

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A - You threw out the 150 mil figure. Not me.

B - When you don't have gods, armored people, aliens, etc. then you can afford more than 8 minutes of Hulk. Films with much smaller budgets use these type of effects more and more now, and can produce more than 8 minutes. Going digital helps with that. So once again....not a problem.

C - Your personal faith in the character doesn't mean it can't be done. Hulk has existed for many years. Much has been done with him. Some writers good, others sucked. Find someone who can tackle the material. This is not a foreign concept, man.

D -
A - I threw it out there as a concrete concept that isn't changed by creativity, not an estimate.
B - Gods aren't expensive, they're just guys in costumes. Instead of aliens you'd have whatever Hulk's enemies were. There's no money freed up.
C - People tackle the material well all the time, just in ways that are too expensive or are redundant for the MCU.

Quote:
So, an indy type found footage movie is all you can come up with? Good thing you're not a filmmaker then. It requires far more imagination than that. When you have the Leader already set-up for use, the events in New York, and whatever happens in AoU to build off of, I think a whole lot more than that can be done.
None of those story points is a direction that is not too expensive or redundant. Joss Whedon is a filmmaker, and he doesn't think a Hulk-centric movie is the answer, and he thinks it's incredibly hard to do. You disagree. Just you. Enjoy your opinion. Maybe Joss Whedon and I can improve our imaginations or something.

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Old 01-26-2014, 08:14 PM   #112
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Default Re: MCU Phase 3: Have it your way - Part 1

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A - I threw it out there as a concrete concept that isn't changed by creativity, not an estimate.
B - Gods aren't expensive, they're just guys in costumes. Instead of aliens you'd have whatever Hulk's enemies were. There's no money freed up.
C - People tackle the material well all the time, just in ways too expensive for the MCU, or with themes that are the basis for other MCU franchises
A - Once again, you made the point. I countered with a fact that they invest more in sequels.

B - Gods that can fly and call down lightning and make multiples of themselves are expensive. And you're point was Hulk can't do anything in the budget, but when you take out the other flashy characters and replace them with Hulk characters, then there is money for them. Technology gets more advaned every year and becomes cheaper as digital takes over the industry. Also, TIH used a harder SFX method and had more than 8 mins of Hulk. We'd get plenty of Hulk.

C - See my point about advancing technology. Thor 2 had to find a way to stay within budget with very similar problems (Asgard isn't cheap). The 1st Thor noticeably feels small because Asgard is a few rooms, but Marvel was able to expand Asgard more in TDW. I have faith they would find ways to stay in budget and produce action worthy of Hulk.

Quote:
Joss Whedon is a filmmaker, and he doesn't think a Hulk-centric movie is the answer, and he thinks it's incredibly hard to do. You disagree. Just you. Enjoy your opinion.
Yes, it is my opinion. Hulk is not an easy character to adapt. I agree with Whedon on that. But, fact is every superhero presents a different problem in adapting the character. Every one of them. You're acting like Hulk has problems that are insurmountable, and I don't agree. At one point, Thor's script would have cost 400 mil to make. They made it work. Captain America wears the USA on his person and people thought that would drive people away. They made it work. Iron Man was a no-name being played by someone who fell out of Hollywood's favor. They made it work. Every problem you have listed has a solution. It just takes effort and creativity. Just because you don't have solutions doesn't mean there isn't a solution. This is more the issue I am taking with you personally.

So, enjoy your opinion as well

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Old 01-26-2014, 08:27 PM   #113
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A - Once again, you made the point. I countered with a fact that they invest more in sequels.

B - Gods that can fly and call down lightning and make multiples of themselves are expensive. And you're point was Hulk can't do anything in the budget, but when you take out the other flashy characters and replace them with Hulk characters, then there is money for them. Technology gets more advaned every year and becomes cheaper as digital takes over the industry. Also, TIH used a harder SFX method and had more than 8 mins of Hulk. We'd get plenty of Hulk.

