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Old 01-29-2014, 01:46 PM   #26
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Default Re: Do you see TDKR's reputation growing in future years?

Yeah and trilogies take the three act structure of storytelling and does it over the course of 3 films. I think it's the best way to tell an epic narrative.

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Old 01-29-2014, 01:49 PM   #27
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Default Re: Do you see TDKR's reputation growing in future years?

Yep, and I think putting actual time between the three stories helps it live and breathe with you. It sinks into your bones...and stuff.

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Old 01-29-2014, 02:02 PM   #28
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Yep, and I think putting actual time between the three stories helps it live and breathe with you. It sinks into your bones...and stuff.

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Old 01-29-2014, 02:16 PM   #29
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A) Box-office numbers

Because crappy movies have never made bank at the box office . . .

I saw TDKR four times in theaters, twice in IMAX, and loathe it. I can't be the only one out there, can I? Hmmmm.




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B) Rotten Tomatoes having an 88 percent rating. With an audience rating of 90 percent. Compared to Begins which is at 85 percent even though the audience rating is higher.


C) IMDB has Rises placed at #47 in their top 250. While Begins is at #104.

And I look at their discussions board and see the same questioning of TDKR's perceived quality, "is it really good?", "anyone else feel it sucked?", etc. etc.

What's that say? Sure, compare it to Begins, the 2005 Batman film that was riding off the rotten fumes of the panned failure, Batman and Robin. Begins had little to prove (overcome) and was a nice, humble success. A great surprise for fans and a welcome addition to the character's cinematic history after 7 years of no Batman. You know what TDKR was riding off of? The Dark Knight's coat tails, especially with it's lack of imagination with title, villain prologue and ending. Arguably the most lauded comic book film of the decade. One of the films (along with Avengers and Iron Man) sitting on it's throne with a solid A all across the boards where little criticism can be found.

Being a sequel to Dark Knight, Dark Knight should be what it's compared to. It failed to be neck and neck with it, plain and simple. The objective of a sequel is usually to go bigger, badder and stronger than the predecessor (which Nolan and Co. clearly tried to do), but they didn't. The Dark Knight is the better film and TDKR pales in comparison. That's disappoint and disappoint can lead to bad feelings to something that is advertised as "TEH EPIC CONCLUSION TO THE DARK KNIGHT TRILOGY" (oh, this was a "Dark Knight Trilogy" now? Alrighty then). After Begins, it felt like the sky was the limit. It could go anywhere. The Dark Knight went there and beyond. TDKR? It sort of just "borrowed" from what came before it, that's underwhelming. After Begins, the bar was set. It could go either way. Once Dark Knight came out, the bar was set pretty damn high. TDKR didn't even touch it's heels. I guess if people are cool with mediocrity, than TDKR fills that void quite well. Sorry if other people expect sequels to give me more for my buck than what came before.




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D)Word of mouth both in where i live personally and online. Even though message boards contain the true fanboys that pick it apart.
Interview the people in your town. Show me screen caps of where you go on the internet where there aren't "fanboys" picking it apart. I'll admit, I'm a fanboy. But then again, aren't there different fractions of "fanboy". You and your ilk are certainly TDKR fanboys. Internet accessibility may vary.

I still see no concrete proof as of January 29th, 2014 at 2:45PM that TDKR is a "great movie". That's an opinion, not a fact. I find it funny that, "well, the internet and fanboys don't really count, they're a loud minority" when most of the above you've listed as your proof is just that, the INTERNET. Channels where, if I was an obsessed individual wanting everyone to see that the movie I loved had merit, could preach, sign up and spread that message. The messages I'm seeing now? On here (Hype), comic boards, film sites, collector sites, youtube, etc.? They're all questioning TDKR's reputation, they're all ripping it or making fun of it or finding problems with it. That doesn't sound like a "GREAT" film to me.

