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Old 02-19-2014, 01:23 PM   #26
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Default Re: All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion - - Part 37

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BB WAS loved back in 2005. I don't know what you're talking about, Marvin.
I'm not saying it was hated. I just don't remember:

A: people talking about that film like they talk about TDK

B: people talking about that film like they talk about Spiderman 2

C: that particular film becoming the star making pop culture darling the likes of say, Ironman 1.

At the time. I just didn't see it.
The crappy action coverage didn't help.

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Old 02-19-2014, 01:24 PM   #27
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Default Re: All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion - - Part 37

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My biggest disappointment with what the trailers gave us compared to the actual film, was that the trailers made it seem that MOS would be a deep, intelligent character study of Clark/Superman, just as BB was of Bruce Wayne/Batman.

MOS wasn't. We never really got into Clark's head in MoS and understood his psychology. It was all surface and exposition.
So in other words you needed everything spelled out to you rather than focusing on what was actually happening on screen.

There is a huge amount of this in the visuals and we get very deep into Clark's psychology with dialogue alone, there is just a ton more in the visuals.

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Old 02-19-2014, 01:25 PM   #28
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It doesn't. Why does Clark desire to save people? What drives him?


All we really got was contradictory messages from bipolar Jonathan that the world isn't ready and you should keep your powers a secret, and maybe you should have let the kids die. But you should discover your origins and you are destined to change the world. All throwaway lines for the trailers and marketing, that were handled poorly in the actual film.
This is where things get fickle.

Right off the bat you are implying that when it comes to what and why characters do things, rather why heroes act like heroes, it should literally come by way of another(pa kent of course) telling him how to be? Otherwise we aren't getting a proper character study. (One day I want to visit the universe where MOS is an original picture...)

How's about this kid believes in saving people because he grew up in the mid west and more importantly, by good natured parents. You know unlike all those bullies he ran into. Jon kent gave him guidance, real guidance not silver age fan fiction. But that's beside the point. Superman, young or old(unlike the donner films), is a life time hero cause he was brought up to be that way. Same as parker, when he tells a bully to stop picking on another kid in the opening of ASM. We don't need Ben looking into the camera telling him to stop bullies, but rather Ben Perker acting like a solid father figure, it's literally right there. It's a subtle mans game that. Jon is clearly a good man and so is his boy. Ergo, why the kid believes in saving people but has to struggle with the grayness of the real world in doing so. I imagine the father son convo going a similar route in the instance of Jesus and his step father.

The irony here is that you are actually suggesting that big characterization needs to be earned. I suppose that would explain whey Snyder opted for earning the No Kill mentality vs what many fans say should be inherent.

Like I said, it's a fickle thing.

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Old 02-19-2014, 01:29 PM   #29
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Default Re: All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion - - Part 37

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The Daily Planet scene was nice, but I was still feeling the weight of Clark having to kill Zod and knowing the internal anguish it caused him. And no, I'm not one of those "Superman shouldn't have been put in that situation!" people. I'm fine with the fact that he killed Zod. But at the end of the day I felt the film left more looming questions about Superman's place in the world than it answered, so any triumph there felt a bit muted for me.
Why would it ask more questions. A hero killed a bad guy.

Objectively speaking this would be like watching a die hard movie, having the bad guy killed and you saying it opening up such and such vs closure...
That first die hard is about the dude and his wife issues and by the end that's addressed. MoS is the same:

The entire film mostly hinged on what Jon kent was talking about on the issue of finding a place/role in the world, and the film book ended that chapter with not only lois welcoming him to the world but literally his place of employment(secret id in place). I imagine this greater sense of closure comes from your personal knowledge of needing to see superman struggle with life taking. A requirement you surely didn't have at the end of any of the iron man movies or the batman films...unless you did. I say that cause they be killing their villains in those as well.

Perhaps the next chapter will study the difficult choices a hero must overcome in the face of being a 'saintly' symbol of hope/change/morality but also having to save the world. I'm sure wartime presidents can relate. I digress, the film answered it's own questions. This new question is something your preconceptions of the material is presenting imo.

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Old 02-19-2014, 01:44 PM   #30
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Why would it ask more questions. A hero killed a bad guy.

Objectively speaking this would be like watching a die hard movie, having the bad guy killed and you saying it opening up such and such vs closure...
That first die hard is about the dude and his wife issues and by the end that's addressed. MoS is the same:

The entire film mostly hinged on what Jon kent was talking about on the issue of finding a place/role in the world, and the film book ended that chapter with not only lois welcoming him to the world but literally his place of employment(secret id in place). I imagine this greater sense of closure comes from your personal knowledge of needing to see superman struggle with life taking. A requirement you surely didn't have at the end of any of the iron man movies or the batman films...unless you did.