C - See my point about advancing technology. Thor 2 had to find a way to stay within budget with very similar problems (Asgard isn't cheap). The 1st Thor noticeably feels small because Asgard is a few rooms, but Marvel was able to expand Asgard more in TDW. I have faith they would find ways to stay in budget and produce action worthy of Hulk.
Gods only account for maybe two minutes of SFX each. So... 12 minutes of Hulk? TIH wasn't less expensive than AngHulk even though it was later because the CGI was better. CGI gets cheaper, but the demands of CGI also get harder, and it balances out. Advancing technology doesn't help, it actually increases the challenge to keep up with cutting edge CGI.

And even if they could afford to do Planet Hulk or Leader and the Gamma Mutates or any other Hulk CGI Monsterfest storylines for 200M, it's still a bad idea for all the reasons Joss named. So we're back to the same place.

Quote:
Yes, it is my opinion. Hulk is not an easy character to adapt. I agree with Whedon on that. But, fact is every superhero presents a different problem in adapting the character. Every one of them. You're acting like Hulk has problems that are insurmountable, and I don't agree. At one point, Thor's script would have cost 400 mil to make. They made it work. Captain America wears the USA on his person and people thought that would drive people away. They made it work. Iron Man was a no-name being played by someone who fell out of Hollywood's favor. They made it work. Every problem you have listed has a solution. It just takes effort and creativity. Just because you don't have solutions doesn't mean there isn't a solution. This is more the issue I am taking with you personally.

So, enjoy your opinion as well
So... you're not even responding to my points, but you're responding to how you think I'm acting and how you think I personally feel, even when I say the exact opposite? Case in point: I provide a solution and you say I don't have solutions? Dude, you're not even in a conversation with me, not really.

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Old 01-26-2014, 08:44 PM   #114
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Default Re: MCU Phase 3: Have it your way - Part 1

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Gods only account for maybe two minutes of SFX each. So... 12 minutes of Hulk? TIH wasn't less expensive than AngHulk even though it was later because the CGI was better. CGI gets cheaper, but the demands of CGI also get harder, and it balances out. Advancing technology doesn't help, it actually increases the challenge to keep up with cutting edge CGI.
The new advances in CGI do come at the price of needing to be spectacular, but both IM3 and Thor 2 had great CGI on very tight schedules. Marvel has learned a lot about doing CGI, and doing it fast. Working with Hulk again on AoU should only make learning how to do him easier.

Quote:
And even if they could afford to do Planet Hulk or Leader and the Gamma Mutates or any other Hulk CGI Monsterfest storylines for 200M, it's still a bad idea for all the reasons Joss named. So we're back to the same place.
I'm always the first person to say Han Solo isn't a good main character for a solo film or anything. But, Banner isn't exactly Han Solo. He has his own depth that I think can provide a wealth of storytelling in the hands of a good director. Yes, Joss brings up valid points, but his points only highlight the challenges in working with Hulk, IMO. Not as proof it can't/shouldn't be done. I think Marvel should try again. Let the Hulk flap his wings again. If he plummets once more, then you know nothing changes. But, I doubt that happens since people like Ruffallo and Ruffallo gets the character.

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So... you're not even responding to my points, but you're responding to how you think I'm acting and how you think I personally feel, even when I say the exact opposite? Case in point: I provide a solution and you say I don't have solutions? Dude, you're not even in a conversation with me, not really.
I agree with Whedon that Planet Hulk is a bad idea. I wouldn't argue that point at all. I think you need Banner for Hulk to work. But the fact that the Hulk isn't a traditional superhero I don't think makes him impossible. Difficult, sure. But like any other character, it is just a challenge inherit in the character. You can approach Banner like Kane from Kung-Fu. The man who doesn't want to fight and will find ways in which to avoid it, but there is always that breaking point that requires the monster. Heck, now that Banner can at least guide the monster, it's easier to do a traditional storyline. I could see many possible stories. I would likely favor the Gamma Mutates and the Leader (since the set-up is there already), but you could do what the Hulk Ultimate Destruction game did, and maybe Ultron does something that creates the Maestro within Banner's mind, and he has to find a way to destroy him. What if he befriends SHIELD, and Ross decides to tinker and become Red Hulk? What if somehow the Hulk is entirely seperated into Banner, so Banner must find a way to become one with Hulk again (though that sort of rehashes TIH a bit, but this is all at the top of my head)? There are many stories you could go with for Hulk. Yes, there is always a budget concern, but I think Marvel would find a way to do it.

