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Old 01-29-2014, 04:22 PM   #51
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Yeah, the Goyer quote is real.

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David Goyer said that at the premiere of The Dark Knight, Warner Bros. executives were already talking about a villain for The Dark Knight Rises — “it’s gonna be The Riddler, and we want it to be Leonardo DiCaprio…”.
Source- http://batman-news.com/2012/05/31/da...photos-empire/

And I remember reading that in the actual Empire article.

Edit: Jinx shauner.

Mind you though, this was at the premiere of TDK, before it became a huge phenomenon, before Nolan had THAT level of power. Besides, whichever execs said that were probably just making the same assumption everyone else was making about who the next villain would be and getting caught up in the hype of it all.

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Old 01-29-2014, 04:26 PM   #52
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Cool, i just dont believe Nolan at all when he said it wasn't true. Because he would totally say that so it doesn't take the focus off the movie."Well, they had a chance to do the riddler with leo and nolan said no!" would become the new topic for the press/headlines, etc. Questions to Chris and Leo about what could have been instead of focusing on Bane and what they're actually doing.

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Old 01-29-2014, 04:27 PM   #53
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@BLR & Shauner111 Well I guess I was wrong then. There I go again trusting Nolan's words. But to be fair, what I did hear Nolan say was that the studio never forced him to use the Riddler, which is a different topic. But yes, it is overall a misconception on my part.

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I appreciate you for being willing to take it as much as you're dishing it out, but I think if the debate has truly hit a wall maybe it's time to finally give debating a rest. I'll say this much...I certainly hope to phase hardcore TDKR debating out of my life at some point in 2014.
I also want phase it out at one point. To be honest, the debate still goes on for me because there are no other current film issues to discuss. 2013 was a "meh" year for me in terms of comic book movies. I'm not a huge Iron Man/Wolverine/Thor/Superman guy so ongoing debates on those characters is not something that interests me too much. I did spend some time in the IM3 threads last summer discussing the whole Mandarin thing, but it got too redundant after a while due to it essentially all going back to marketing...no complexity to such discussion whatsoever, something that I think is really present in all TDKR discussions. With TDKR, there is lots of things to talk about. That's why we are still discussing it after all these months.

I'm waiting for the comic book movie that offers the same level of layers and complex discussions/debates as TDKR and features a character I care about. I'm as much of a Spider-Man guy as I am a Batman guy, so I hope this year does that for me. I also hope the Captain America film offers that - I'm not a big Cap guy but I love the themes that film will be exploring (it is a theme that I reflect on almost daily).

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Old 01-29-2014, 04:29 PM   #54
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I also want phase it out at one point. To be honest, the debate still goes on for me because there are no other current film issues to discuss. 2013 was a "meh" year for me in terms of comic book movies. I'm not a huge Iron Man/Wolverine/Thor/Superman guy so ongoing debates on those characters is not something that interests me too much. I did spend some time in the IM3 threads last summer discussing the whole Mandarin thing, but it got too redundant after a while due to it essentially all going back to marketing...no complexity to such discussion whatsoever, something that I think is really present in all TDKR discussions. With TDKR, there is lots of things to talk about. That's why we are still discussing it after all these months.

I'm waiting for the comic book movie that offers the same level of layers and complex discussions/debates as TDKR and features a character I care about. I'm as much of a Spider-Man guy as I am a Batman guy, so I hope this year does that for me. I also hope the Captain America film offers that - I'm not a big Cap guy but I love the themes that film will be exploring (it is a theme that I reflect on almost daily).
I'm on the same page as you there. 2013 was a meh year for me too (as far as summer blockbusters go, great otherwise) so 2012 still feels the most potent for discussion.

I'm very excited for ASM2 and Cap. Cap in particular seems like it could really be the surprise success of the year.

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Old 01-29-2014, 04:37 PM   #55
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I'm on the same page as you there. 2013 was a meh year for me too (as far as summer blockbusters go, great otherwise) so 2012 still feels the most potent for discussion.

