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Old 02-05-2014, 12:15 AM   #1
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Old 02-05-2014, 12:15 AM   #2
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Old 02-05-2014, 12:15 AM   #3
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Default Re: Henry Cavill IS Superman - Part 3

Me neither. That will cause a geek-out of gargantuan proportions.

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Old 02-05-2014, 12:22 AM   #4
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Default Re: Henry Cavill IS Superman - Part 4

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I would have preferred that to the first picture too.
I'm not sure why, but WB has a tendency to put out the crappiest pics first. I really hope we get a nice quality shot of Affleck in the cowl when they finally decide to reveal it online or wherever.

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Old 02-05-2014, 12:23 AM   #5
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Assuming that Superman and Batman will become trusted allies by the end of the film, it'll definitely be a nice change of pace from having Jimmy Olsen being presented as Clark's only male friend within a live action film.

One of the things that I didn't like from previous films was how Jimmy and Lois were like the only "friends" that Clark was shown to have in Metropolis. I want to see Clark actually having some allies for once (that don't end up getting killed by the end of the film like Hardy and Emil did in MOS).

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Old 02-05-2014, 12:24 AM   #6
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I'm not sure why, but WB has a tendency to put out the crappiest pics first. I really hope we get a nice quality shot of Affleck in the cowl when they finally decide to reveal it online or wherever.
Oh, I hope so too. People will tear Affeck apart if he doesn't look right in that first photo. I hope they don't half-ass it this time.


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Assuming that Superman and Batman will become trusted allies by the end of the film, it'll definitely be a nice change of pace from having Jimmy Olsen being presented as Clark's only male friend within a live action film.

One of the things that I didn't like from previous films was how Jimmy and Lois were like the only "friends" that Clark was shown to have in Metropolis. I want to see Clark actually having some allies for once (that don't end up getting killed by the end of the film like Hardy and Emil did in MOS).
I agree. It would make a nice add-on to MOS to see that he did end up finding some allies later in life when he had very few growing up.


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Old 02-05-2014, 12:29 AM   #7
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Oh, I hope so too. People will tear Affeck apart if he doesn't look right in that first photo. I hope they don't half-ass it this time.
The nerd rage would be unparallelled.

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Old 02-05-2014, 12:32 AM   #8
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Default Re: Henry Cavill IS Superman - Part 4

Affleck himself really isn't a concern in that photo, since he'll be mostly chin, mouth and eyes. It's the costume itself that will make or break it.

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Old 02-05-2014, 12:32 AM   #9
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The nerd rage would be unparallelled.
Some people, probably Affleck supporters, would not survive it...

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Old 02-05-2014, 12:33 AM   #10
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I agree. It would make a nice add-on to MOS to see that he did end up finding some allies later in life when he had very few growing up.
Indeed. You know, you would think that more people would actually feel for the character after having watched "MOS". I mean the dude grew up and lived pretty much a very lonely life. The impression that I got was that he didn't really have any real friends.

Which is ironic since Goyer has said that in MOS, Lana did become Clark's gf at some point in his life and learned his secret somehow like Pete did, but both chose to remain silent about it...and yet based on what's shown on film you'd think that Lois was Clark's first real friend/companion in his life.

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Old 02-05-2014, 12:37 AM   #11
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Indeed. You know, you would think that more people would actually feel for the character after having watched "MOS". I mean the dude grew up and lived pretty much a very lonely life. The impression that I got was that he didn't really have any real friends.
I get a genuine lump in my throat every time I watch the flashbacks to Clark's childhood in MOS.

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Which is ironic since Goyer has said that in MOS, Lana did become Clark's gf at some point in his life and learned his secret somehow like Pete did, but both chose to remain silent about it...and yet based on what's shown on film you'd think that Lois was Clark's first real friend/companion in his life.
I would have liked to have seen the relationship between Lana and Clark a little more developed in MOS, as an indication of how important she was to his life (his close friend and first love). Even something similar to the second episode of Superman: The Animated Series would have sufficed.