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Old 01-26-2014, 09:31 PM   #115
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The new advances in CGI do come at the price of needing to be spectacular, but both IM3 and Thor 2 had great CGI on very tight schedules. Marvel has learned a lot about doing CGI, and doing it fast. Working with Hulk again on AoU should only make learning how to do him easier.
...but they also have to make him look better. Cinematic quality CGI is not going to be cheap or easy any time soon. Yesterday's CGI is cheaper and easier. Today's CGI will always be full price.

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I'm always the first person to say Han Solo isn't a good main character for a solo film or anything. But, Banner isn't exactly Han Solo. He has his own depth that I think can provide a wealth of storytelling in the hands of a good director. Yes, Joss brings up valid points, but his points only highlight the challenges in working with Hulk, IMO. Not as proof it can't/shouldn't be done. I think Marvel should try again. Let the Hulk flap his wings again. If he plummets once more, then you know nothing changes. But, I doubt that happens since people like Ruffallo and Ruffallo gets the character.
Banner provides a wealth of non-powered storytelling, which is why Joss "a good director" Whedon's solution of downplaying the Hulk is such a great one. He offers a solution, and points out how the common request: a CGI fest, is a bad idea. I too think Marvel should try again, but go with the good ideas of a good director, and not spend 200M to do the same thing and hope it'll be different this time. I wouldn't spend 200M to hope something changes. I would spend 200M on a great idea that addresses all the known problems thoroughly.

Mark "Gets the character" Ruffalo's idea is do to an environmental message Hulk movie. I don't think that's the missing link. Might be a nice subplot though.

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I agree with Whedon that Planet Hulk is a bad idea. I wouldn't argue that point at all. I think you need Banner for Hulk to work. But the fact that the Hulk isn't a traditional superhero I don't think makes him impossible. Difficult, sure. But like any other character, it is just a challenge inherit in the character. You can approach Banner like Kane from Kung-Fu. The man who doesn't want to fight and will find ways in which to avoid it, but there is always that breaking point that requires the monster. Heck, now that Banner can at least guide the monster, it's easier to do a traditional storyline. I could see many possible stories. I would likely favor the Gamma Mutates and the Leader (since the set-up is there already), but you could do what the Hulk Ultimate Destruction game did, and maybe Ultron does something that creates the Maestro within Banner's mind, and he has to find a way to destroy him. What if he befriends SHIELD, and Ross decides to tinker and become Red Hulk? What if somehow the Hulk is entirely seperated into Banner, so Banner must find a way to become one with Hulk again (though that sort of rehashes TIH a bit, but this is all at the top of my head)? There are many stories you could go with for Hulk. Yes, there is always a budget concern, but I think Marvel would find a way to do it.
Gamma Mutates and the Leader offer the same exact problems as Planet Hulk: lots and lots and lots of CGI, not much Banner. And as you said, the rest are rehashes of TIH/AngHulk. There are many villains he can fight, no doubt, but when we talk about a direction for a movie... there's not a lot of those. There's not a lot of types of Hulk stories. The types of stories we've seen from Hulk, the most beloved Hulk stories do not work for the MCU. There needs to be a new type of Hulk story. A new villain is just a rehash of TIH/AngHulk.

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Old 01-26-2014, 09:39 PM   #116
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Default Re: MCU Phase 3: Have it your way - Part 1

I was thinking that they could do something similar to what Mark Waid is doing in his Indestructable Hulk series. Banner goes to work for SHIELD and agrees to help them out with things. In exchange, they agree to provide him with resources/funding/equipment so that he can use his scientific genius to help solve some of the world's problems/invent new tech. The Hulk can be used to HELP people. I feel that this would be a nice change of pace from the usual "Hulk on the run" plot that has been used in both movies and the TV show and has gotten stale at this point. It would work because it'd be Ruffalo for the bulk of the movie. The Hulk would only come out at certain points, which helps keep the budget under control.