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Id rather a box set mentality than just see loosely connected sequels like the Bond movies or sequel after sequel with actor changes and director changes until the lines get blurred and/or the franchise is run into the ground in the same way Burton's movies led into Shumachers.
Still a bad mentality.

Films should be judged as they are, what you feel at that moment you're watching them, not lumped in as one to bolster sales (from a crazy franchise like 007 with what feels like thousands of different caretakers, to a series like the Raimi Spider-Man films where nothing was "blurred"). I love Spider-Man 2, I hate Spider-Man 3. I don't let 3 ruin my enjoyment of the other two films. I love the Dark Knight, I hate TDKR. I don't let it ruin my enjoyment of the other two films.

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But as for the complaints on Rises specifically? I only see it when i go on a messageboard. Or when a hardcore fanboy goes on some social media thing to talk smack. In the grand scheme of things, it's barely relevant. Sure word of mouth can be strong but it's only been a year and a half since the movie came out. Look at the hate 2001: A Space Odyssey or Bladerunner or Clockwork Orange received back in the day. Now look at how they're viewed. But i dont even think that's the case with Rises because the majority view it as a great movie that has very high ratings and reviews.
Again, you're comparing TDKR to other films where the argument doesn't even fit.

You said it yourself, those movies were flops back in the day (for a couple of decades I might add). According to you, TDKR has been perceived as "great film" from the get go. Those times could be a changin' pal. The way I see it, it already has. TDKR doesn't have the same steam it had for the first few months of it's realease, each year it seems like it's floating away in this forgotten phantom zone.

I think that's what TDKR fanboys fear the most, not, "is it bad/is it good", no, will people even care about it? When a movie is praised as a gift from God before it's even shown (I can still recall all the rooting and hollering that this "epic conclusion" would yield some prestigious awards, I had to laugh when it couldn't even nab MTV movie awards). Where else is there to go from those levels? Dowwwwwwwwwwwn baby.

On the other hand, the Dark Knight's reputation should be untouchable, as long as people don't let TDKR taint it. Ledger as the Joker is enough for it to stand alone.

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Like Shika just said, the majority are the people who liked it and didnt care so they moved on. There you go. The majority seemed to like it. So why would it damage the trilogy?
Or didn't like it and didn't care.

You keep talking about how it's the "fanboys' expressing their hyperbole", yet, how is one supposed to express how they felt without online activity and message boards? They can't.

So how do I know that the majority is someone that doesn't contribute (or doesn't contribute) LOOOOOOOVED the movie? I don't. That's the conundrum. That's while you'll never hear me state that, "everyone hates TDKR" because I know it's not true. I highly doubt a majority thinks it's great though, maybe back in 2012, but not now. And let's say you're right (and Anno for that matter considering that's all he'd state), the majority thinks TDKR is just great! Superb cinema! Well, as evidenced, things change. People change.

I HATED Batman Returns when I saw it. I hated it for two decades. Guess what? I'm quite fond of it now. I LOVED Blade Runner when I was in my 20s, now, for the life of me I don't quite understand what I saw in it (or all of it's damn director's cuts). People change, things change. You, Shauner, may come back to TDKR (if you ever leave it), pop that sucker in and puke. You just never know. We get older, tastes change. I didn't always love brussels sprouts, now I love them (with bacon). That's that. It's a moot point to bring up "majorities and minorities", they're non-existent, it's a perceived number, not the real number. There's just you, me, and everyone involved in any given discussion at hand. You hate it, I love it. I love it, you hate it. That's that.


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Old 01-29-2014, 02:24 PM   #30
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Fair enough. I can respect that but let's just agree to disagree about this part "the objective of a sequel is usually to go bigger, badder and stronger than the predecessor (which Nolan and Co. clearly tried to do), but they didn't. The Dark Knight is the better film and TDKR pales in comparison". I happen to think that TDKR was a bigger, badder and stronger sequel and that it's a better film.

