The SuperHeroHype Forums  

Go Back   The SuperHeroHype Forums > Batman v Superman: Dawn of Justice > Batman v Superman: Dawn of Justice

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 02-19-2014, 03:35 PM   #51
Marvin
Side-Kick
 
Marvin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Toronto
Posts: 16,885
Default Re: All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion - - Part 37

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheFlamingCoco View Post
I think Begins was overlooked due to the sense of escapism and grandeur brought by certain previous superhero movies (X2 and Spider-Man 2 come to mind)

I also think that the boring action direction and poorly-written/acted Katie Holmes character had something to do with it.

I think Begins is somewhat vindicated by the seeds it sewn into TDK, though it never got the sort of prestige/infamy the sequels got
Pretty much this.
However all comic book reception get's re-written in history by fans.

You're right people tend to look at the TDKT success as a whole. I don't think it's easy to really go back there and remember the actual impact of that first film. Granted it's box office(vs say Ironman/spiderman even asm) should say alot.

Again I don't think all that many people disliked it(other than myself), but I do think MOS will benefit from having it's full story told as it's looked upon in history. I also think reboots coming from a bad place tend to have a ceiling in reception, later vindicated by their sequels.

__________________
Stephen Lang for Cable, the most obvious casting in cbm history.

Last edited by Marvin; 02-19-2014 at 03:56 PM.
Marvin is offline  
Old 02-19-2014, 03:35 PM   #52
Marvin
Side-Kick
 
Marvin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Toronto
Posts: 16,885
Default Re: All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion - - Part 37

Quote:
Originally Posted by J.Howlett View Post
All of this...everyone, read and then re-read again because this is the film. Marketing is marketing. It's about getting asses in the seats. I'm not saying the marketing of this film advertised a different flick. But, it is meant to get asses in the seats at the end of the day.

Judge the film by what the film brings to the table. This is what Man of Steel brings to the table...especially since it's the opening salvo to the DC Universe.
It's always a present but when you are presenting a character 40 plus years of present cinematic history you are begging for for the very premise of your film to be disputed by folks. For example how much fun will it be for the audience to watch the mascot of morality......develop his morality. A paradox in some ways, no doubt resulting in a hyperbolic film reception.

All of a sudden things like the tension of having no way out of a situation, something that would no doubt amplify/improve the film experience of any other film(It literally worked wonders for the best batman film of recent memory), becomes a criticism and a crutch. Indicative of 'not understanding the character'.

My favorite part of TDK was when batman was forced to choose who to save mid way though the film and the audience went along for the tense ride that followed though on it's premise. You apply that same objective story telling to Superman and you're ****ed. The audience seemingly just won't think the brand is conducive to such things and what's worse many of them celebrate this mentality.
Reminds me of when spidey caught mj and the trolly...ugh. Hopefully that kinda scenario plays differently in ASM2. Heroes making choices and then facing consequences of being human and not perfect.

On the issue of how to handle such things with this brand, whatever side of the debate the truth falls upon, the Producers made the right choice in my mind cause they chose to go somewhere new. No greater failure than to fail twice the same way. In this regard anyways.

__________________
Stephen Lang for Cable, the most obvious casting in cbm history.
Marvin is offline  
Old 02-19-2014, 03:37 PM   #53
Loki882
Side-Kick
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 11,350
Default Re: All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion - - Part 37

The action scene in Begins were fine, they did exactly what they were intended to do.

Loki882 is offline  
Old 02-19-2014, 03:44 PM   #54
J.Howlett
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion - - Part 37

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marvin View Post
It's always a present but when you are presenting a character 40 plus years of present cinematic history you are begging for for the very premise of your film to be disputed by folks. For example how much fun will it be for the audience to watch the mascot of morality......develop his morality. A paradox in some ways, no doubt resulting in a hyperbolic film reception.

All of a sudden things like the tension of having no way out of a situation, something that would no doubt amplify/improve the film experience of any other film(It literally worked wonders for the best batman film of recent memory), becomes a criticism and a crutch. Indicative of 'not understanding the character'.