Perhaps the next chapter will study the difficult choices a hero must overcome in the face of being a 'saintly' symbol of hope/change/morality but also having to save the world. I'm sure wartime presidents can relate. I digress, the film answered it's own questions. This new question is something your preconceptions of the material is presenting imo.
Your last two posts...on the money.

In all honesty, you don't need further stories with Cavill's Clark Kent. At the end of the film, it's a complete story...you know, like how they use to make genre films before everything got serialized to death.

Watch Batman Begins. Did it need a sequel? No, it really didn't. Same with Green Lantern. Same with Man of Steel.

 
Old 02-19-2014, 01:44 PM   #31
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So in other words you needed everything spelled out to you rather than focusing on what was actually happening on screen.

There is a huge amount of this in the visuals and we get very deep into Clark's psychology with dialogue alone, there is just a ton more in the visuals.
This.

 
Old 02-19-2014, 01:44 PM   #32
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Default Re: All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion - - Part 37

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Thank you. The film just exists. It does nothing more than that.
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I think he means filler in that it never furthered any plot. It just sort of happened. Which is fairly accurate, Thor was pretty fully formed, so it was more an epilogue to his first film.

The most important scenes to both the Thor world and overall in the film were arguably Loki's development, accepting his heritage, getting the throne and the scene with the Collector.
No, he categorized all non-Avengers films as filler in his first post. He then reduced it to TDW.

I didn't care that much for either TDW or IM3, but they're not filler.

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Old 02-19-2014, 01:53 PM   #33
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Default Re: All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion - - Part 37

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This.

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Old 02-19-2014, 01:54 PM   #34
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Default Re: All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion - - Part 37

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On a non MOS 2 note GOTG looks average, so far I'm excited about one CBM pre SVB which is Cap. I'm still hoping the next X-Men trailer knocks my socks off and I'm hoping Spideys weak trailers do not mean a weak film.
I'm hoping GOG and Xmen and ASM and Cap 2 are solid for no other reason than to buffer fanboys into understanding that ensemble films don't automatically result in being 'over crowded and non conducive to character development'.

Then again, given the separate standards placed upon WB as with all things...the success of those films will just work work against them.

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Old 02-19-2014, 01:59 PM   #35
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Winter Soldier looks like a knockout....

 
Old 02-19-2014, 02:02 PM   #36
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Winter Soldier looks like a knockout....
Definitely

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Old 02-19-2014, 02:02 PM   #37
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Default Re: All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion - - Part 37

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Why would it ask more questions. A hero killed a bad guy.

Objectively speaking this would be like watching a die hard movie, having the bad guy killed and you saying it opening up such and such vs closure...
That first die hard is about the dude and his wife issues and by the end that's addressed. MoS is the same:

The entire film mostly hinged on what Jon kent was talking about on the issue of finding a place/role in the world, and the film book ended that chapter with not only lois welcoming him to the world but literally his place of employment(secret id in place). I imagine this greater sense of closure comes from your personal knowledge of needing to see superman struggle with life taking. A requirement you surely didn't have at the end of any of the iron man movies or the batman films...unless you did. I say that cause they be killing their villains in those as well.
See, this is why I usually resist even commenting on the movie most of the time because right away I get lumped into a category. I'm not even that huge of a Superman fan. I walked into the movie pretty flexible about how they portrayed him. Him killing Zod was not an issue for me. But was that a triumphant moment? No. It was played as tragic.

I'm not making a statement about quality, I'm just saying that the film had a pretty tragic beat in its third act. It has nothing to do with Superman's "rule", it's just that he had to kill the last remaining member of his race, highlighting even more how alone he is, and surely that's not something he'll just be able to shrug off.

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Old 02-19-2014, 02:04 PM   #38
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Default Re: All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion - - Part 37

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Winter Soldier looks like a knockout....
To me it looks like the marvelized verseion of say Bourne.
For better or worse. In the comics that would be a resounding 'better', in the world of disney, it's a wait and see from me.

I do love how they finally latched on to the no parachute thing. The first film was a pain for me to get through in this regard...I thought whedon would fix it but he didn't. These directors undid all that 12 seconds into the trailer.

Still don't like Evans for Rogers though.

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Old 02-19-2014, 02:07 PM   #39
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See, this is why I usually resist even commenting on the movie most of the time because right away I get lumped into a category. I'm not even that huge of a Superman fan. I walked into the movie pretty flexible about how they portrayed him. Him killing Zod was not an issue for me. But was that a triumphant moment? No. It was played as tragic.

I'm not making a statement about quality, I'm just saying that the film had a pretty tragic beat in its third act. It has nothing to do with Superman's "rule", it's just that he had to kill the last remaining member of his race, highlighting even more how alone he is, and surely that's not something he'll just be able to shrug off.
And how is this tragic ending a problem?