I'm very excited for ASM2 and Cap. Cap in particular seems like it could really be the surprise success of the year.
Not to go too off-topic, but I'm very excited for Cap because it seems to deal with a theme I have been reflecting on a lot recently: the anti-authority nature of superheroes. It's something I've been thinking about a lot lately but not something I discussed with anyone (at least not in great detail). So I'm excited for that.

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Old 01-29-2014, 04:37 PM   #56
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Man, now i wanna see that Riddler movie with Leo set between TDK and TDKR Let's start a petition Shikamaru since you don't care about the Batfleck stuff.

But yeah i agree that 2013 was a let down for blockbusters. But 2013 made up for it with a massive amount of great films that had nothing to do with being a "blockbuster".

Im dreading the new Spider-Man. I want it to be awesome but everything i see makes me think it's going to be the worst thing of the year. Cap on the other hand, who im not a fan of, looks pretty damn good for a change. Some spotty CG at the end of that trailer but maybe they'll fix that.

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Old 01-29-2014, 04:45 PM   #57
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The Jedi effect is exactly what I'm talking about. That is where all the "conspiracy theories" within the fanbase started.

Plus, let's be honest. How much of a part did the quality of the prequels play into the whole trilogy now being considered "whole and great"? Me personally, I always liked ROTJ (though I do agree it is the weakest of the three) but the same can't be said for everyone else that hated it until the prequels came out.
The prequels have helped Jedi some. Just as I'm sure when WB makes another bad Batman movie (it really is inevitable--reads about how BvS also has Wonder Woman and was delayed a year, but still begins shooting this spring without a script--maybe sooner than we realize), the Nolan films will be helped.

I think there are three things to consider: how the general audience carries these films on, how critics and cinephiles do, and how fans do.

The first is rather apathetic about pretty much any movie a year after its released. However, I do think that of all the superhero movies to be passed down to the next generation from the last decade surplus, TDKT and probably The Avengers are it. And just as kids grew up on ROTJ and loved it, so too will they with TDKR and BB for that matter.

The film history value of these movies I think will be immense, because none other better reflect the era they were made in that saw superhero movies multiply like bunnies: the fear of terrorism, 9/11, the fear of American decline and economic inequality. There is also the factor that Nolan is quickly being considered one of the best populist filmmakers of this generation. That will also help elevate TDKT over its plethora of competition.

Then the fans. Yes, the fans will dissect TDKR to death. While I honestly feel like BB is the weaker film, TDKR is the least faithful to the comics and takes the most radical departures. It will be the ones fans will always argue over.

But like Return of the Jedi or The Temple of Doom, the general audience and film historians will all lump them together as "great," even if Rises is recognized as the weakest of the three. You can also find fans who dislike The Godfather Part II or Return of the King if you look hard enough.

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Old 01-29-2014, 04:46 PM   #58
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Yeah, not to overstate of overhype things but the political thriller/philosophical nature to The Winter Soldier makes me wonder if this could be Marvel's answer to The Dark Knight. I think that's obviously a best case scenario, but at the very least I'm still hoping for something with significantly more weight and drama to it than the first Cap film...which I felt was pretty paint-by-numbers.

I stopped following Spidey too closely because I figure I just want to go in and be surprised. I'm excited to see a new Spider-Man movie that's not an origin, so hopefully they maximize the potential there.

And just as a PS...I feel like we've spent SO much time ON topic that we're allowed to veer off topic once in a while. I kinda feel safe to post opinions in here...opinions I wouldn't dare post in the BvS boards for instance...

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Old 01-29-2014, 05:06 PM   #59
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It's not a true trilogy because it makes it seem like Spider-Man goes on to face other people in more sequels. They literally wrote the 4th movie, cast the actors and then it was canceled. A trilogy shouldn't just be about 3 films, it's about how the story progresses.
It's not a true trilogy because, frankly speaking, the third movie is crap, despite some of its bright spots. Of course, haters will try and make you believe that TDKR is as much a blight on Nolan's trilogy as SM3 was on Raimi's. Which is nonsense of course, but I was just reminded of how much some haters were grasping at straws right after TDKR came out, comparing it to the aforementioned SM3 and even Batman and Robin.