I guess we'll just have to see what people say about the movie years from now.

It's a controversial film, ill give it that. You have the great and high reviews/scores from IMDB, Rotten Tomatoes, filmmakers, actors, classic comic book writers all praising the movie. Yet a lot of hardcore batman fans can't stand it or think it fell short from the previous movies.


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Old 01-29-2014, 02:27 PM   #31
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Pfft, I'm not agreeing.

The Dark Knight has a better score across the board than TDKR (plus, fanboys agree), therefor it is better. My logic is irrefutable, no?

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Old 01-29-2014, 02:32 PM   #32
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TDKR didn't even touch it's heels. I guess if people are cool with mediocrity, than TDKR fills that void quite well. Sorry if other people expect sequels to give me more for my buck than what came before.
Wait now, you're not going there are you? People like me who love TDKR are cool with mediocrity is essentially what you're saying? Man, if I broadly insulted people's tastes like that...C. Lee would ban me, I'm sure of it.

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I think that's what TDKR fanboys fear the most, not, "is it bad/is it good", no, will people even care about it? When a movie is praised as a gift from God before it's even shown (I can still recall all the rooting and hollering that this "epic conclusion" would yield some prestigious awards, I had to laugh when it couldn't even nab MTV movie awards). Where else is there to go from those levels? Dowwwwwwwwwwwn baby.
You know what else took a hit due to being perceived as "overrated"? The Dark Knight baby. If you didn't see this happening between 08 and 12, you weren't looking in the right places, and certainly weren't reading this message board.

Actually on the contrary to what you've been saying about TDKR "tainting" TDK, TDK seems to have gotten a lift post-TDKR and it's now cool again to call it the best movie ever.

In the end I think things will even out though, as future generations will experience the trilogy without any of that added hype (aside from what their older brothers tell them).

Side note...brussel sprouts with bacon rule.

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Old 01-29-2014, 02:39 PM   #33
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Sure, you have some sets of three in the mix that I wouldn't necessarily classify as a "capital T" trilogy", like Raimi's Spider-Man movies.

Weeeellllllll why not?

Spider-Man - Establishment of Peter Parker's world, "this is my gift, this is my curse".

Spider-Man 2 - The rising action of Peter Parker's turmoil, "why can't I have the things I want".

Spider-Man 3 - Goes back to it's predecessors, focuses on all those tensions (Responsibility, relationships, revenge, etc.) and climaxes.


Bing, Bam boom. I know why you don't though, why you wouldn't consider it with "a capital T". It's the same reason I wouldn't. Spider-Man 3 blows. When it comes to trilogies, your mileage will vary. Just because our ancestors utilized them for story telling with great success doesn't mean they work with modern cinema. Few do, so it's either here nor there.

As for "EPIC", everything is epic marketed to the naive 13 year old. That's not an insult to anyone here either, that's the truth. Everything is "teh epic", TDKR was no different. It was on Transformers or ASM2 levels of epic where they're throwing everything in, including the kitchen sink. Cliched, predictable, destruction porn. Man of Steel was more "epic" than all of those combined, our hero faced real challenges! But yeah, I don't see people being head over heals over MoS.

Story lines, EPIC narrative and character arcs? The "oh my god, amazing journey of Bruce Wayne"?, "They gave him a 'happy ending' that made me cry!". Been there, done that. It's over. Bruce Wayne began, quit/retired, came back again, was retired into submission, came back again, retired. My goodness, that is some storytelling the Greeks would be quite proud of. Our hero is schizo.


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Old 01-29-2014, 02:43 PM   #34
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Weeeellllllll why not?

Spider-Man - Establishment of Peter Parker's world, "this is my gift, this is my curse".

Spider-Man 2 - The rising action of Peter Parker's turmoil, "why can't I have the things I want".

Spider-Man 3 - Goes back to it's predecessors, focuses on all those tensions (Responsibility, relationships, revenge, etc.) and climaxes.