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Old 01-26-2014, 09:46 PM   #117
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Default Re: MCU Phase 3: Have it your way - Part 1

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...but they also have to make him look better. Cinematic quality CGI is not going to be cheap or easy any time soon. Yesterday's CGI is cheaper and easier. Today's CGI will always be full price.
Marvel will make it work somehow. They have to this point, and I think that will continue.

Quote:
Banner provides a wealth of non-powered storytelling, which is why Joss "a good director" Whedon's solution of downplaying the Hulk is such a great one. He offers a solution, and points out how the common request: a CGI fest, is a bad idea. I too think Marvel should try again, but go with the good ideas of a good director, and not spend 200M to do the same thing and hope it'll be different this time. I wouldn't spend 200M to hope something changes. I would spend 200M on a great idea that addresses all the known problems thoroughly.

Mark "Gets the character" Ruffalo's idea is do to an environmental message Hulk movie. I don't think that's the missing link. Might be a nice subplot though.
Mark nails the character on camera though. That's enough I think. I agree more Banner and less Hulk is best way to go, but why can't you do Leader/Gamma Mutants in a Banner heavy story? Why are they mutually exclusive?


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Gamma Mutates and the Leader offer the same exact problems as Planet Hulk: lots and lots and lots of CGI, not much Banner. And as you said, the rest are rehashes of TIH/AngHulk. There are many villains he can fight, no doubt, but when we talk about a direction for a movie... there's not a lot of those. There's not a lot of types of Hulk stories. The types of stories we've seen from Hulk, the most beloved Hulk stories do not work for the MCU. There needs to be a new type of Hulk story. A new villain is just a rehash of TIH/AngHulk.
Gamma mutants wouldn't be out of left field like Planet Hulk is, though. Plus, he can be Banner in that story. As far as the others, I came up with those in like 5 secs, LOL! I can prob come up with a bunch more if I wanted. My point is, ideas are there.

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Old 01-27-2014, 12:19 AM   #118
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Marvel will make it work somehow. They have to this point, and I think that will continue.
They will continue to make it work... by not making a Hulk movie.

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Mark nails the character on camera though. That's enough I think. I agree more Banner and less Hulk is best way to go, but why can't you do Leader/Gamma Mutants in a Banner heavy story? Why are they mutually exclusive?

Gamma mutants wouldn't be out of left field like Planet Hulk is, though. Plus, he can be Banner in that story. As far as the others, I came up with those in like 5 secs, LOL! I can prob come up with a bunch more if I wanted. My point is, ideas are there.
My point is, the ideas all fall into the CGI-fest direction. They're all the same type of story: Hulk has a physical obstacle and Banner supports him. The reason the CGI-fest doesn't work as a Banner-centeric film is because Banner is not the center of a CGI-fest, Hulk is. Hulk has the chief interaction with the Gamma mutants, and is the one of interest to the Leader. Banner, his nature and motivations are not central to the plot, therefore, it's not a Banner-centric story. All your ideas, as are those of many Hulk fans are Hulk-Hulk-Banner-Hulk types of stories.That works great in comics, but not for the MCU.

What good is him nailing the character if the character is hardly as important as the Green Goliath and his unstoppableness and special blood and etc etc. A truly great, award winning Hulk movie, honestly, will end with Banner defeating the villain, not Hulk.

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Old 01-27-2014, 12:23 AM   #119
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I was thinking that they could do something similar to what Mark Waid is doing in his Indestructable Hulk series. Banner goes to work for SHIELD and agrees to help them out with things. In exchange, they agree to provide him with resources/funding/equipment so that he can use his scientific genius to help solve some of the world's problems/invent new tech. The Hulk can be used to HELP people. I feel that this would be a nice change of pace from the usual "Hulk on the run" plot that has been used in both movies and the TV show and has gotten stale at this point. It would work because it'd be Ruffalo for the bulk of the movie. The Hulk would only come out at certain points, which helps keep the budget under control.
I think another SHIELD franchise in the MCU would be redundant. We already have Captain America's franchise and Agents of SHIELD for that matter. Perhaps others would be fine with half the Avengers being SHIELD agents with SHIELD supporting cast and storylines. I'd pass, personally.

