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Old 01-19-2014, 01:50 AM   #51
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Default Re: Race and Gender in Marvel Movies - an all studios discussion

I think the movies have in some ways done better with minorities than comics but I do expect more minorities to appear in future marvel movies

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Old 01-19-2014, 02:45 PM   #52
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Default Re: Race and Gender in Marvel Movies - an all studios discussion

I'd like to see some of the new characters introduced in Hickman's The Avengers comics in future films.

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Old 01-19-2014, 06:47 PM   #53
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There's basically only one solid female franchise in the Big 2, and that's Wonder Woman.

I don't care what her proponents say, in my opinion Ms. Marvel is not a strong solo property. That's not because "women aren't as good as men." It's because, in a fan base dominated by young men, Marvel has failed to produce a female character who could pull off a long term solo book.

As for a black character, Black Panther is a strong property, where as DC doesn't really have a strong minority character (unless you count John Stewart subbing for Hal Jordan as being a property...)

I'm not sure I agree with characters with weaker storylines being adapted just to fill race/ gender quotas. I'd almost rather see race/ gender swaps of stronger characters than see mediocre characters get pushed ahead in line to fill a demographic.

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Old 01-19-2014, 08:26 PM   #54
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Default Re: Race and Gender in Marvel Movies - an all studios discussion

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There's basically only one solid female franchise in the Big 2, and that's Wonder Woman.

I don't care what her proponents say, in my opinion Ms. Marvel is not a strong solo property. That's not because "women aren't as good as men." It's because, in a fan base dominated by young men, Marvel has failed to produce a female character who could pull off a long term solo book.

As for a black character, Black Panther is a strong property, where as DC doesn't really have a strong minority character (unless you count John Stewart subbing for Hal Jordan as being a property...)

I'm not sure I agree with characters with weaker storylines being adapted just to fill race/ gender quotas. I'd almost rather see race/ gender swaps of stronger characters than see mediocre characters get pushed ahead in line to fill a demographic.
while I agree, mostly, don't you think that giving characters that never had that good stories in the books better stories in the movies is actually a good thing? with the right talents included the movie versions might actually get more exciting which would eventually help the characters in the 616 to get better writers attached to them to make them less dull/uninspired/whatever their issue is.
it also gives the writers of the movie more freedom if there is no definitive storyarc or interpretation.

If MS would make a Moondragon movie for example, a character that I really don't care that much about in the books, and the creative team of the movie is free to do everything they can to make me care about her, and if they succeed this would be an amazing win/win situation for them since my new found attraction to Moondragon is very likely to make me care for her more in the comic books also. sooner or later the book version will carefully adapted to be more in line with the film version. a superior version would suddenly be around and Marvel has one strong female character more.

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Old 01-19-2014, 09:03 PM   #55
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Default Re: Race and Gender in Marvel Movies - an all studios discussion

Also, the fact that female characters have trouble carrying solo titles is pretty irrelevant since ultimately, it's the GA that makes these movies successful. Some people seem to not get that fact. Comic book fans are a pretty small fraction of the audience who see these movies. Just because it doesn't work in the comics doesn't automatically mean that it can't work in the movies, and vice versa. Plus, She-Hulk, Spider-Woman, and Ms. Marvel have all had long-running solo books in the past.

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Old 01-20-2014, 02:58 AM   #56
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I'd like to see some of the new characters introduced in Hickman's The Avengers comics in future films.
I wouldn't really to be honest. They're kind of boring.

I would want to see ms marvel, black panther, hulkling and Wiccan appear before those guys do. The four I mentioned have such an interesting history with the marvel u and great personalities

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Old 01-20-2014, 10:09 AM   #57
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Default Re: Race and Gender in Marvel Movies - an all studios discussion

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Also, the fact that female characters have trouble carrying solo titles is pretty irrelevant since ultimately, it's the GA that makes these movies successful. Some people seem to not get that fact. Comic book fans are a pretty small fraction of the audience who see these movies. Just because it doesn't work in the comics doesn't automatically mean that it can't work in the movies, and vice versa. Plus, She-Hulk, Spider-Woman, and Ms. Marvel have all had long-running solo books in the past.
While I agree, the problem is that movies have a similar bias. I suspect its that bias that matters more: if Hollywood had faith that the audience would go see a female-led action movie, they'd have made a Wonder Woman movie already, no matter its comic sales.