As it is, the audience could surmise that there was something there, since Lana is the only one to defend Clark on the bus. But everything else is pretty much left to the audience's imagination.

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Old 02-05-2014, 12:42 AM   #12
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Default Re: Henry Cavill IS Superman - Part 4

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Indeed. You know, you would think that more people would actually feel for the character after having watched "MOS". I mean the dude grew up and lived pretty much a very lonely life. The impression that I got was that he didn't really have any real friends.

Which is ironic since Goyer has said that in MOS, Lana did become Clark's gf at some point in his life and learned his secret somehow like Pete did, but both chose to remain silent about it...and yet based on what's shown on film you'd think that Lois was Clark's first real friend/companion in his life.
I'm not sure if Goyer really confirmed that Lana and Clark got together or if he was just talking about what usually happens in a superman story.

But yes, I don't really understand people judging Clark harshly because of his lack of friends. It wasn't because he was an unpleasant jerk. It was because humans can be cruel to someone who is different. Plus, Clark had to keep people at a distance and hide who he was for his own safety and for the sake of avoiding large-scale upset in the world. It would be hard to make friends that way. To me, this all makes him more endearing. He goes through all this, but still is open to Lois when she treats him nicely and he sacrifices himself in more than just a physical way to save people that aren't always nice to him. Sometimes I think people are just thrown off by a more realistic take on Clark's growing up, as opposed to an idealistic one.

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Old 02-05-2014, 12:46 AM   #13
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Default Re: Henry Cavill IS Superman - Part 4

Lana being a gf around Clark's teenaged years still leaves a lot of solitude for Clark until making a connection with Lois when he's 33.

From MOS I assumed Clark could and did make connections with people, even romantic ones, but they were fleeting and never deep because of him keeping his secret and thinking or needing to move on.

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Old 02-05-2014, 12:51 AM   #14
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I'm not sure if Goyer really confirmed that Lana and Clark got together or if he was just talking about what usually happens in a superman story.

But yes, I don't really understand people judging Clark harshly because of his lack of friends. It wasn't because he was an unpleasant jerk. It was because humans can be cruel to someone who is different. Plus, Clark had to keep people at a distance and hide who he was for his own safety and for the sake of avoiding large-scale upset in the world. It would be hard to make friends that way. To me, this all makes him more endearing. He goes through all this, but still is open to Lois when she treats him nicely and he sacrifices himself in more than just a physical way to save people that aren't always nice to him. Sometimes I think people are just thrown off by a more realistic take on Clark's growing up, as opposed to an idealistic one.
You know, when I really think about it, I really don't get the argument of when people say that they like Batman better because he's easier to relate to audiences than Superman.

I mean Bruce is a freaking Billionaire playboy, who's body has been trained to the best that a human being can be and has a intellect that is not rivaled by many within the DC universe.

I mean, really? People find that easier to relate to? I think someone brought up the topic within the "TDKR Boards" two years ago of how Bruce has never really had to worry about the regular drawbacks of the "outside/real" world.

Growing up, he never had to worry about paying bills or making ends meat. He was afforded the luxury of finding and obtaining the means towards becoming Batman.

Superman on the other hand, grew up just like the rest of us, within a normal family.

Does the fact that he's an alien with good morals make him that much different from people where they can't see themselves as him in some way? Growing up as a outsider? Being an orphan? Having to keep secrets from loved ones? Not being allowed to do something that other kids normally do (sports, etc) because your parents told you not to? Wanting to find your significant other in life? Seems like stuff that regular people would go through.

Plus, given that his Earth parents are farmers and not rich people, I'm sure it's easy to imagine that Clark has worried if they can raise enough money to take care of themselves, especially if he isn't there.

So yeah, I really can't help but roll my eyes a lot when people automatically discredit Superman as being someone that they can't relate to simply because of his powers and place of origin.