My favorite part of TDK was when batman was forced to choose who to save mid way though the film and the audience went along for the tense ride that followed though on it's premise. You apply that same objective story telling to Superman and you're ****ed. The audience seemingly just won't think the brand is conducive to such things and what's worse many of them celebrate this mentality.
Reminds me of when spidey caught mj and the trolly...ugh. Hopefully that kinda scenario plays differently in ASM2. Heroes making choices and then facing consequences of being human and not perfect.

On the issue of how to handle such things with this brand, whatever side of the debate the truth falls upon, the Producers made the right choice in my mind cause they chose to go somewhere new. No greater failure than to fail twice the same way. In this regard anyways.
Agree with everything said here. Everything.

 
Old 02-19-2014, 03:45 PM   #55
TheFlamingCoco
Side-Kick
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 7,880
Default Re: All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion - - Part 37

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marvin View Post
Pretty much this.
However all comic book reception get's re-written his history by fans.

You're right people tend to look at the TDKT success as a whole. I don't think it's easy to really go back there and remember the actual impact of that first film. Granted it's box office(vs say Ironman/spiderman even asm) should say alot.

Again I don't think all that many people disliked it(other than myself), but I do think MOS will benefit from having it's full story told as it's looked upon in history. I also think reboots coming from a bad place tend to have a ceiling in reception, later vindicated by their sequels.
I do think that MOS will be better received as the concept of a dark movie featuring superpowered heroes is "legitimized." I still think the serious movies that have superheroes and get a good reception are thought of as good dramas featuring superheroes rather than good "superhero" movies (which, truthfully, has more than a little validity). I think critics still think that traditional superhero fantasies should be based on camp, stylization, and (relative) kid-friendliness. As much as I like Avengers, I think it only intensified that preconception.

I think after critics are more accepting of the concept of a serious traditional superhero movie (which will probably need an Avengers quality power-oriented movie. Batman doesn't count because he doesn't have powers.), they'll reevaluate past movies, including Watchmen and MOS.

MOS was sandwiched in between the legacies of the TDKT and Avengers (and Superman:TM as well).
One would be hard to match, the other would take a combination of reverence and lampoon of the source material, and the third one would be IMPOSSIBLE to match (Superman:TM made the superhero genre a viable one, I don't think any other superhero movies can REALLY make that claim).

So it didn't have one franchise to be compared to, but THREE

TheFlamingCoco is offline  
Old 02-19-2014, 03:50 PM   #56
J.Howlett
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion - - Part 37

Quote:
Originally Posted by BatLobsterRises View Post
I think you nailed it. The film is Superman Begins at its core, but I think the trailers gave us perhaps too much of a glimpse into what the series might feel like as it progressed (pre-BvS of course, now who knows). Again, for me it comes back to the brilliant use of Zimmer's "What are You Going to Do.." theme in the trailer, which in the movie turns out to be more of an ending montage/end credits theme. It also does feel like a bit of an origin film mixed with a sequel to me, so it ends up having a bit of a different rhythm to it than a lot of the superhero origins we've become accustomed to. I think for some this was a great thing, and for others it took them off guard.

I would agree that Snyder/Goyer want to "earn" the Superman status of the comics.

I guess at the end of the day, for a lot of people, the trailers (in particular Trailer 3) captured the perfect tone for a modern day, yet "definitive" version of Superman.

But I think in general, we should all probably learn to keep expectations in check and enjoy trailers for what they are rather than get too invested and attached to them.
Goyer basically said as much after the release in interviews. His entire intention of the project was to accentuate the sci-fi/alien aspect of the character and to make this Superman Begins. That should've really surprised anyone considering his track record.

As for Zimmer's main theme at the end of the film, like Bruce's/Batman's theme at the credits of BEGINS, Clark's earned that ending. Couple the theme with the final exchange between Lois and Clark and it feels completely appropriate and earned.

I smile every time.

 
Old 02-19-2014, 03:52 PM   #57
J.Howlett
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion - - Part 37

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheFlamingCoco View Post
I do think that MOS will be better received as the concept of a dark movie featuring superpowered heroes is "legitimized." I still think the serious movies that have superheroes and get a good reception are thought of as good dramas featuring superheroes rather than good "superhero" movies (which, truthfully, has more than a little validity). I think critics still think that traditional superhero fantasies should be based on camp, stylization, and (relative) kid-friendliness. As much as I like Avengers, I think it only intensified that preconception.