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Old 01-20-2014, 10:23 AM   #58
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Default Re: Race and Gender in Marvel Movies - an all studios discussion

I just got back into reading Marvel and DC comics in the past year or so but in the marvel universe how many heroes are minorities or female? I can only think of a few.

Storm

Bishop

Black Panther

Miles Morles (Ultimate Spider Man)

Luke Cage

Ultimate Nick Fury

Like I said I recently just got back into reading comics heavily a year or so ago so I could be missing some in the Marvel Universe.

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Old 01-20-2014, 10:43 AM   #59
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Django Unchained made 425 million worldwide.

Now please explain why a superhero who's a mix of Thor and Iron man couldn't make as much as a slavery movie.
Django's budget was like 100 million and it was R rated which on average is going to make a lot less money than a PG-13 film. When you spend 150-200 million on the budget of a PG13 movie I think they are going to expect much much more than 425 world-wide

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Old 01-20-2014, 12:10 PM   #60
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Default Re: Race and Gender in Marvel Movies - an all studios discussion

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Also, the fact that female characters have trouble carrying solo titles is pretty irrelevant since ultimately, it's the GA that makes these movies successful. Some people seem to not get that fact. Comic book fans are a pretty small fraction of the audience who see these movies. Just because it doesn't work in the comics doesn't automatically mean that it can't work in the movies, and vice versa. Plus, She-Hulk, Spider-Woman, and Ms. Marvel have all had long-running solo books in the past.
To me, a solo character needs to have three-four things to be worthy of carrying a movie:

- A unique, independent origin story (as in, not derived/ shared with another character or team.)
- An exclusive set of supporting characters (love interests, civilian bosses, best friends etc.)
- A unique gallery of rogues who have a deep, personal feud with the main protagonist. (As opposed to characters who run into the main character in sort of arbitrary hero vs villain issues.)
- Bringing something unique to the table in general, whether it be a set of powers we've yet to see on the big screen, a unique location (Attilan, Wakanda, Atlantis) or a general concept (First MCU Spy film, first MCU political thriller etc.)


Despite their popularity, Ms. Marvel and She-Hulk fail to tick off most of these boxes. Black Panther on the other hand, checks off almost all of them.

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Old 01-20-2014, 02:07 PM   #61
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Default Re: Race and Gender in Marvel Movies - an all studios discussion

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I think I've posted about this topic somewhere on this site before, but it could have been elsewhere. I'll try to be as brief as possible.

My general preference is that filmmakers remain true to the source material when casting actors for a film. There are exceptions, but that is usually my preference. That's also my preference in the source material itself.

I'm African-American, so I will speak specifically to the practice of altering characters to appeal to someone like me. Personally, I don't want a Black Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman, Spiderman, Captain America or Iron Man on screen or in the comics. I want filmmakers, comic book publishers and animators to make me care about Black characters that already exist, and I want them to continue to create new Black characters. Help me to become even more invested in Black Lightning, Vixen, Monica Rambeau, Falcon, Bumblebee and Static. Make me care more about Cloak, Icon, Luke Cage, Blue Marvel, Mal Duncan, Falcon, Misty Knight, etc.

I'm not saying Michael B. Jordan wouldn't be good as Johnny Storm. He's a talented actor...I'm sure he'd be great. I'm not saying that Samuel L. Jackson, Kerry Washington, Michael Clarke Duncan and Laurence Fishburne didn't do well as Nick Fury, Alicia Masters, Kingpin and Perry White. Again, tremendous actors...of course they were awesome. I'm just saying that even though the end results of these decisions generally work out very well, I'd still prefer to see these characters portrayed as they were originally intended by their creators.