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Old 02-05-2014, 12:53 AM   #15
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Default Re: Henry Cavill IS Superman - Part 4

Just wanted to post these 2 photos, Cavill is the Man of Steel. Can't wait till MOS2




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Old 02-05-2014, 12:54 AM   #16
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Default Re: Henry Cavill IS Superman - Part 4

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Lana being a gf around Clark's teenaged years still leaves a lot of solitude for Clark until making a connection with Lois when he's 33.

From MOS I assumed Clark could and did make connections with people, even romantic ones, but they were fleeting and never deep because of him keeping his secret and thinking or needing to move on.
I got that feeling too. I think he was a friendly nice guy who tried to make friends or have some sort of connection with people, but his lifestyle kept getting in the way. We see a couple incidences (bar and boat) in which Clark saves or defends someone and ends up having to leave as a result. It enforces his selflessness really. He could just stop doing things like that, keep up the human facade, and possibly be able to stay in one place a little longer. But he doesn't do that. He can't seem to stop putting himself out there to help people and he suffers because of it.

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Old 02-05-2014, 12:54 AM   #17
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Default Re: Henry Cavill IS Superman - Part 4

I personally wasn't fond of his lonesome childhood. I get where they were going with it, but I did hope he would've had a more fulfilling and cheery upbringing. It's one of the more important distinctions between Clark and Bruce. Clark was the one blessed with a terrific life which consequently shaped his positive outlook on the world. I actually felt more bad for this Clark than I ever did for Bruce in any of the Batman films. That's quite a bit off, I think.

Had they really wanted to push the solitary angle, I would've preferred if it was due to a crucial life altering moment involving his heritage. They had a perfect setup with the tornado scene, establishing the frailties of human life and the necessity in choosing to act/suppress. As it was presented in the film, I don't know if the subplot of trusting and choosing humans was truly earned. It would've been better served had Clark been firmly ingrained with the notion of goodness from those around him. Thereby making his important decisions be rooted in that of inherent goodwill, not one of blind optimism after years of cynicism.

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Old 02-05-2014, 12:57 AM   #18
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Default Re: Henry Cavill IS Superman - Part 4

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Lana being a gf around Clark's teenaged years still leaves a lot of solitude for Clark until making a connection with Lois when he's 33.

From MOS I assumed Clark could and did make connections with people, even romantic ones, but they were fleeting and never deep because of him keeping his secret and thinking or needing to move on.
The movie probably should have spelled that out a little more. I understand Superman is such an iconic character that sometimes it's better to leave things to the imagination, but I would have liked it if Superman's past in Smallville was presented in more detail.

Others have addressed this criticism, but I do think they should have included more positive aspects of Clark's life in Smallville in MOS. One of the most appealing aspects of Superman -- and one of the reasons he's such an admirable figure -- is the fact that he's imbued with the old-fashioned values of heartland America. Part of that relies on a nostalgic view of his upbringing.

Superman: The Movie tread that fine balance. Even though we saw Clark being bullied, we also heard "Rock Around The Clock," we saw a lot of beautiful shots of the Kansas landscape, we saw that Lana (1978 version) may have had a crush on Clark.

I would argue that Smallville also perfectly balanced that aspect of the Superman myth. We saw Clark brimming with teenage angst, but we also saw the wholesome values presented by Ma and Pa Kent (Annette O'Toole and Jonathan Schneider still probably remain my favourite version of the Kents) and that Clark also had a lot of fun in his high school years. The choice of music further reinforced that Americana aura, IMO.

MOS got the basic points right, but it seemed to focus too much on the negative aspects of Clark's childhood, and thus never presented us a reason with why he should care about humanity. The positive aspects of Clark's childhood are really important in that regard.

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Old 02-05-2014, 12:59 AM   #19
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Curious, based on what you guys saw in "MOS" of Clark's character, despite the crap that Clark has had to go through, did you guys feel that the film made it explicit enough on why Clark tends to be heroic and selfless? Is it genetics, his upbringing, or some innate desire?