With regards to the question posed by the topic, I think that TDKR and by extension the whole trilogy will indeed stand the test of time. If for nothing else than the fact it was the first cohesive superhero trilogy and the fact that it had a definitive beginning and end.

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Old 01-29-2014, 07:07 PM   #60
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Man, now i wanna see that Riddler movie with Leo set between TDK and TDKR Let's start a petition Shikamaru since you don't care about the Batfleck stuff.
I'm down .

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But yeah i agree that 2013 was a let down for blockbusters. But 2013 made up for it with a massive amount of great films that had nothing to do with being a "blockbuster".

Im dreading the new Spider-Man. I want it to be awesome but everything i see makes me think it's going to be the worst thing of the year. Cap on the other hand, who im not a fan of, looks pretty damn good for a change. Some spotty CG at the end of that trailer but maybe they'll fix that.
TASM 2 looks great, in my opinion. Webb said this will be the biggest Spider-Man film yet and I think it shows. I'm looking forward to it the most.

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The prequels have helped Jedi some. Just as I'm sure when WB makes another bad Batman movie (it really is inevitable--reads about how BvS also has Wonder Woman and was delayed a year, but still begins shooting this spring without a script--maybe sooner than we realize), the Nolan films will be helped.
I'm kinda expecting that at this rate. I think we are bound to get some "This makes TDKR look like a masterpiece" posts after BvS, assuming nothing changes by then. I usually try my best to look at films in the context of the time they came out in, so I don't know how much of a change of heart I'll have. However, it wouldn't surprise me if a lot of other people do.

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I think there are three things to consider: how the general audience carries these films on, how critics and cinephiles do, and how fans do.
Of course. I think all film audiences can be broken down into those three groups.

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The first is rather apathetic about pretty much any movie a year after its released. However, I do think that of all the superhero movies to be passed down to the next generation from the last decade surplus, TDKT and probably The Avengers are it. And just as kids grew up on ROTJ and loved it, so too will they with TDKR and BB for that matter.

The film history value of these movies I think will be immense, because none other better reflect the era they were made in that saw superhero movies multiply like bunnies: the fear of terrorism, 9/11, the fear of American decline and economic inequality. There is also the factor that Nolan is quickly being considered one of the best populist filmmakers of this generation. That will also help elevate TDKT over its plethora of competition.

Then the fans. Yes, the fans will dissect TDKR to death. While I honestly feel like BB is the weaker film, TDKR is the least faithful to the comics and takes the most radical departures. It will be the ones fans will always argue over.

But like Return of the Jedi or The Temple of Doom, the general audience and film historians will all lump them together as "great," even if Rises is recognized as the weakest of the three. You can also find fans who dislike The Godfather Part II or Return of the King if you look hard enough.
To be fair, I don't think ROTJ was ever hated by the general audience. I think that mostly came from the fans and, to a lesser amount, the critics/cinephiles.

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Yeah, not to overstate of overhype things but the political thriller/philosophical nature to The Winter Soldier makes me wonder if this could be Marvel's answer to The Dark Knight. I think that's obviously a best case scenario, but at the very least I'm still hoping for something with significantly more weight and drama to it than the first Cap film...which I felt was pretty paint-by-numbers.

I stopped following Spidey too closely because I figure I just want to go in and be surprised. I'm excited to see a new Spider-Man movie that's not an origin, so hopefully they maximize the potential there.

And just as a PS...I feel like we've spent SO much time ON topic that we're allowed to veer off topic once in a while. I kinda feel safe to post opinions in here...opinions I wouldn't dare post in the BvS boards for instance...
I thought the first Cap film was disappointing as well. It was ok, but not much to it overall. The biggest problem I had was how watered down it was. They threw out all the racist and fascist themes behind the Red Skull out in favor of a more kid-friendly tone. He felt like a Saturday morning cartoon villain to me as opposed to his more horrifying "I love to hate this guy" characterization. It doesn't seem like the second film will have that problem, which is good. Overall I'm more excited for Spidey (I'm keeping up with it and it looks great), but Cap is a close second.