My desire is not "hey, we need to diversify the Avengers in future films, so let's cast a Black woman as Wasp!" My desire is for Marvel Comics and animation to make someone like Monica Rambeau so undeniably awesome that the directors/writers of future MCU films think to themselves "what an amazing character...how could we not include her?"
To make a character truly important after years of third stringer status takes a brilliant writer, a lot of work, and time. You're not going to make Monica Rambeau a top 10 Marvel character in time for a Phase 3 movie.

I honestly don't think Black characters are a weakness in Marvel, though. Runaways are lead by a black teenager, and Blade, Black Panther and Luke Cage are characters capable of carrying their own solo films. That may not be a ton of options, but it's better than their female options, who are all spin-off or shared origin/ team characters.

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Old 01-20-2014, 04:07 PM   #62
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Default Re: Race and Gender in Marvel Movies - an all studios discussion

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To me, a solo character needs to have three-four things to be worthy of carrying a movie:

- A unique, independent origin story (as in, not derived/ shared with another character or team.)
- An exclusive set of supporting characters (love interests, civilian bosses, best friends etc.)
- A unique gallery of rogues who have a deep, personal feud with the main protagonist. (As opposed to characters who run into the main character in sort of arbitrary hero vs villain issues.)
- Bringing something unique to the table in general, whether it be a set of powers we've yet to see on the big screen, a unique location (Attilan, Wakanda, Atlantis) or a general concept (First MCU Spy film, first MCU political thriller etc.)


Despite their popularity, Ms. Marvel and She-Hulk fail to tick off most of these boxes. Black Panther on the other hand, checks off almost all of them.
I do hear you, but it isn't as if the MCU has been shy about changing things around from the comics to make them work.

Distance Carol from Mar-Vell; maybe make him be a morally ambiguous antagonist who sometimes questions his superior's methods (not a co-hero; though I'd at least give him a redemptive death). Possibly avoid the romantic undertones between them. Don't even have Carol adopt his name or outfit, if that's a problem (she has others to pick from). To make it more personal, have Carol's origin be a deliberate act of Kree tinkering, stemming from the Kree's curiosity in human potential, rather than a random accidental afterthought resulting from Mar-Vell and Yon-Rogg's feud. Depending on Ronan's arc (and Pace's performance) in GotG, throw him in as the big bad. And Carol does have some unique supporting characters that could be used: Michael Rossi, Tracy Burke... maybe throw in Monica Rambeau for kicks (not canon, but that's OK). She doesn't even necessarily need a full trilogy, just set her up with a solo origin movie, so she can have a role in future Avengers (or even GotG) sequels.

I know this doesn't solve all of the problems, but there are other things could be changed as well. Of course, some of this will depend on Ronan's arc in GotG, and what they plan to do with the Inhumans.

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Old 01-20-2014, 04:19 PM   #63
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Default Re: Race and Gender in Marvel Movies - an all studios discussion

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I think I've posted about this topic somewhere on this site before, but it could have been elsewhere. I'll try to be as brief as possible.

My general preference is that filmmakers remain true to the source material when casting actors for a film. There are exceptions, but that is usually my preference. That's also my preference in the source material itself.

I'm African-American, so I will speak specifically to the practice of altering characters to appeal to someone like me. Personally, I don't want a Black Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman, Spiderman, Captain America or Iron Man on screen or in the comics. I want filmmakers, comic book publishers and animators to make me care about Black characters that already exist, and I want them to continue to create new Black characters. Help me to become even more invested in Black Lightning, Vixen, Monica Rambeau, Falcon, Bumblebee and Static. Make me care more about Cloak, Icon, Luke Cage, Blue Marvel, Mal Duncan, Falcon, Misty Knight, etc.