I think after critics are more accepting of the concept of a serious traditional superhero movie (which will probably need an Avengers quality power-oriented movie. Batman doesn't count because he doesn't have powers.), they'll reevaluate past movies, including Watchmen and MOS.

MOS was sandwiched in between the legacies of the TDKT and Avengers (and Superman:TM as well).
One would be hard to match, the other would take a combination of reverence and lampoon of the source material, and the third one would be IMPOSSIBLE to match (Superman:TM made the superhero genre a viable one, I don't think any other superhero movies can REALLY make that claim).

So it didn't have one franchise to be compared to, but THREE
Never really thought about that legacy angle you presented. It's completely accurate though.

 
Old 02-19-2014, 03:55 PM   #58
TheFlamingCoco
Side-Kick
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 7,880
Default Re: All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion - - Part 37

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marvin View Post
Pretty much this.
However all comic book reception get's re-written his history by fans.

You're right people tend to look at the TDKT success as a whole. I don't think it's easy to really go back there and remember the actual impact of that first film. Granted it's box office(vs say Ironman/spiderman even asm) should say alot.

Again I don't think all that many people disliked it(other than myself), but I do think MOS will benefit from having it's full story told as it's looked upon in history. I also think reboots coming from a bad place tend to have a ceiling in reception, later vindicated by their sequels.
It's funny, but the folks who hated TDKR generally blame Nolan for not caring (which, I think has some legitimacy-I get the feeling he wanted to go out with a bang, but never direct another CBM again), while the folks who liked TDKR/TDK generally blame Goyer for his "third act issues."

TheFlamingCoco is offline  
Old 02-19-2014, 04:00 PM   #59
Crimson King
Superhero Novelista
 
Crimson King's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 5,918
Default Re: All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion - - Part 37

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheFlamingCoco View Post
I do think that MOS will be better received as the concept of a dark movie featuring superpowered heroes is "legitimized." I still think the serious movies that have superheroes and get a good reception are thought of as good dramas featuring superheroes rather than good "superhero" movies (which, truthfully, has more than a little validity). I think critics still think that traditional superhero fantasies should be based on camp, stylization, and (relative) kid-friendliness. As much as I like Avengers, I think it only intensified that preconception.

I think after critics are more accepting of the concept of a serious traditional superhero movie (which will probably need an Avengers quality power-oriented movie. Batman doesn't count because he doesn't have powers.), they'll reevaluate past movies, including Watchmen and MOS.

MOS was sandwiched in between the legacies of the TDKT and Avengers (and Superman:TM as well).
One would be hard to match, the other would take a combination of reverence and lampoon of the source material, and the third one would be IMPOSSIBLE to match (Superman:TM made the superhero genre a viable one, I don't think any other superhero movies can REALLY make that claim).

So it didn't have one franchise to be compared to, but THREE
I don't disagree, necessarily, but they could have overcome all of that by simply writing a better script. That, more than anything, was MoS's biggest fault. The script needed to be top-notch due to the pressures involved in the reboot and he didn't deliver.

__________________
kingwrites.com // @kingmatte
Crimson King is offline  
Old 02-19-2014, 04:08 PM   #60
Marvin
Side-Kick
 
Marvin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Toronto
Posts: 16,885
Default Re: All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion - - Part 37

Quote:
Originally Posted by Crimson King View Post
I don't disagree, necessarily, but they could have overcome all of that by simply writing a better script. That, more than anything, was MoS's biggest fault. The script needed to be top-notch due to the pressures involved in the reboot and he didn't deliver.
A better script wouldn't completely nullify such things. It's the principle of the matter.

There needs to be a real conversation about the actual grading the film deserves.

-Is the film as dead/dull as this last robocop? A film with a similar grading...
-Are films like robocop2014 and oldboy2013 really all that bad or are they facing this same level of conflict with celebrated legacy...