And yes, I guess it's good to go off topic in this case .

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It's not a true trilogy because, frankly speaking, the third movie is crap, despite some of its bright spots.
Does not compute.

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Old 01-29-2014, 08:07 PM   #61
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Are people really comparing "TDKT" (that looks so stupid) to the Original Trilogy?

Man, that's some revisionist history. Are we really going to say that this,














Is freaking this?









And that subsequent films are comparable? If that's the case. I guess we can compare anything.

"The youth watching TDKT will see them as one, yadda, yadda, yadda", what kids are watching "TDKT" exactly? Is this a joke that I missed? Please tell me this is in jest? I love Batman as much as the next guy, especially The Dark Knight, but really? I know some of you are looking for that one film that defined your childhood or, I guess "young adulthood", but maaaan, this is a complete stretch. Don't some of you feel odd making those kind of statements?

The closest thing to the Star Wars phenomenon was Batman in 1989, which was huge. But not even it was as HUGE as Star Wars or those late 70s, early 80s. Hot damn.




EDIT:


And if it's just in terms of "Trilogies", I still think it's a crazy comparison. RAH, RAH, Almighty TDKT, TDKT I guess. I love how Batman Begins is so stand out from this concept of "Trilogy" when you consider it doesn't even have "Dark Knight" anywhere in it. It tickles me. There's only one Dark Knight film, and it does not share power.


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Old 01-29-2014, 08:13 PM   #62
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Nothing will compare to the original Star Wars trilogy. The TDK trilogy isn't as culturally significant now as the original Star Wars trilogy is... and that was nearly 40 years ago.

But anyway, Rise is a decent film with a decent reception and it made great money. It's reputation now is where it belongs and will remain.

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Old 01-29-2014, 08:19 PM   #63
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Im not personally talking about TDK trilogy being something that "kids" will watch because SW still had the young kids in mind, but Nolan didn't really. And im not comparing it to how big it was as a pop culture thing like Batman 89 was. Because it's a different thing all together. But for me, i didn't grow up with any of the Star Wars movies. Growing up as a little kid i saw whatever my parents or older siblings showed me. And they weren't into SW, so i only saw Empire towards the end of high school. I saw Batman Begins when i was 16. I'm 25 now. So TDK trilogy is my trilogy.

These movies are more for teenagers to discover in future generations. Or anything after that.

We're also comparing the trilogy to the reactions they both got, critically as stories/movies. Not by the marketing or the craziness of how they packed theaters back in the day. Even though i will say that TDK had some crazy stuff going down in 2008. It was massive.

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Old 01-29-2014, 08:20 PM   #64
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Objectively speaking, NOTHING has been as much of a cultural phenomenon as Star Wars since Star Wars.

That said...I wasn't born when the original trilogy came out. I was 3 when Batman 89 came out.

Since then, I've been around for The Matrix Trilogy, LOTR trilogy, Star Wars prequels, Harry Potter, Avatar, all the rest. And quite simply, none of those films felt as massive to me as TDK and TDKR did. Just the energy waiting on line to see the midnight showings. Hell, the energy waiting on line to see a 5 MINUTE PROLOGUE. It was on another level from anything I've ever experienced. There's no two ways about that, I lived it and I'm not going to pretend it wasn't huge and didn't matter a lot to a lot of people. I saw people shaking, going crazy, chanting in the theater waiting for it to start. I got interviewed by the NY Daily News waiting in line for TDK, asking for me to explain what the hype was all about. I made friends with people I met standing in line for these movies, literally. People I keep in touch with to this day. I cannot say that for any other movie.

It doesn't matter to me that it's not as big as Star Wars. I love Star Wars and consider myself a Star Wars historian despite being born after the Original Trilogy. But in my personal frame of reference, TDKT (RAH RAH) was that big seminal cinematic event...or rather, it gradually became that, starting during interim between BB and TDK. I still can't believe that I have to justify why I regard it as such, but there we are.