I'm not saying Michael B. Jordan wouldn't be good as Johnny Storm. He's a talented actor...I'm sure he'd be great. I'm not saying that Samuel L. Jackson, Kerry Washington, Michael Clarke Duncan and Laurence Fishburne didn't do well as Nick Fury, Alicia Masters, Kingpin and Perry White. Again, tremendous actors...of course they were awesome. I'm just saying that even though the end results of these decisions generally work out very well, I'd still prefer to see these characters portrayed as they were originally intended by their creators.

My desire is not "hey, we need to diversify the Avengers in future films, so let's cast a Black woman as Wasp!" My desire is for Marvel Comics and animation to make someone like Monica Rambeau so undeniably awesome that the directors/writers of future MCU films think to themselves "what an amazing character...how could we not include her?"
I'm black too and I 100% agree with this.

There are black characters around that a writer with some imagination can do something with if they tried. Show a little creative and imagination. Comic companies promote and black minority superhero for more than just publicity or diversity reason. I don't want to be pandered to. I don't want comic companies making some white character black as a way of throwing us minorities a bone.

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Old 01-20-2014, 04:36 PM   #64
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Default Re: Race and Gender in Marvel Movies - an all studios discussion

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I just got back into reading Marvel and DC comics in the past year or so but in the marvel universe how many heroes are minorities or female? I can only think of a few.

Storm

Bishop

Black Panther

Miles Morles (Ultimate Spider Man)

Luke Cage

Ultimate Nick Fury

Like I said I recently just got back into reading comics heavily a year or so ago so I could be missing some in the Marvel Universe.
Black Marvel superheroes I can think of. Many of these are either dead or in limbo though.

Patriot, Bill Foster (Black Goliath), Tom Foster (Goliath), Power Man (Victor Alvarez), Angel Salvadore (X-Men), Alex Wider (Runaways), Idie Okonkwo (Oya,X-Men), Nightmask (Avengers), Deathlok, Isaiash Bradley (Black Captain America), Misty Knight, Gentle (X-Men), Gabe Jones (SHIELD/Howling Commandos), GW Bridge (SHIELD), Frenzy (X-Men), Cecilia Reyes (X-Men), Captain Universe (Avengers), Brother Voodoo, Darwin (X-Men), Sunspot (X-Men), Prodigy (Young Avengers), Rage, Rocket Racer, Shard, Silhouette, Triathlon, 3-D Man, Shift, Howitzer, Tag, Synch and Bedlam.

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Old 01-20-2014, 06:27 PM   #65
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Default Re: Race and Gender in Marvel Movies - an all studios discussion

Why do you guys think there haven't been any non-Caucasian or non-male superhero movies in so long?

They have options with John Stewart, Cyborg, Black Panther, Luke Cage, War Machine, Ultimate Spider-Man, Wonder Woman, Ms Marvel. Yet none of these (except Rhodes) has been introduced as even a supporting character let alone leading a movie.

War Machine is in prime position to lead a movie, yet nothing.

People would say "instead of changing the race of an existing character just introduce characters that are already that race"

But the studios aren't, they've all been selecting only white males as the leads, why?

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Old 01-20-2014, 06:34 PM   #66
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Why do you guys think there haven't been any non-Caucasian or non-male superhero movies in so long?

They have options with John Stewart, Cyborg, Black Panther, Luke Cage, War Machine, Ultimate Spider-Man, Wonder Woman, Ms Marvel. Yet none of these (except Rhodes) has been introduced as even a supporting character let alone leading a movie.

War Machine is in prime position to lead a movie, yet nothing.

People would say "instead of changing the race of an existing character just introduce characters that are already that race"

But the studios aren't, they've all been selecting only white males as the leads, why?
Because many big studios seem to have this idea that if a blockbuster doesn't have a white, cis, straight male lead that it's doomed to fail and if they don't fail, it's the exception?