It's very much all about character, the ending they chose.

 
Old 02-19-2014, 02:11 PM   #40
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To me it looks like the marvelized verseion of say Bourne.
For better or worse. In the comics that would be a resounding 'better', in the world of disney, it's a wait and see from me.

I do love how they finally latched on to the no parachute thing. The first film was a pain for me to get through in this regard...I thought whedon would fix it but he didn't. These directors undid all that 12 seconds into the trailer.

Still don't like Evans for Rogers though.
The First Avenger's problem is the second half when it goes into montage mode after it has no more story to tell and that damn flash forward, epilogue ending Marvel tacked on it. I always cut the film after after the slow motion shot of the kids, in the street, mimicking Cap and his commandoes. Silvestri's score swells and boom, cut to black. ****ing perfect ending that gets ruined seconds later.

 
Old 02-19-2014, 02:15 PM   #41
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Default Re: All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion - - Part 37

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And how is this tragic ending a problem?

It's very much all about character, the ending they chose.
It's not a problem. I recognize that this is all subjective. I'm not here to say "Superman must always be sunshine and rainbows!". And I get the significance of Superman choosing Earth over Krypton. That doesn't mean I'm not left with a feeling that based on everything that happened in MoS, they can (and probably will) still reject him and that he has even heavier burdens ahead.

But this conversation started in reference to the one of the trailers. I talked about Trailer 3 painting a more a rousing, inspiring, triumphant feeling, when in reality the film is a bit more dour than that. My part in this conversation was simply commenting on the expectations set by the trailers and why some might've felt misled by them.

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Old 02-19-2014, 02:20 PM   #42
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See, this is why I usually resist even commenting on the movie most of the time because right away I get lumped into a category. I'm not even that huge of a Superman fan. I walked into the movie pretty flexible about how they portrayed him. Him killing Zod was not an issue for me. But was that a triumphant moment? No. It was played as tragic.

I'm not making a statement about quality, I'm just saying that the film had a pretty tragic beat in its third act. It has nothing to do with Superman's "rule", it's just that he had to kill the last remaining member of his race, highlighting even more how alone he is, and surely that's not something he'll just be able to shrug off.
I see what you are saying, and I'm not trying to lump you into the no kill category of people. I'm saying the film told it's story, but because of the circumstance attached to this kill you suggested "it asks more questions" and does close out it's premise...
I ask why? That didn't happen when batman killed his opponents(even after we are told such things pain him).

It seems your issue is that of 'Triumph' A tragic beat in a superman victory. What rule is this going against when it comes to telling a solid story I wonder. Neither here nor there I guess. It's an interesting point you make about his ability to shrug things off. However, how alone is he. his void of has seemingly been filled with romance and understanding of heritage. Killing the devil was no easy task(as seen) but it's not like being the last of his kind is all that new to him. Faora being torn up I'd understand.

More importantly, like his father told him, krypton lives on, literally in him.
More like a hopeful triumph. Either way films with intended sequels allude to next chapters. ASM's ending being a good example. It happens.

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Old 02-19-2014, 02:30 PM   #43
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Default Re: All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion - - Part 37

Yeah, I was going to bring up Spider-Man. Actually both Raimi and Webb's film have that downbeat, yet still hopeful type of ending.

It can and does work. It's just that Man of Steel leads (starting in the trailers) with these grand ideals about changing the world and hope and all this stuff that I feel like the movie only really teases at it all, and maybe that's all it ever realistically could have done in an origin film.

That said, that's why I'm hoping to see a more thorough exploration of these themes in the sequel.

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Old 02-19-2014, 02:43 PM   #44
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Yeah, I was going to bring up Spider-Man. Actually both Raimi and Webb's film have that downbeat, yet still hopeful type of ending.

It can and does work. It's just that Man of Steel leads (starting in the trailers) with these grand ideals about changing the world and hope and all this stuff that I feel like the movie only really teases at it all, and maybe that's all it ever realistically could have done in an origin film.

That said, that's why I'm hoping to see a more thorough exploration of these themes in the sequel.
It's a tricky situation. In my opinion everything Jor El(and Jon el) said in those trailers pertains to what superman needs to become. In my mind that should be representational of superman's career, not his first movie.

When jor says things about them 'joining you in the sun', who really thinks such a thing(even metaphorically) should/could happen over night? I'm hoping that by the end of CavEl's run we'll be taken back to his father vision and dying hope for his childs ultimate destiny. It's only natural. To approach this otherwise would to me, be cheap. It would no doubt involve a Captain America first avenger like superficial montage...

To me Snyder is all about earning, ironically enough. You want a non killer, let's see it unfold, you want the most inspirational hero ever, let's start from day one and get there and watch him slip and fall...The trailers sold superman, but unlike with the past films, this film should have been sold as superman begins. Perhaps that's why his name doesn't appear in the title, nor the trailer(s). I suppose I see what you are getting at though.