It's the principle of the issue, regardless of how much better a script could be.

__________________
Stephen Lang for Cable, the most obvious casting in cbm history.
Marvin is offline  
Old 02-19-2014, 04:09 PM   #61
TheFlamingCoco
Side-Kick
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 7,880
Default Re: All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion - - Part 37

^ This. I think the direction was serviceable, even good at times, when Zack wasn't attempting Bourne-style editing/camera angles. But the writing was all over the place, and I think the pacing suffered in part because things weren't fleshed out from a script level.

TheFlamingCoco is offline  
Old 02-19-2014, 04:33 PM   #62
Crimson King
Superhero Novelista
 
Crimson King's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 5,918
Default Re: All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion - - Part 37

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marvin View Post
A better script wouldn't completely nullify such things. It's the principle of the matter.

There needs to be a real conversation about the actual grading the film deserves.

-Is the film as dead/dull as this last robocop? A film with a similar grading...
-Are films like robocop2014 and oldboy2013 really all that bad or are they facing this same level of conflict with celebrated legacy...

It's the principle of the issue, regardless of how much better a script could be.
You keep bringing this up and I simply don't understand it. MoS wasn't graded on a weighted scale. It's people's opinions, same as yours. I know a lot of people that love the new Robocop. I take it you thought it wasn't as good? That's fine. But to suggest that somehow it's given a pass where MoS isn't because of some vendetta against MoS is...odd. What's more likely, that some people just didn't think MoS was very good or that there's a conspiracy amongst reviewers to lower its grade?

Many, if not all, of the biggest complaints people keep bringing up with MoS could have been fixed with script changes. If you keep people engaged in the story and don't draw them out of it with poor dialog, etc., you'll notice that they tend to overlook some of the niggling things MoS gets dinged for.

__________________
kingwrites.com // @kingmatte
Crimson King is offline  
Old 02-19-2014, 04:43 PM   #63
Marvin
Side-Kick
 
Marvin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Toronto
Posts: 16,885
Default Re: All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion - - Part 37

Quote:
Originally Posted by Crimson King View Post
You keep bringing this up and I simply don't understand it. MoS wasn't graded on a weighted scale. It's people's opinions, same as yours. I know a lot of people that love the new Robocop. I take it you thought it wasn't as good? That's fine. But to suggest that somehow it's given a pass where MoS isn't because of some vendetta against MoS is...odd. What's more likely, that some people just didn't think MoS was very good or that there's a conspiracy amongst reviewers to lower its grade?

Many, if not all, of the biggest complaints people keep bringing up with MoS could have been fixed with script changes. If you keep people engaged in the story and don't draw them out of it with poor dialog, etc., you'll notice that they tend to overlook some of the niggling things MoS gets dinged for.
I actually enjoyed the new robo cop movie, the sentiment I used was borrowed from the negative reviews, blogs I've read. Which is my point. How bad is the film really. Just walk in on a friday having never heard of the brand and grade the film. That luxury is lost when you start remaking popular fiction.

Secondly, I don't think that film was given a pass, I think both films weren't met by everyone in an objective way when it came to the objective experience.

Lastly, for all the people that legitimately found the new robocop film 'dull, uninspired', given it's score isn't all the removed from MOS, how do the films compare. The critics seemingly put them in the same grade..was mos seen in a similar way as this film..

I do have my doubts the new robocop film wasn't graded on a weighted scale. Not sure how it couldn't have been given how often Paul's name has been popping up in it's reviews. That doesn't happen with all films.

__________________
Stephen Lang for Cable, the most obvious casting in cbm history.
Marvin is offline  
Old 02-19-2014, 05:00 PM   #64
The Guard
Side-Kick
 
The Guard's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 26,106
Default Re: All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion - - Part 37

So we've got people who want GREEN LANTERN to look less like Green Lantern and more like TRON...

People who saw a trailer, hyped themselves up with overactive imaginations, and then saw the very same stuff in the trailer in the movie, but not in the same context they GUESSED or IMAGINED it would be...and now the trailer is somehow misleading about what the film actually contained?