Bing, Bam boom. I know why you don't though, why you wouldn't consider it with "a capital T". It's the same reason I wouldn't. Spider-Man 3 blows. When it comes to trilogies, your mileage will vary. Just because our ancestors utilized them for story telling with great success doesn't mean they work with modern cinema. Few do, so it's either here nor there.

As for "EPIC", everything is epic marketed to the naive 13 year old. That's not an insult to anyone here either, that's the truth. Everything is "teh epic", TDKR was no different. It was on Transformers or ASM2 levels of epic where they're throwing everything in, including the kitchen sink. Cliched, predictable, destruction porn. Man of Steel was more "epic" than all of those combined.

Story lines? The "oh my god, amazing journey of Bruce Wayne"?, "They gave him a 'happy ending' that made me cry!". Been there, done that. It's over.
Wrong. I don't consider it a "true" trilogy simply because I didn't feel it offered enough of a resolution for Peter's character arc. It resolved Harry's story, sure. So it makes the Spider-Man trilogy Harry's trilogy in an odd sort of way. But I do not think Peter had finished his growth as a character. Things with him and MJ were left up in the air. The fact that the series wasn't supposed to end there and they were going to do a fourth is why I don't consider it a "true" trilogy.

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Bruce Wayne began, quit/retired, came back again, was retired into submission, came back again, retired. My goodness, that is some storytelling the Greeks would be quite proud of. Our hero is schizo.
Yup, and that's ALL that happened over the course of three movies. No important themes were explored or anything like that.

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Old 01-29-2014, 02:43 PM   #35
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Pfft, I'm not agreeing.

The Dark Knight has a better score across the board than TDKR (plus, fanboys agree), therefor it is better. My logic is irrefutable, no?
Score doesn't affect my opinions of a movie, and it doesn't mean it's automatically better. Better is subjective. But we are talking about what the general audience thinks as well as the fans as a whole. Im giving you just a couple of things like IMDB, Rotten Tomatoes, and have given you some opinions from major directors, celebs and writers like Denny O'Neill or Paul Dini. Now for me personally it means nothing because if all of these people said they loved Avatar that wouldnt change how i feel about it. I dont like the movie plain and simple. But it's what im giving you anyway as facts. All you're giving me is the opinions of messageboard/internet fans who can't stand the movie. But whatever that's fine.

So you dont want to agree to disagree? So you're just going to act arrogant like your opinion is correct when you say that it wasnt a bigger or better movie? You think it wasnt, i think it was. Who cares? We could just agree to disagree about that part, but you dont want to because why? You want to keep arguing about it, or because you think you're right and people are beneath you? Which one is it?

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Old 01-29-2014, 02:45 PM   #36
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Wrong. I don't consider it a "true" trilogy simply because I didn't feel it offered enough of a resolution for Peter's character arc. It resolved Harry's story, sure. So it makes the Spider-Man trilogy Harry's trilogy in an odd sort of way. But I do not think Peter had finished his growth as a character. Things with him and MJ were left up in the air. The fact that the series wasn't supposed to end there and they were going to do a fourth is why I don't consider it a "true" trilogy.
It's not a true trilogy because it makes it seem like Spider-Man goes on to face other people in more sequels. They literally wrote the 4th movie, cast the actors and then it was canceled. A trilogy shouldn't just be about 3 films, it's about how the story progresses.

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Old 01-29-2014, 02:48 PM   #37
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Well, I think it's possible to have a trilogy end without retiring or killing the hero. My argument is just that Spider-Man 3 left things in a state of flux with Peter and MJ and where they were at emotionally. There was no definitive conclusive feeling to it. Because it was never meant to be a conclusion. Even TDK feels more conclusive than Spider-Man 3.