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Old 02-05-2014, 12:59 AM   #20
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You know, when I really think about it, I really don't get the argument of when people say that they like Batman better because he's easier to relate to audiences than Superman.

I mean Bruce is a freaking Billionaire playboy, who's body has been trained to the best that a human being can be and has a intellect that is not rivaled by many within the DC universe.

I mean, really? People find that easier to relate to? I think someone brought up the topic within the "TDKR Boards" two years ago of how Bruce has never really had to worry about the regular drawbacks of the "outside/real" world.

Growing up, he never had to worry about paying bills or making ends meat. He was afforded the luxury of finding and obtaining the means towards becoming Batman.

Superman on the other hand, grew up just like the rest of us, within a normal family.

Does the fact that he's an alien with good morals make him that much different from people where they can't see themselves as him in some way? Growing up as a outsider? Being an orphan? Having to keep secrets from loved ones? Not being allowed to do something that other kids normally do (sports, etc) because your parents told you not to? Wanting to find your significant other in life? Seems like stuff that regular people would go through.

Plus, given that his Earth parents are farmers and not rich people, I'm sure it's easy to imagine that Clark has worried if they can raise enough money to take care of themselves, especially if he isn't there.

So yeah, I really can't help but roll my eyes a lot when people automatically discredit Superman as being someone that they can't relate to simply because of his powers and place of origin.
You just summed up many of the reasons why I prefer Superman to Batman, given my obvious socialist leanings.

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Old 02-05-2014, 01:06 AM   #21
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Curious, based on what you guys saw in "MOS" of Clark's character, despite the crap that Clark has had to go through, did you guys feel that the film made it explicit enough on why Clark tends to be heroic and selfless? Is it genetics, his upbringing, or some innate desire?
I think it was explicitly clear all his good acts came from within, irrespective of his upbringing. We were basically told (by Lois) that no matter where he went, he'd always be obliged to try and save the day if need be.

It's why I think it's even more poignant Clark grew up happy, because if his heroic deeds were always present, then there should have been moments in his life where he could see humans earned it. It seemed Superman was always going to come to be. So wouldn't it be more impactful if he came into a world that deserved his presence, rather than merely graced with it?

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Old 02-05-2014, 01:08 AM   #22
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It's why I think it's even more poignant Clark grew up happy, because if his heroic deeds were always present, then there should have been moments in his life where he could see humans earned it. It seemed Superman was always going to come to be. So wouldn't it be more impactful if he came into a world that deserved his presence, rather than merely graced with it?
That's a great point. The goodness of Superman should ultimately stem from his faith in humanity. That's something that MOS talked about constantly but rarely showed with any justification.

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Old 02-05-2014, 01:12 AM   #23
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You know, when I really think about it, I really don't get the argument of when people say that they like Batman better because he's easier to relate to audiences than Superman.

I mean Bruce is a freaking Billionaire playboy, who's body has been trained to the best that a human being can be and has a intellect that is not rivaled by many within the DC universe.

I mean, really? People find that easier to relate to? I think someone brought up the topic within the "TDKR Boards" two years ago of how Bruce has never really had to worry about the regular drawbacks of the "outside/real" world.

Growing up, he never had to worry about paying bills or making ends meat. He was afforded the luxury of finding and obtaining the means towards becoming Batman.

Superman on the other hand, grew up just like the rest of us, within a normal family.

Does the fact that he's an alien with good morals make him that much different from people where they can't see themselves as him in some way? Growing up as a outsider? Being an orphan? Having to keep secrets from loved ones? Not being allowed to do something that other kids normally do (sports, etc) because your parents told you not to? Wanting to find your significant other in life? Seems like stuff that regular people would go through.

Plus, given that his Earth parents are farmers and not rich people, I'm sure it's easy to imagine that Clark has worried if they can raise enough money to take care of themselves, especially if he isn't there.