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Old 01-29-2014, 08:23 PM   #65
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I'd say that's a lot to do with Batman fans in general being a passionate group to begin with. Even more so than "Trekkies" perhaps.

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Old 01-29-2014, 08:27 PM   #66
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Objectively speaking, NOTHING has been as much of a cultural phenomenon as Star Wars since Star Wars.

That said...I wasn't born when the original trilogy came out. I was 3 when Batman 89 came out.

Since then, I've been around for The Matrix Trilogy, LOTR trilogy, Star Wars prequels, Harry Potter, Avatar, all the rest. And quite simply, none of those films felt as massive to me as TDK and TDKR did. Just the energy waiting on line to see the midnight showings. Hell, the energy waiting on line to see a 5 MINUTE PROLOGUE. It was on another level from anything I've ever experienced. There's no two ways about that, I lived it and I'm not going to pretend it wasn't huge and didn't matter a lot to a lot of people. I saw people shaking, going crazy, chanting in the theater waiting for it to start. I got interviewed by the NY Daily News waiting in line for TDK, asking for me to explain what the hype was all about. I made friends with people I met standing in line for these movies, literally. People I keep in touch with to this day. I cannot say that for any other movie.

It doesn't matter to me that it's not as big as Star Wars. I love Star Wars and consider myself a Star Wars historian despite being born after the Original Trilogy. But in my personal frame of reference, TDKT (RAH RAH) was that big seminal cinematic event...or rather, it gradually became that, starting during interim between BB and TDK. I still can't believe that I have to justify why I regard it as such, but there we are.
Right. SW will always be the biggest. And i was almost a full whopping 1 year old when Batman 89 came out lol. My buddy met his current girlfriend at the midnight premier for TDK in 2008, which i was at of course. So yeah Lobster, ive experienced the lines, the anticipation. I remember the news coming and filming us. Asking questions to me and a few of my buddies about the movie while we wait in a long ass line outside of the cinema. The energy for the midnight premiers in 2008 and 2012 will never be duplicated for me in my lifetime.

It's MY Star Wars.

I only saw Revenge of the Sith in theaters. Not the premier though. I saw it a week later. Im hoping to get into Episode 7 for the premier since i appreciate the original SW trilogy as an adult. But that feeling isn't there because ive been a Batman fan since i was 3 and the trilogy were the only Bat movies ive ever seen at the cinema. I used to buy/rent the old ones. So this trilogy matters to me in a huge way. I grew up with these movies. I also treat a new Nolan movie like an event. Like i do for Tarantino. So that just adds to why i love this trilogy more than any other.


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Old 01-29-2014, 08:30 PM   #67
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Yeah, absolutely. That just added to it. Let's face it, most of the big event movies these days are based on existing properties with built-in fanbases. Nolan's movies just fed this hunger for many passionate Batman fans out there who were eager to see a darker, grittier take. And then that spread to the mainstream and made Bat-fans out of a lot of other folks.

A nice side effect of this trilogy for me is that now a few of my friends who never cared about Batman previously now 'get it' and are happy to spend hours talking about Batman with me.

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Old 01-29-2014, 08:41 PM   #68
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Man, all this Star Wars talk is getting me hyped up for Episode 7 4.

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Old 01-29-2014, 08:43 PM   #69
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Man, all this Star Wars talk is getting my hyped up Episode 7.
I might tear up seeing Luke, Han and Leia on the big screen again. I keep wondering how they're going to look.

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Old 01-29-2014, 09:08 PM   #70
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I definitely think the new Star Wars trilogy can be the next huge cultural phenomenon if they execute it right. James Cameron talked a lot about Avatar being the new Star Wars, but I pretty much everyone I know groans at the thought of Avatar 2, 3 and 4 but is very curious and excited about Episode VII.

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Old 01-29-2014, 10:36 PM   #71
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I'm kinda expecting that at this rate. I think we are bound to get some "This makes TDKR look like a masterpiece" posts after BvS, assuming nothing changes by then. I usually try my best to look at films in the context of the time they came out in, so I don't know how much of a change of heart I'll have. However, it wouldn't surprise me if a lot of other people do.
I too try to stay open-minded. But every single news item since July I've treated as "Really?" and "I don't know..." I try to stay optimistic, but this thing looks like a runaway train.