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Old 01-29-2014, 02:55 PM   #38
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Wait now, you're not going there are you? People like me who love TDKR are cool with mediocrity is essentially what you're saying? Man, if I broadly insulted people's tastes like that...C. Lee would ban me, I'm sure of it.
Well that's where it seems we're at now when it comes to TDKR. What else is there beyond, "well I don't agree"? It's the same tired discussions we've had over and over again, the next logical step is just blatantly telling the other person that "their feelings are wrong, here's why". That's what majority and minority discussions will do because the crux of the argument is always going to be that what the majority feels is the right line of thinking while how other folks feel doesn't really matter. It doesn't have to be said out right to get that point. Why else would anyone bother to bring that sort of argument up (especially when it doesn't matter for here and now)? I don't think C. Lee would ban you for that either, even if he doesn't agree with your opinion on the matter. I think you overreacted a bit there.



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You know what else took a hit due to being perceived as "overrated"? The Dark Knight baby. If you didn't see this happening between 08 and 12, you weren't looking in the right places, and certainly weren't reading this message board.
People would come in and try to take it down, sure. I remember those individuals quite well. I remember the complaints and criticisms quite well, from "how did da Joker do that" to "why did Batman take the fall". Still didn't change the fact that it was usually 3 people against 40-50 compared to the 5 vs. 5 going on here now.

It was NOTHING like now though, probably because fans then were too focused on the prospects of a sequel, which benefited Dark Knight in a way. Now? The series is over.

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Actually on the contrary to what you've been saying about TDKR "tainting" TDK, TDK seems to have gotten a lift post-TDKR and it's now cool again to call it the best movie ever.
Did it? Where?

Because all I keep seeing is, "man, TDKR contradicted Dark Knight and it's great, Batmanesque ending", "shoooot, Batman quit because of Rachel? *cue pro-TDKR crowd to chime in that it wasn't Rachel*. Hmmm, I'll have to look through this section and see what I find.


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Side note...brussel sprouts with bacon rule.

Okay C. Lee, forget what I suggested. Batlobster needs to stay.


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Old 01-29-2014, 02:55 PM   #39
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Well, I think it's possible to have a trilogy end without retiring or killing the hero. My argument is just that Spider-Man 3 left things in a state of flux with Peter and MJ and where they were at emotionally. There was no definitive conclusive feeling to it. Because it was never meant to be a conclusion. Even TDK feels more conclusive than Spider-Man 3.
Sure. There was no resolution. But it's also not about how they ended it by not killing Peter or whatever..it's the fact that they literally wrote the 4th movie and would have kept going.

I personally have a hard time even calling Star Wars a trilogy now that there's going to be sequels to Return Of The Jedi with Han Solo and Luke being brought back. The Hobbit movies are prequels but they could be looked at as spin-offs like if Blake had a spin-off movie post-Rises. Or even a prequel for Selina. But it's why i see TDK Trilogy as a true trilogy like the Godfather trilogy instead of the others. Of course we may see Bale/Nolan return in a decade or two to do some Batman Beyond kind of thing, and that would still make the trilogy a "trilogy" but more in the vein of LOTR/SW. But i dont think it will happen. It could have with this Snyderverse but it never came to fruition.

Nolan is a hard head. He almost turned down Rises even though he could have had Dicaprio as the Riddler. Even Zimmer was excited about scoring Riddler. Caine and Freeman expressed the same thing. But Nolan still said no until he had the story that excited him. So i dont think he's returning ever, which means TDK-T will always be a real & true trilogy of movies. Which is hard to find.


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Old 01-29-2014, 03:05 PM   #40
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Well that's where it seems we're at now when it comes to TDKR. What else is there beyond, "well I don't agree"? It's the same tired discussions we've had over and over again, the next logical step is just blatantly telling the other person that "their feelings are wrong, here's why". That's what majority and minority discussions will do because the crux of the argument is always going to be that what the majority feels is the right line of thinking and that everything else doesn't matter. It doesn't have to be said out right to get that point. Why else would anyone bother to bring it up? I don't think C. Lee would ban you for that either, even if he doesn't agree with your opinion on the matter. I think you overreacted a bit there.
Nah, trust me. If I walked into any Marvel thread and started pounding my chest saying, "You guys only like Marvel films because you're cool with mediocrity!", I wouldn't last too long. C. Lee in particular hates that sort of thing. But he might sympathize with you because he hates TDKR too.