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Old 01-20-2014, 07:12 PM   #67
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Default Re: Race and Gender in Marvel Movies - an all studios discussion

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Why do you guys think there haven't been any non-Caucasian or non-male superhero movies in so long?

They have options with John Stewart, Cyborg, Black Panther, Luke Cage, War Machine, Ultimate Spider-Man, Wonder Woman, Ms Marvel. Yet none of these (except Rhodes) has been introduced as even a supporting character let alone leading a movie

War Machine is in prime position to lead a movie, yet nothing.

People would say "instead of changing the race of an existing character just introduce characters that are already that race"

But the studios aren't, they've all been selecting only white males as the leads, why?
I can understand Marvel up this point. Cap, Iron Man, Thor, and Hulk are the biggest names they have and obviously should be the top priority. But now that their films are out and Marvel is moving on to the Ant-Mans and Rocket Raccoons, it is time for some female and minority heroes, if only for some variety.


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Old 01-20-2014, 07:56 PM   #68
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Default Re: Race and Gender in Marvel Movies - an all studios discussion

Just out of curiosity, does Sony own movie rights to Ultimate Spider-man? The guy who isn't Ultimate Peter, I mean.

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Old 01-20-2014, 08:48 PM   #69
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They own the movie rights to Spider Man and his supporting cast. Miles Morales falls under that banner, so the answer is yes.

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Old 01-20-2014, 08:51 PM   #70
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Why do you guys think there haven't been any non-Caucasian or non-male superhero movies in so long?

They have options with John Stewart, Cyborg, Black Panther, Luke Cage, War Machine, Ultimate Spider-Man, Wonder Woman, Ms Marvel. Yet none of these (except Rhodes) has been introduced as even a supporting character let alone leading a movie.

War Machine is in prime position to lead a movie, yet nothing.

People would say "instead of changing the race of an existing character just introduce characters that are already that race"

But the studios aren't, they've all been selecting only white males as the leads, why?
Well, to be fair, I'll give them a little credit.
1. Falcon is a major character in TWS.
2. Luke Cage is getting his own TV show on Netflix and will be part of the Defenders TV show as well.
3. The Rock has mentioned that he's playing a role in a future DC project, and has teased that it might be John Stewart.

It's still NOWHERE near good enough, but it's a TINY start.

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Old 01-21-2014, 01:23 AM   #71
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To make a character truly important after years of third stringer status takes a brilliant writer, a lot of work, and time. You're not going to make Monica Rambeau a top 10 Marvel character in time for a Phase 3 movie.

I honestly don't think Black characters are a weakness in Marvel, though. Runaways are lead by a black teenager, and Blade, Black Panther and Luke Cage are characters capable of carrying their own solo films. That may not be a ton of options, but it's better than their female options, who are all spin-off or shared origin/ team characters.
Believe me, I'm not under any delusion that Monica Rambeau will appear in a phase 3 movie. Or phase 4. Or phase 5. Or ever. I hope I'm wrong about that, but I'm not expecting it. I was just stating what I would like to see instead of the practice of altering caucasian superheroes in order to diversify a film (or even a comic book series). I was using Monica as an example, as she is my favorite heroine.

I do agree that Marvel Comics does a fairly decent job with Black characters, though. Black Panther, Storm and Luke Cage have been prominent characters in recent years. The Mighty Avengers title has assembled a cast of primarily Black characters. And even Marvel Studios has included War Machine and now Falcon in their films. They're giving Luke Cage his own Netflix series before the Defenders team-up...who knows what will happen with him from there? So, yes...Marvel's not TERRIBLE, but things could be better.

It's only natural for someone to want to go to the movies and see a character who looks like themselves in a lead role (I can only imagine what Latinos, Asians and other ethic groups must feel). That's why many of us are anxious to see Marvel finally get a Black Panther film into production. In my opinion, the first Black superhero in comics should also be the first to lead his own MCU film.

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Old 01-21-2014, 01:49 AM   #72
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I'm black too and I 100% agree with this.

