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Old 01-23-2014, 07:02 AM   #26
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I think it's because neither the source material or cartoons attempt to portray the world as an almost tangible version of our world, and as such it should have massive worldwide effects- politically, economically, militarily.

In fact, even in the comic book universe, the only time we see areas of cities levelled was Coast City and Bludhaven. Both of which were used as frameworks for much larger stories.

But Man of Steel shows Metropolis rebuilt and the same as ever. I think it's more a problem of internal consistency.
The films shows the Daily Planet the same as ever...not the entirety of Metropolis. But, I know what you're getting at.

 
Old 01-23-2014, 07:02 AM   #27
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How do we know that he'll kill the bad guy from here on out? Just because the "precedent" has been set does not mean that it will continue.

If we're doing the "it's not real, it's a movie" bit, couldn't I argue that the filmmakers will build up the sequel to a point where he doesn't kill if the situation arises again?

Again, you can make the argument both ways with the "it's a movie, it's not real" argument.
Again, saying that the filmmakers will fix/rectify/further explain any major plot points or character arcs in the sequel means the film failed on its own merits.

How is that the precedent? Because that's what happened in the only story that was told so far. That's it. There is no sequel to compare it to. Anything else is conjecture. What was presented was that the character will/can kill at the liberty of the writers. Every movie is a self contained story unless it's left with a cliffhanger. In this story, the precedent is that the character is written to kill the bad guy at the end of the story. Same can be said about Iron Man in IM1 and Captain America in TFA. Don't let Superman fan goggles cloud your vision.

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Old 01-23-2014, 07:03 AM   #28
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On the contrary, I actually found Cavil's Clark/Superman to be engaging to watch.

He may not be nearly as chatty like Tony Stark or Peter Parker are, but he has a way of having people emphasize with his character imho.

I'm glad that he's not like Christopher Reeve's Superman. I don't want a carbon copy of the character, especially one that was portrayed as seemingly perfect (even though he was actually flawed).

Here Clark is portrayed as Flawed, but yet he has the qualities where you can see him becoming the hero that people are familiar with today.

I felt like his actions spoke louder than his words.
As a Superman fan, I can appreciate a stoic Superman, really.
But as a personal preference it would have been nice to see him talk more. The latter will have the audience getting to know him better as well. Yes actions speak louder than words, but we want them to perceive him as a real person and not just the hero the movie makes him out to be.
I most certainly would not like a Chris Reeve copy, but certain elements of that version delivered in a more subdued manner would have been nice, to me anyway.
And also, I would HATE it if he were as chatty as Stark and Parker, dude, those guys overdo it completely.

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Old 01-23-2014, 07:04 AM   #29
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I love Man of Steel with a passion but I wasn't a fan of Superman killing Zod and the cut scene cut scene ending. Martha and Clark in the graveyard leading into Daily Planet scene I was fine with. The scene with General Swanwick before was so off. What happened to Metropolis and all the people that died? Wrap that up first don't save it for the next movie. Make the whole story cohesive.

I would've done this for the final climax:

Col. Hardy has still flown the C-17 into Black Zero. Everything is sucked into the Phantom Zone, Superman saves Lois but can't escape the pull and is sucked inside. The Zone is a barren planet where Superman and Hardy battle Zod and Faora and just make it out before the portal closes leaving Zod and his forces trapped forever.

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Old 01-23-2014, 07:04 AM   #30
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From what I've seen, most critics didn't have a problem with Superman's actions or that it wasn't like the Donner movies.

The most common main complaint seemed to be that they found the third act to be exhausting and not very emotionally satisfying. That much action isn't for everyone, especially if you're not that interested in the story, and thus the complaints that the movie could have used more humour, like SMTM, which is always a surefire way to keep people's attention when they're not 100% invested in the story. For others, the third act is bliss.


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Old 01-23-2014, 07:04 AM   #31
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So Superman gets his power from the yellow sun, but what happens when he and league fight aliens or inter-dimensional demons on a planet or realm without one?
Does he get his power from the sun in MOS? I thought it was the sun + atmosphere + other stuff

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Old 01-23-2014, 07:05 AM   #32
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Again, saying that the filmmakers will fix/rectify/further explain any major plot points or character arcs in the sequel means the film failed on its own merits.

How is that the precedent? Because that's what happened in the only story that was told so far. That's it. There is no sequel to compare it to. Anything else is conjecture. What was presented was that the character will/can kill at the liberty of the writers. Every movie is a self contained story unless it's left with a cliffhanger. In this story, the precedent is that the character is written to kill the bad guy at the end of the story. Same can be said about Iron Man in IM1 and Captain America in TFA. Don't let Superman fan goggles cloud your vision.
But you act as if killing at the end of this film was seen as a triumph. Clearly, no.

And I don't have Superman fan googles. As presented in the film, doesn't bother me what happened. That doesn't mean I condone murder. I just understood the situation the writers put the character in. It's not that big a deal, honestly.