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To be fair, I don't think ROTJ was ever hated by the general audience. I think that mostly came from the fans and, to a lesser amount, the critics/cinephiles.
EXACTLY! Just like The Dark Knight Rises, save it had much higher praise from critics and film enthusiasts than Jedi ever did. I think we agree that Rises will be the "Jedi" or "Temple of Doom" of the trilogy. We just disagree on whether that is a good or bad thing.

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I thought the first Cap film was disappointing as well. It was ok, but not much to it overall. The biggest problem I had was how watered down it was. They threw out all the racist and fascist themes behind the Red Skull out in favor of a more kid-friendly tone. He felt like a Saturday morning cartoon villain to me as opposed to his more horrifying "I love to hate this guy" characterization. It doesn't seem like the second film will have that problem, which is good. Overall I'm more excited for Spidey (I'm keeping up with it and it looks great), but Cap is a close second.

And yes, I guess it's good to go off topic in this case .
I am surprisingly optimistic about Winter Soldier. Cap's never been a favorite superhero of mine, and the first film was pretty awful (though that's mostly the fault of the studio for throwing away a decent origin story halfway through the movie to turn it into an Avengers commercial). But everything about the tone and approach of Cap 2 looks promising, as does Marvel's vote of confidence by bringing the Russo brothers back.

TASM2 though is one I just can't get excited for. I hated TASM that much. However, if it is good, then I will be happily surprised and ready to laud it like everyone else will.

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Old 01-29-2014, 10:40 PM   #72
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Default Re: Do you see TDKR's reputation growing in future years?

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Are people really comparing "TDKT" (that looks so stupid) to the Original Trilogy?

Man, that's some revisionist history. Are we really going to say that this,














Is freaking this?









And that subsequent films are comparable? If that's the case. I guess we can compare anything.

"The youth watching TDKT will see them as one, yadda, yadda, yadda", what kids are watching "TDKT" exactly? Is this a joke that I missed? Please tell me this is in jest? I love Batman as much as the next guy, especially The Dark Knight, but really? I know some of you are looking for that one film that defined your childhood or, I guess "young adulthood", but maaaan, this is a complete stretch. Don't some of you feel odd making those kind of statements?

The closest thing to the Star Wars phenomenon was Batman in 1989, which was huge. But not even it was as HUGE as Star Wars or those late 70s, early 80s. Hot damn.




EDIT:


And if it's just in terms of "Trilogies", I still think it's a crazy comparison. RAH, RAH, Almighty TDKT, TDKT I guess. I love how Batman Begins is so stand out from this concept of "Trilogy" when you consider it doesn't even have "Dark Knight" anywhere in it. It tickles me. There's only one Dark Knight film, and it does not share power.
It is more using it as a general basis in how the "weak one" is regarded as to the whole.

Don't worry friend, we're not saying it's as popular as SW, you can rest easy.

With that said Jurassic Park and probably LOTR were the closest we ever came to another SW event, but as SW did it first, it will always be the most unique.

However of the superhero genre? Yes, the Nolan films will stand shoulders above everything else as the ones people remember and rewatch. And given the state of blockbusters for the last 15 years or so, that's pretty good. Great when you think about it.

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Old 01-30-2014, 01:57 AM   #73
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Default Re: Do you see TDKR's reputation growing in future years?

Did the film not get like a 88% Audience Rating on RT?

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Old 01-30-2014, 02:19 AM   #74
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Default Re: Do you see TDKR's reputation growing in future years?

How did the end of Captain America turn into an Avengers commercial? If you're talking about the end where he wakes up in modern times I thought that was really well done, especially the last line by Steve.

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Old 01-30-2014, 08:57 AM   #75
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Default Re: Do you see TDKR's reputation growing in future years?

I dont think it was like an Avengers commercial, but i did think it was an awful piece of ****.

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Did the film not get like a 88% Audience Rating on RT?
Yup.

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