As well as people claiming that MAN OF STEEL was all surface, with no exploration of Clark's psychology? Yeah, I get it. The movie didn't exactly show why Clark would want to save people, but it's also not a complex concept based on the human experience. Because with his powers, he could do so, and could choose to do so.

The more interesting psychological issue at play, and what they rightfully chose to focus on in this film, was how others would interpret his powers, see his role in the world, and how he himself would see himself and what he would do based on those reactions. To pretend that Clark Kent has no characterization and no development or psychological exploration in MAN OF STEEL is to just willfully ignore what the film both shows and tells you.

On a happier note, does anyone else ever just think about putting like, half the regular posters on ignore from time to time?

__________________
Writer and Lyricist of GOTHAM'S KNIGHT: THE BATMAN MUSICAL

And if I'm right
The future's looking bright
A symbol in the skies at night

Last edited by The Guard; 02-19-2014 at 05:05 PM.
The Guard is offline  
Old 02-19-2014, 05:04 PM   #65
BatLobsterRises
Lobsterized
 
BatLobsterRises's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: NJ
Posts: 7,436
Default Re: All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion - - Part 37

I kind of disagree about the assessments of BB. It didn't quite catch on with the mainstream the way the sequels did, but the core fanbase adored it for the most part. Just dig up old threads here for the proof. Sure, you had the Burton-fans who went against the grain on it, and there were haters as there are for anything, but for the most part it was treated like a classic by the fans. Everybody who had ever been associated with the character in the past (both in film and comics) publicly praised it. There was no "Mark Waid" equivalent. The division in the fanbase was not at the levels we've seen here for MoS.

Then again, it was kind of a different world back then in terms of social media, etc. The bar is raised much higher now then it was back then, thanks in part because of those Batman films. And ever since 2012, we seem to be living in the age of the divisive blockbuster. So I do agree that MoS kind of landed in a perfect storm of difficult circumstances.

But I disagree that BB has had a lot of revisionist history applied to it. Maybe by some people, for the most part I still feel like it's fairly overlooked by the mainstream, and from what I've observed the same fans that loved it in 2005 are the same fans who still call it their favorite.

__________________
IMAGINE THE FIRE
My TDKR Metal cover
My MOS Trailer 3 score recreation
My take on why there is no "DC Films" Division at WB:
http://forums.superherohype.com/show...&postcount=158

Last edited by BatLobsterRises; 02-19-2014 at 05:07 PM.
BatLobsterRises is offline  
Old 02-19-2014, 05:06 PM   #66
Capt. Marvelous
Banned User
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 398
Default Re: All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion - - Part 37

Quote:
Originally Posted by J.Howlett View Post
What drives Clark is the fact that he has these extraordinary abilities to help others around him. It's in his nature two fold; from his adoptive parents and from his birth parents. He is the byproduct of two sets of loving parents.
The parents raised him to be a hero in the comics, yes. But going into this film without that knowledge, one would think his parents raised him to be bi-polar... given the mixed messages that Jonathan was delivering to him in the pretentious, yet very awkward and conflicting dialogue designed to throw into trailers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by J.Howlett View Post
Now, what is his most important drive in the film is finding out who the hell he is and the why of him. But, there's also the desire to belong which is what the entire second half of the picture is about, when it comes to the arrive of the Kryptonians.
The film didn't really convey that Clark has a desire to belong. He spent a lot of his years in hiding following Jonathan's advice. But he also followed Jonathan's advice to seek out his origins. It was contradictory, but we never really got into Clark's head and understood his thinking process. We did with Bale's Bruce.

Hide your Alien side because the world isn't ready, let people die. Discover your alien side because your destiny is to change the world.

I get the ideas behind what Goyer wanted to do here, but it was executed really poorly.

Capt. Marvelous is offline  
Old 02-19-2014, 05:07 PM   #67
J.Howlett
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion - - Part 37

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Guard View Post
So we've got people who want GREEN LANTERN to look less like Green Lantern and more like TRON...

People who saw a trailer, hyped themselves up with overactive imaginations, and then saw the very same stuff in the trailer in the movie, but not in the same context they GUESSED or IMAGINED it would be...and now the trailer is somehow misleading about what the film actually contained?