 
Old 01-23-2014, 07:07 AM   #33
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From what I've seen, most critics didn't have a problem with Superman's actions or that it wasn't like the Donner movies.

The most common main complaint seemed to be that they found the third act to be exhausting and not very satisfying. That much action isn't for everyone, especially if you're not that interested in the story, and thus the complaints that the movie could have used more humour, like SMTM, which is always a surefire way to keep people's attention when they're not 100% invested in the story. For others, the third act is bliss.
If the third act had about 15 minutes trimmed, it probably would have felt better

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Old 01-23-2014, 07:08 AM   #34
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From what I've seen, most critics didn't have a problem with Superman's actions or that it wasn't like the Donner movies.

The most common main complaint seemed to be that they found the third act to be exhausting and not very satisfying. That much action isn't for everyone, especially if you're not that interested in the story, and thus the complaints that the movie could have used more humour, like SMTM, which is always a surefire way to keep people's attention when they're not 100% invested in the story. For others, the third act is bliss.
I actually felt like some of the bigger more well known critics actually did compare it to the Donner films. And insisted it was a problem that MOS wasn't like the Donner films. (tone, campiness, etc.) Which i don't understand at all.

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Old 01-23-2014, 07:08 AM   #35
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Does he get his power from the sun in MOS? I thought it was the sun + atmosphere + other stuff
Then that really limits the locations Superman can fight.

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Old 01-23-2014, 07:10 AM   #36
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The only problem with the third act is the one on one with Zod. It's what everyone wanted to see with today's technology in filmmaking but what preceded was so epic, thrilling, and exhausting that adding that one more sequence at the end felt a bit much, even though it was to be expected, considering we always get it in films of this nature.

 
Old 01-23-2014, 07:10 AM   #37
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But you act as if killing at the end of this film was seen as a triumph. Clearly, no.

And I don't have Superman fan googles. As presented in the film, doesn't bother me what happened. That doesn't mean I condone murder. I just understood the situation the writers put the character in.
That's the thing, there's no breathing room after he kills Zod to know whether the writers meant for it to be triumphant or not. A 7 second scene of him crying is followed by 10 minutes of rushed Return of the King-esque epilogues where everything is happy/positive. The movie ends with everything hunky dory. He comes to terms with his dad's death. He makes snarky comments to the General. Metropolis is rebuilt. Clark and Lois smile at each other. Credits. To me, that means it was meant to be a triumphant culmination to the battle. If they had written the battle to be 8 or so minutes shorter they could have dedicated that time to bringing Supes' character arc full circle to where it eventually ended when the credits rolled.

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Old 01-23-2014, 07:14 AM   #38
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The films shows the Daily Planet the same as ever...not the entirety of Metropolis. But, I know what you're getting at.
Wasn't the DP part of the destroyed area? So I just assumed Clark would've been cycling through other parts of the destroyed area to get there.

But I guess it's another reason for me to rewatch the film.

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Old 01-23-2014, 07:14 AM   #39
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^ Or it just means that the battle is over, and Superman has moved on. In appearance, anyway. Though the whole stadium ending was silly.

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Old 01-23-2014, 07:14 AM   #40
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Then that really limits the locations Superman can fight.
I dunno. I honestly am not that well versed in Superman comics. But as far as the film goes it seems that when he leaves Earth's atmosphere he starts losing his powers. But that's contradictory in the film too because he's shown flying through space. I have no idea why they added the atmosphere thing. They tried to get too technical. Like Lucas and midichlorians

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Old 01-23-2014, 07:15 AM   #41
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^ I never liked the atmosphere addition :/

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Old 01-23-2014, 07:16 AM   #42
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So Superman gets his power from the yellow sun, but what happens when he and league fight aliens or inter-dimensional demons on a planet or realm without one?
I'm hoping for him soaking power like a battery and while he can fight in an area without a yellow sun it would be for a limited basis without the replenishable fuel source.

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Old 01-23-2014, 07:16 AM   #43
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I dunno. I honestly am not that well versed in Superman comics. But as far as the film goes it seems that when he leaves Earth's atmosphere he starts losing his powers. But that's contradictory in the film too because he's shown flying through space. I have no idea why they added the atmosphere thing. They tried to get too technical. Like Lucas and midichlorians
When he was on the Kryptonian craft, he lost his powers because of the atmospheric settings on the ship...not because he was in space.

 
Old 01-23-2014, 07:19 AM   #44
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When he was on the Kryptonian craft, he lost his powers because of the atmospheric settings on the ship...not because he was in space.
Which doesn't make any sense because in space there is no constant atmosphere. So by introducing the "atmospheric changes cause his powers to wane/fluctuate" they wrote themselves into a hole. Based on their scientific reasoning he should only be able to use his strongest powers (i.e. flight) while in the Earth's atmosphere. Someone should have vetoed that from the script.