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Old 02-19-2014, 02:51 PM   #45
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Default Re: All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion - - Part 37

The way some people over-analyse Man of Steel is quite a sight to behold. I wonder if they apply the same standards to other comic book movies?

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Old 02-19-2014, 02:55 PM   #46
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It's a tricky situation. In my opinion everything Jor El(and Jon el) said in those trailers pertains to what superman needs to become. In my mind that should be representational of superman's career, not his first movie.

When jor says things about them 'joining you in the sun', who really thinks such a thing(even metaphorically) should/could happen over night? I'm hoping that by the end of CavEl's run we'll be taken back to his father vision and dying hope for his childs ultimate destiny. It's only natural. To approach this otherwise would to me, be cheap. It would no doubt involve a Captain America first avenger like superficial montage...

To me Snyder is all about earning, ironically enough. You want a non killer, let's see it unfold, you want the most inspirational hero ever, let's start from day one and get there and watch him slip and fall...The trailers sold superman, but unlike with the past films, this film should have been sold as superman begins. Perhaps that's why his name doesn't appear in the title, nor the trailer(s). I suppose I see what you are getting at though.
All of this...everyone, read and then re-read again because this is the film. Marketing is marketing. It's about getting asses in the seats. I'm not saying the marketing of this film advertised a different flick. But, it is meant to get asses in the seats at the end of the day.

Judge the film by what the film brings to the table. This is what Man of Steel brings to the table...especially since it's the opening salvo to the DC Universe.

 
Old 02-19-2014, 02:56 PM   #47
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Default Re: All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion - - Part 37

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The way some people over-analyse Man of Steel is quite a sight to behold. I wonder if they apply the same standards to other comic book movies?
There's an easy answer to that question:

No.

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Old 02-19-2014, 02:56 PM   #48
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Winter Soldier looks like a knockout....
No question. While sitting in the theater waiting for Robocop, Winter Solider came on and I just sat there and couldn't help but think of chalking another one up for Marvel because it looks absolutely stunningly amazing. Hell, even X-Men Days of Future Past looks sweet as well.

I couldn't help but think ALL of this and STILL a two year wait for SM/BM. Sigh.


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Old 02-19-2014, 03:01 PM   #49
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It's a tricky situation. In my opinion everything Jor El(and Jon el) said in those trailers pertains to what superman needs to become. In my mind that should be representational of superman's career, not his first movie.

When jor says things about them 'joining you in the sun', who really thinks such a thing(even metaphorically) should/could happen over night? I'm hoping that by the end of CavEl's run we'll be taken back to his father vision and dying hope for his childs ultimate destiny. It's only natural. To approach this otherwise would to me, be cheap. It would no doubt involve a Captain America first avenger like superficial montage...

To me Snyder is all about earning, ironically enough. You want a non killer, let's see it unfold, you want the most inspirational hero ever, let's start from day one and get there and watch him slip and fall...The trailers sold superman, but unlike with the past films, this film should have been sold as superman begins. Perhaps that's why his name doesn't appear in the title, nor the trailer(s). I suppose I see what you are getting at though.
I think you nailed it. The film is Superman Begins at its core, but I think the trailers gave us perhaps too much of a glimpse into what the series might feel like as it progressed (pre-BvS of course, now who knows). Again, for me it comes back to the brilliant use of Zimmer's "What are You Going to Do.." theme in the trailer, which in the movie turns out to be more of an ending montage/end credits theme. It also does feel like a bit of an origin film mixed with a sequel to me, so it ends up having a bit of a different rhythm to it than a lot of the superhero origins we've become accustomed to. I think for some this was a great thing, and for others it took them off guard.

I would agree that Snyder/Goyer want to "earn" the Superman status of the comics.

I guess at the end of the day, for a lot of people, the trailers (in particular Trailer 3) captured the perfect tone for a modern day, yet "definitive" version of Superman.

But I think in general, we should all probably learn to keep expectations in check and enjoy trailers for what they are rather than get too invested and attached to them.

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Old 02-19-2014, 03:18 PM   #50
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I'm not saying it was hated. I just don't remember:

A: people talking about that film like they talk about TDK

B: people talking about that film like they talk about Spiderman 2

C: that particular film becoming the star making pop culture darling the likes of say, Ironman 1.

At the time. I just didn't see it.
The crappy action coverage didn't help.
I think Begins was overlooked due to the sense of escapism and grandeur brought by certain previous superhero movies (X2 and Spider-Man 2 come to mind)

I also think that the boring action direction and poorly-written/acted Katie Holmes character had something to do with it.

I think Begins is somewhat vindicated by the seeds it sewn into TDK, though it never got the sort of prestige/infamy the sequels got

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