So yeah, I really can't help but roll my eyes a lot when people automatically discredit Superman as being someone that they can't relate to simply because of his powers and place of origin.
hmm, this gives me many...thoughts. But I'll try not to be too long-winded.

I think this has to do with a couple of things.

One is the perceived "naturalness" to each hero's mission.

Batman wants revenge. His family was killed and he wants someone to pay. People may see that as natural for a human and something they would do themselves. And revenge is a natural thing to most.

Superman wants to give something to the world and wants nothing in return. That is something...unnatural for many people. Why would he do this? What is his reason? "I need to know why". People don't ask why batman would want to beat criminals to a pulp because revenge for the slaying of his family is explanation enough. I think it's hard for some to relate to the level of selflessness in superman. It intimidates and makes him seem like more than what is possible.

There's also the wish-fulfillment factor. Superman may be a good-looking, powerful, god-like alien, but he doesn't really exploit all his gifts. He dates one woman for most of his life, he uses his power to benefit others and he holds himself to standards of what is good and decent for a man. Batman is also good-looking, rich, and intelligent. People may perceive that he actually gets to take advantage of what he has. He dates models, he uses his money for many things, including cool gadgets, and his smarts give him the upper hand in many situations. In short, it seems like it may be "cooler" to be batman.

Anyways, that's all I got for now. And of course, these are just musings and theories on an interesting topic. I don't claim these as facts or representations of how everyone feels.

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Old 02-05-2014, 01:19 AM   #24
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I think this has to do with a couple of things.

One is the perceived "naturalness" to each hero's mission.

Batman wants revenge. His family was killed and he wants someone to pay. People may see that as natural for a human and something they would do themselves. And revenge is a natural thing to most.

Superman wants to give something to the world and wants nothing in return. That is something...unnatural for many people. Why would he do this? What is his reason? "I need to know why". People don't ask why batman would want to beat criminals to a pulp because revenge for the slaying of his family is explanation enough. I think it's hard for some to relate to the level of selflessness in superman. It intimidates and makes him seem like more than what is possible.

There's also the wish-fulfillment factor. Superman may be a good-looking, powerful, god-like alien, but he doesn't really exploit all his gifts. He dates one woman for most of his life, he uses his power to benefit others and he holds himself to standards of what is good and decent for a man. Batman is also good-looking, rich, and intelligent. People may perceive that he actually gets to take advantage of what he has. He dates models, he uses his money for many things, including cool gadgets, and his smarts give him the upper hand in many situations. In short, it seems like it may be "cooler" to be batman.
I think the fact that Batman is generally more popular than Superman these days says a lot more about society itself (American society in particular) than anything else.

The values that Batman adheres to, as described in your post, are more celebrated these days because they accord more with the values of the ruling class -- wealthy and privileged, but "tough on crime".

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Old 02-05-2014, 01:21 AM   #25
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Default Re: Henry Cavill IS Superman - Part 4

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Curious, based on what you guys saw in "MOS" of Clark's character, despite the crap that Clark has had to go through, did you guys feel that the film made it explicit enough on why Clark tends to be heroic and selfless? Is it genetics, his upbringing, or some innate desire?
You know, I think it was a combination of an innate goodness, some teachings by the Kents (Pa kent telling Clark that he shouldn't fight the kid at the garage and that "there's more at stake than just our lives", Ma coming for him in the closet), and some observations of goodness (Pete Ross helping clark up, fisherman pushing clark out of the way).

Also, I think life experience would help. He would feel certain things after making these saves and something inside him would tell him "this is right. Keep doing it no matter what anyone tells you." If he's doing stuff like this his whole life, he'd get a feel for it and the relief in peoples' eyes.

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I think the fact that Batman is generally more popular than Superman these days says a lot more about society itself (American society in particular) than anything else.

The values that Batman adheres to, as described in your post, are more celebrated these days because they accord more with the values of the ruling class -- wealthy and privileged, but "tough on crime".
That's a good point.

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