I appreciate your brutal honesty, and I do know what you mean...but if you were to keep making posts like that it might eventually get you banned. That's no veiled threat, I wouldn't blow the whistle on you ("What would I do without you? You.. complete...me") but I can't speak for everyone. Once you start essentially labeling fans of a movie as having "lesser" taste, it can quickly become a very slippery slope. That's just how the forum is moderated. Just because sometimes I get so fed up with the same ol' arguments that I want to start peppering in some profanity into my posts for flare doesn't mean I'd be able to get away with it just because "it's the next logical step". Rules are rules, and if we wanted to debate with the gloves entirely off we'd have to choose another forum.

Besides, just because I disagree with you and think you're wrong about TDKR doesn't mean I think you have poor taste in general or anything of the sort. We've all even commented on the fact that we have fairly similar taste in general outside of this movie.

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Old 01-29-2014, 03:07 PM   #41
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Exactly.

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Old 01-29-2014, 03:34 PM   #42
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Besides, just because I disagree with you and think you're wrong about TDKR doesn't mean I think you have poor taste in general or anything of the sort. We've all even commented on the fact that we have fairly similar taste in general outside of this movie.
You know I get that, we've discussed it before (like you said). I don't think you're a lesser person or that your opinion has less merit than mine.

I probably could have worded that better (no, I know I could have worded it better), but you know what I mean. There's just no two ways about it, where else does a discussion like this go? That's the next logical place. There's got to be times where you see my name (or Shika, or Joker, or Travesty, etc.) in the thread and think, "maaaaan, not again". I'm at the point now where I know where everyone is at on their stance with TDKR. I guess now I'm trying to figure out why any one of our opinions matter at all. As long as it's done respectfully, I don't see why it would be looked down upon to just stop beating around the bush and state, "that milost is WRONG, I'm sick of his ugly TDKR hate and his lack of taste!". I certainly wouldn't be offended and it would atleast make these TDKR debates fun and interesting.

I can't even begin to express how hard it is to not use smilies on here. Ever since my style of posting had been accused (notably, my use of "antagonistic smilies", which I guess angered people that I was belittling them), finding ways of inject humor or personality is a bit tough. I guess I could use gifs, but the use of type seems much more appealing to me, even if it would be at the expense of being called a "troll".

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Old 01-29-2014, 03:43 PM   #43
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I don't usually like to concern myself with questions like these. It is a complete shot in the dark. You never know what the future holds and there are way too many factors to take into account. That goes for both movies I like and movies I don't like.

I can't comment on TDKR's future. However, I do think to a certain degree (and like I said, there is no way of knowing this for sure until time tells) that TDKR will hurt BB & TDK in the eyes of future generations. Ironically, I have this belief due to, as Shauner stated, the trilogy being seen as a "whole" in the future. I think the whole "epic conclusion to this epic three-act trilogy that was always meant to be a three-act trilogy" thing will bleed into BB and TDK in the future and affect the way newcomers will look at these films.

For example, let's take the ending. TDK's ending blew everyone away back when the film came out. No one was expecting him to quit/get depressed/lose hope/whatever way you want to interpret it after that. People walked out of theatres saying things like "Wow, that ending is amazing and it just shows how much Batman is willing to keep going" and "Wow, it was so impressive how Batman took his grief over Rachel and transformed it into something positive". Future generations will say different things due to having foresight. They'll see the ending and might think "So Batman survives this night, disappears, and then quits that same night/after his energy project" (depending on whatever you believe). They might see Rachel's death and think "Oh, so this is part of why he is so depressed and out-of-the-game at the start of TDKR". Cool little easter eggs like "You and I will do this forever" will have nowhere near the same impact. "I don't think there will come a time when you no longer need Batman" won't have the same impact. The list goes on.