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Old 01-23-2014, 07:20 AM   #45
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That's the thing, there's no breathing room after he kills Zod to know whether the writers meant for it to be triumphant or not. A 7 second scene of him crying is followed by 10 minutes of rushed Return of the King-esque epilogues where everything is happy/positive. The movie ends with everything hunky dory. He comes to terms with his dad's death. He makes snarky comments to the General. Metropolis is rebuilt. Clark and Lois smile at each other. Credits. To me, that means it was meant to be a triumphant culmination to the battle. If they had written the battle to be 8 or so minutes shorter they could have dedicated that time to bringing Supes' character arc full circle to where it eventually ended when the credits rolled.
First off, he got over his Dad's death years prior. That's not part of the feeling of the end of that film.

As for the rushed ending of the film, yes, could they have had an aftermath aspect from his perspective of what happened to the city and what that means for the people of Earth? Of course they could have. Not saying it's not a flaw in the picture but that in no ways ruins what came before it, in my humble opinion. No way.

His reaction of him killing, I felt, was enough to get across the idea that this was a bad thing for Clark on multiple levels. That moment is about him, not about Metropolis and considering how focused that film is about him, I understand why they stay focused on him and not the destruction.

 
Old 01-23-2014, 07:24 AM   #46
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Wasn't the DP part of the destroyed area? So I just assumed Clark would've been cycling through other parts of the destroyed area to get there.
I've only seen the movie twice so please correct me if I'm wrong but I remember the DP being one of the buildings that collapsed on top of all those running people. That entire area would be inhabitable for years.

This goes back to what I said about the visual effects people in charge of creating Metropolis not putting enough time into creating a real, livable cityscape. It's just buildings with no discernible characteristics. There shouldn't be any confusion about what major landmarks where destroyed.

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Old 01-23-2014, 07:25 AM   #47
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I actually felt like some of the bigger more well known critics actually did compare it to the Donner films. And insisted it was a problem that MOS wasn't like the Donner films. (tone, campiness, etc.) Which i don't understand at all.
I think I understand why they use the Donner comparison.

Some people, who aren't entertained as much by action, likely got bored by the third act because the story wasn't compelling enough to them. If people started to get bored by the end of Black Hawk Down or something, I imagine the complaint a reviewer would make would be that the movie lost steam, or that certain aspects weren't very interesting, the action was repetitive, etc, not that it was too serious or joyless.

However, given that people have a memory of a lighthearted Superman movie that kept their attention and enjoyed, they assume the reason they were bored with MOS is that the movie is not lighthearted and that Superman doesn't work as a serious character conceptually. When really it could have just used more compelling drama to pull them through the action scenes (or more drama instead of action scenes, or more tense action scenes, etc, etc).

Saying that a dead serious Superman movie can't be awesome is sort of ridiculous, but I understand why people would state that.

(and of course, there are just some people who are resistant to change, but I don't think all the reviews with Donner comparisons are like this).


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Old 01-23-2014, 07:29 AM   #48
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First off, he got over his Dad's death years prior. That's not part of the feeling of the end of that film.

As for the rushed ending of the film, yes, could they have had an aftermath aspect from his perspective of what happened to the city and what that means for the people of Earth? Of course they could have. Not saying it's not a flaw in the picture but that in no ways ruins what came before it, in my humble opinion. No way.

His reaction of him killing, I felt, was enough to get across the idea that this was a bad thing for Clark on multiple levels. That moment is about him, not about Metropolis and considering how focused that film is about him, I understand why they stay focused on him and not the destruction.
And for me, seven seconds of him crying on Lois' shoulder followed by 10+ minutes of everything-back-to-normal is by no means enough to complete the character/story arc. From a storytelling perspective that was the worst part of the movie and practically negated everything that came before it. It happens all the time. Good first act. Great second act. Incomplete/rushed third act. If that didn't bother you that's great. I know a lot of people it didn't bother either. But damn did it bother the hell out of me. It was one of the driving points that made me give it a bad review.

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Old 01-23-2014, 07:33 AM   #49
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I hear the anti-Goyer cavalry coming.

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Old 01-23-2014, 07:35 AM   #50
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Some people, who aren't entertained as much by action, likely got bored by the third act because the story wasn't compelling enough to them. If people started to get bored by the end of Black Hawk Down or something, I imagine the complaint a reviewer would make would be that the movie lost steam, or that certain aspects weren't very interesting, the action was repetitive, etc, not that it was too serious or joyless.
From what I noticed it wasn't that there was too much action (some of the big critics who bashed MOS praised the hell out of The Raid which is ALL OUT action) it was that there wasn't a variety of action set pieces. Punch punch fly punch punch building fall punch fly punch *is* boring unless you really really want to see Superman and [insert powerful bad guy] hit each other. Ask any director or fight choreographer, showing a wide variety of action set pieces that are well executed get you high marks with critics. That's why the Faora fight is praised above all the others in MOS. It was quick, powerful, something we haven't seen yet and -- big bonus -- in day light. People can crap all over Michael Bay as much as they want but look at the Transformers battles, particularly in the third one. On paper, robots fighting robots should be monotonous and hard to follow but it was written and shot phenomenally.

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