There are black characters around that a writer with some imagination can do something with if they tried. Show a little creative and imagination. Comic companies promote and black minority superhero for more than just publicity or diversity reason. I don't want to be pandered to. I don't want comic companies making some white character black as a way of throwing us minorities a bone.
Exactly. For example, I love the Wasp. But I don't want her to be Black just to fill some imaginary quota. I want to see the Janet Van Dyne that I've been reading about for over 30 years now. (Yes, I'm old)

Find writers with a passion for these existing Black characters who can make them relevant to comic readers, and then translate that to film down the road. Find the next Dwayne McDuffie. I know that would take a long time. I know it's not an overnight process. I can wait. But when they're making movies featuring a talking racoon and tree, it really does open the door to a lot of possibilities.

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Old 01-21-2014, 02:14 AM   #73
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Default Re: Race and Gender in Marvel Movies - an all studios discussion

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Originally Posted by ShadowBoxer View Post
I just got back into reading Marvel and DC comics in the past year or so but in the marvel universe how many heroes are minorities or female? I can only think of a few.

Storm

Bishop

Black Panther

Miles Morles (Ultimate Spider Man)

Luke Cage

Ultimate Nick Fury

Like I said I recently just got back into reading comics heavily a year or so ago so I could be missing some in the Marvel Universe.
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Originally Posted by chamber-music View Post
Black Marvel superheroes I can think of. Many of these are either dead or in limbo though.

Patriot, Bill Foster (Black Goliath), Tom Foster (Goliath), Power Man (Victor Alvarez), Angel Salvadore (X-Men), Alex Wider (Runaways), Idie Okonkwo (Oya,X-Men), Nightmask (Avengers), Deathlok, Isaiash Bradley (Black Captain America), Misty Knight, Gentle (X-Men), Gabe Jones (SHIELD/Howling Commandos), GW Bridge (SHIELD), Frenzy (X-Men), Cecilia Reyes (X-Men), Captain Universe (Avengers), Brother Voodoo, Darwin (X-Men), Sunspot (X-Men), Prodigy (Young Avengers), Rage, Rocket Racer, Shard, Silhouette, Triathlon, 3-D Man, Shift, Howitzer, Tag, Synch and Bedlam.
chamber-music answered this much better than I could have, as I've only gotten back into reading comics in the past couple of years myself, after an extended absence. The films drew me back in, along with the Justice League/Justice League Unlimited, Young Justice and Avengers: Earth's Mightiest Heroes animated series.

The only omissions that jump out to me are Monica Rambeau a.k.a. Captain Marvel/Photon/Pulsar/Spectrum, Falcon, War Machine, Blue Marvel and Cloak.

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Old 01-21-2014, 03:00 AM   #74
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Default Re: Race and Gender in Marvel Movies - an all studios discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by KangConquers View Post
To make a character truly important after years of third stringer status takes a brilliant writer, a lot of work, and time.
I kinda disagree with this. In the end it's up to the publisher who they want to push. Matt Fraction did a brilliant run with Iron Fist in recent years, Dan Abnett aswell with Nova and Rick Remender with Venom.

All were cancelled after a year or two, Nova was even replaced with a punk kid. But the flagships like Spider-Man and Wolverine are never cancelled just relaunched.

Those three I mentioned and others had built up fanbases and could've gone the distance to become A-listers, if they kept up with them.

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Old 01-21-2014, 03:45 AM   #75
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Default Re: Race and Gender in Marvel Movies - an all studios discussion

There was honestly more ongoing solo minority comics in the 90's than there is now which is slightly odd.

Not all of them lasted more than a couple of years but Blade, War Machine, Steel, Black Panther, Luke Cage, Bishop all had solo comics.

Mister Terrific and Static Shock didn't last long. Miles Morles (Ultimate Spider Man) is going ok and War Machine is getting another shot at an ongoing under the Iron Patriot name.

It is strange that more original black solo hero books don't do better. I wonder why that is?

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