Either that or the trilogy as a whole will become the most conspiracy-theorized film franchise since Star Wars. In a way, that is already happening. There are tons of theories flowing out there over what Lucas originally planned, what he didn't plan, whether or not the prequel trilogy was always a go, whether or not they were going to be different and Lucas just sold out, etc. Everyone has their own little theory of the history behind Star Wars. The old-school fans in particular often make statements such as "You don't know but I do because I was there when Star Wars came out and kept up with news, etc.". I can see the Nolan franchise becoming just that, with the milost's/Joker's/Shikamaru's of today saying the same thing to the younger generations - "You don't know, I know because I was there, Goyer originally said x, Nolan said y, Bale said this about Robin" . In that sense, I guess this trilogy has a lot more in common with the OT than all of us thought.

Me personally, I am really happy to have seen these films in a time where I wouldn't have foresight or have to be bombarded by so many theories. I think everyone should appreciate that, regardless of what their opinion on TDKR is (and by extension, of the whole franchise).
You're putting a lot of faith in that all film goers, particularly those who cherish older films from more than the last five years (which is not as large an overlap with comic book fans as you might think) will have spent years analyzing, deconstructing, and dreaming about TDK ending and then be hit with the same level of disappointment that TDKR wasn't the movie they had in their head.


....Chances are they'll just put the next one on a day later at most. I grew up with Return of the Jedi, and I didn't realize for years how much the fan community hated how it "squandered" the ending of ESB. Indeed, while Jedi is the weakest of that trilogy, most people now consider that trilogy as a "whole" and great.

I think a Jedi effect is very much in line. That also applies for Begins, which many in the general audience, and myself as well, consider the weakest of the three.

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Old 01-29-2014, 03:51 PM   #44
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Milost, I think your posts are hilarious. You make a lot of great points (IMO), but they also crack me up in the way they're worded and styled.

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Nolan is a hard head. He almost turned down Rises even though he could have had Dicaprio as the Riddler. Even Zimmer was excited about scoring Riddler. Caine and Freeman expressed the same thing. But Nolan still said no until he had the story that excited him. So i dont think he's returning ever, which means TDK-T will always be a real & true trilogy of movies. Which is hard to find.
That was a debunked rumor. Dicaprio was never anywhere near the Riddler, which is kind of a shame since he would have done a fantastic job.

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Old 01-29-2014, 04:02 PM   #45
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You're putting a lot of faith in that all film goers, particularly those who cherish older films from more than the last five years (which is not as large an overlap with comic book fans as you might think) will have spent years analyzing, deconstructing, and dreaming about TDK ending and then be hit with the same level of disappointment that TDKR wasn't the movie they had in their head.


....Chances are they'll just put the next one on a day later at most. I grew up with Return of the Jedi, and I didn't realize for years how much the fan community hated how it "squandered" the ending of ESB. Indeed, while Jedi is the weakest of that trilogy, most people now consider that trilogy as a "whole" and great.

I think a Jedi effect is very much in line. That also applies for Begins, which many in the general audience, and myself as well, consider the weakest of the three.
The Jedi effect is exactly what I'm talking about. That is where all the "conspiracy theories" within the fanbase started.

Plus, let's be honest. How much of a part did the quality of the prequels play into the whole trilogy now being considered "whole and great"? Me personally, I always liked ROTJ (though I do agree it is the weakest of the three) but the same can't be said for everyone else that hated it until the prequels came out.

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Old 01-29-2014, 04:03 PM   #46
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I dont believe the debunked stuff. Im pretty sure Goyer was the one in the interview who said it then Nolan shot it down. I dont believe Nolan when he does that lol.