Hulk being used to help people is an important part of the MCU character, as it comes up at the end of TIH and Avengers. Being able to point it, to focus his rage. I suspect we'll see more of that regardless of the direction they go in.

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Old 01-27-2014, 12:27 AM   #120
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Default Re: MCU Phase 3: Have it your way - Part 1

Not to get off topic, but Guardians of Galaxy actor Dave Batista showed his true colors this week upon his return to the WWE.

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Old 01-27-2014, 06:13 AM   #121
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They will continue to make it work... by not making a Hulk movie.



My point is, the ideas all fall into the CGI-fest direction. They're all the same type of story: Hulk has a physical obstacle and Banner supports him. The reason the CGI-fest doesn't work as a Banner-centeric film is because Banner is not the center of a CGI-fest, Hulk is. Hulk has the chief interaction with the Gamma mutants, and is the one of interest to the Leader. Banner, his nature and motivations are not central to the plot, therefore, it's not a Banner-centric story. All your ideas, as are those of many Hulk fans are Hulk-Hulk-Banner-Hulk types of stories.That works great in comics, but not for the MCU.

What good is him nailing the character if the character is hardly as important as the Green Goliath and his unstoppableness and special blood and etc etc. A truly great, award winning Hulk movie, honestly, will end with Banner defeating the villain, not Hulk.
Once again, why can't you do the Leader idea and make it a Banner centric storyline? Why can't this be done? Why can't Banner interact with Leader and try to outthink him? Why can't it be Banner's mind that overcomes him in the end (maybe that is the struggle of the movie...showing Banner's heroism when not the green monster). Any story involving the Hulk needs a physical adversary for people to watch and enjoy on a visual level. It's part of Hulk's appeal. But, that doesn't mean the storyline CAN'T be about Banner. This is flawed logic. We just had an Iron Man movie where Stark barely had the armor! It was a point of emphasis in the movie, yet he still faced a foe that required IRON MAN in order to beat (not just Stark). Same can be done with Banner. Talented writers can do wonders these days. Hulk films can be about Banner. Most easily.

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Old 01-27-2014, 07:11 AM   #122
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Edit: Dang my answer was so long and tedious. Shortening.

Iron Man 3 is a great example. It was Tony-centric. IRON MAN didn't defeat any supervillains, unless you count the bald headed extremis guy. Because it was Tony-centric, talented writers made Tony the center, not found a way to get lots of IRON MAN while still keeping Tony the center. Talented writers leave bad ideas, like a Hulk-heavy movie on the table, not find a way to make bad ideas work, especially when they're not needed. Superpowers take a back seat in IM3, just like they would a Hulk-lite movie. Hulk would still have something to do, it might even be an army of Gamma mutants, but it would be short and sweet, like Air Force One, like the Extremis soldiers, not the main challenge for the main character. It would be Hulk's 12 minutes of screen time for spectacle, nothing more, not plot important stuff. Not the main enemies or the main challenges, because those all belong to the main character, Banner. In a great Hulk movie, Hulk would fail to defeat the villains, and it would fall to Banner to save the day.

Could it be Leader (I never said Leader, I said "Leader and Gamma Mutates")? Sure... but it wouldn't be like the comics Leader who cares only about Hulk, not under a talented writer, anyway.

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Old 01-27-2014, 08:58 AM   #123
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Default Re: MCU Phase 3: Have it your way - Part 1

As hard as making another hulk movie may possibly be, I don't feel like marvel can't do it. feige has already expressed interest in making one, so he's obviously not too afraid at taking another swing at it.

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Old 01-27-2014, 11:21 AM   #124
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Default Re: MCU Phase 3: Have it your way - Part 1

If he weren't afraid of the ideas we have now, we'd have one. (EDIT: or at least plans to do one in the future). He's a popular character, a great Hulk movie would do gangbusters, so it must be that they don't know how to make a great Hulk movie at the moment.

And again, I know they can do it, I never said they couldn't, but I have shown why it can't be a CGI-fest and pointed out how Whedon feels the same.

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Old 01-27-2014, 01:17 PM   #125
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...but I have shown...

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