Ill say this though, after watching Dicaprio play a dude in Wolf Of Wall Street who is so arrogant and obsessed, it would have been absolutely insane if he went up against Bale in a Nolan batman movie as the Riddler.

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Old 01-29-2014, 04:07 PM   #47
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You know I get that, we've discussed it before (like you said). I don't think you're a lesser person or that your opinion has less merit than mine.

I probably could have worded that better (no, I know I could have worded it better), but you know what I mean. There's just no two ways about it, where else does a discussion like this go? That's the next logical place. There's got to be times where you see my name (or Shika, or Joker, or Travesty, etc.) in the thread and think, "maaaaan, not again". I'm at the point now where I know where everyone is at on their stance with TDKR. I guess now I'm trying to figure out why any one of our opinions matter at all. As long as it's done respectfully, I don't see why it would be looked down upon to just stop beating around the bush and state, "that milost is WRONG, I'm sick of his ugly TDKR hate and his lack of taste!". I certainly wouldn't be offended and it would atleast make these TDKR debates fun and interesting.

I can't even begin to express how hard it is to not use smilies on here. Ever since my style of posting had been accused (notably, my use of "antagonistic smilies", which I guess angered people that I was belittling them), finding ways of inject humor or personality is a bit tough. I guess I could use gifs, but the use of type seems much more appealing to me, even if it would be at the expense of being called a "troll".
Haha, milost again I do admire your no-nonsense, no-frills approach...my post was more addressed to you as someone who's just trying to make you aware of how things might be perceived rather than as your debate opponent. It's more just my reaction to you taking things to a place I wasn't super comfortable going...particularly because the minute I start acting more aggressive I start feeding into the "Nolanite" stereotypes and become the next Anno in the eyes of the mods.

I appreciate you for being willing to take it as much as you're dishing it out, but I think if the debate has truly hit a wall maybe it's time to finally give debating a rest. I'll say this much...I certainly hope to phase hardcore TDKR debating out of my life at some point in 2014.

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Old 01-29-2014, 04:10 PM   #48
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Default Re: Do you see TDKR's reputation growing in future years?

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I dont believe the debunked stuff. Im pretty sure Goyer was the one in the interview who said it then Nolan shot it down. I dont believe Nolan when he does that lol.

Ill say this though, after watching Dicaprio play a dude in Wolf Of Wall Street who is so arrogant and obsessed, it would have been absolutely insane if he went up against Bale in a Nolan batman movie as the Riddler.
I don't believe that. I never found any solid evidence that that was the case nor have I heard Goyer say such thing. WB pretty much let Nolan and Co. do what they want. They had full faith in him after TDK. They even waited 2 whole years (almost 3 if you start the count on TDK's last production date) for Nolan to come back after he found a good story. It is more than likely it is false.

However, that would have been a brilliant casting choice. I'm going to go this far: it would have been just as good as Ledger's Joker or superior. I remember being disappointed when I found out it was just a rumor. Dicaprio is a fantastic actor. He seriously needs to play a comic book supervillain at one point.

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Old 01-29-2014, 04:16 PM   #49
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Oh for sure. It would have been HUGE! But i understand Nolan not wanting to repeat certain things he did with Joker or that kind of crime film. But with Dicaprio. My God! I think he could play Riddler going up against Affleck but im not sure if it will have the same effect as him going up against an actor like Bale in another Nolan movie after doing Inception.

Ill look into the quote though.

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Old 01-29-2014, 04:20 PM   #50
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Default Re: Do you see TDKR's reputation growing in future years?

David Goyer said that at the premiere of The Dark Knight, Warner Bros. executives were already talking about a villain for The Dark Knight Rises — “it’s gonna be The Riddler, and we want it to be Leonardo DiCaprio…”.

Hmm, it was reported by Batman-News that it was in empire mag i think.

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