As well as people claiming that MAN OF STEEL was all surface, with no exploration of Clark's psychology? Yeah, I get it. The movie didn't exactly show why Clark would want to save people, but it's also not a complex concept based on the human experience. Because with his powers, he could do so, and could choose to do so.

The more interesting psychological issue at play, and what they rightfully chose to focus on in this film, was how others would interpret his powers, see his role in the world, and how he himself would see himself and what he would do based on those reactions. To pretend that Clark Kent has no characterization and no development or psychological exploration in MAN OF STEEL is to just willfully ignore what the film both shows and tells you.

On a happier note, does anyone else ever just think about putting like, half the regular posters on ignore from time to time?
My man! Breaking it down like no other.

 
Old 02-19-2014, 05:09 PM   #68
The Guard
Side-Kick
 
The Guard's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 26,106
Default Re: All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion - - Part 37

Quote:
It doesn't. Why does Clark desire to save people? What drives him?
Is this really a difficult question to answer?

The film flat out SHOWS us why, in one of his earliest scenes.

Because he has incredible powers, and because he's a decent person, and can do so.

Quote:
All we really got was contradictory messages from bipolar Jonathan that the world isn't ready and you should keep your powers a secret, and maybe you should have let the kids die.
No, that's all "all we got".

We actually got several perspectives, including Clark's.

Quote:
But you should discover your origins and you are destined to change the world. All throwaway lines for the trailers and marketing, that were handled poorly in the actual film.
Debatable.

"Not being spelled out" does not equal "being handled poorly".

Quote:
In BB, we got in-depth coverage of what motivated Bruce Wayne's desire to train, his crusade, his perception of justice and his ethics. And why he seeks to inspire fear in criminals (using the symbol that inspired fear in him) while bringing hope to Gotham.
Right.

BATMAN BEGINS explored concepts and character elements that are central to Batman's character. In many respects, Batman is a more complex character than Superman, at least psychologically, in terms of his basic character makeup. Hence a bit more exploration of what "drives" him.

However, Superman is a more complex character than Batman in certain respects as well; with regard to his global significance, etc.

As such, MAN OF STEEL explored things that were central to Superman's character.

__________________
Writer and Lyricist of GOTHAM'S KNIGHT: THE BATMAN MUSICAL

And if I'm right
The future's looking bright
A symbol in the skies at night

Last edited by The Guard; 02-19-2014 at 05:15 PM.
The Guard is offline  
Old 02-19-2014, 05:10 PM   #69
Capt. Marvelous
Banned User
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 398
Default Re: All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion - - Part 37

Quote:
Originally Posted by BH/HHH View Post
On a non MOS 2 note GOTG looks average, so far I'm excited about one CBM pre SVB which is Cap. I'm still hoping the next X-Men trailer knocks my socks off and I'm hoping Spideys weak trailers do not mean a weak film.
Guardians Of The Galaxy looks like the perfect tone for:

Blue Beetle + Booster Gold





Which could have been an amazing DC film.


I think Ant-Man will basically be Marvel's Blue Beetle.

Capt. Marvelous is offline  
Old 02-19-2014, 05:14 PM   #70
The Guard
Side-Kick
 
The Guard's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 26,106
Default Re: All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion - - Part 37

I dunno...I'd hope BLUE BEETLE & BOOSTER GOLD would actually be funny.

__________________
Writer and Lyricist of GOTHAM'S KNIGHT: THE BATMAN MUSICAL

And if I'm right
The future's looking bright
A symbol in the skies at night
The Guard is offline  
Old 02-19-2014, 05:20 PM   #71
Capt. Marvelous
Banned User
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 398
Default Re: All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion - - Part 37

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Guard View Post
Is this really a difficult question to answer?

The film flat out SHOWS us why, in one of his earliest scenes.

Because he has incredible powers, and because he's a decent person, and can do so.
What makes him 'decent' in that regard ? He's going out of his way to save people as a kid despite his father telling him to keep his powers hidden.

What makes him so driven to save people that he would disregard the wishes of his parents?


Ultimately, Clark in MOS saves people because the script requires him to. The MOS characters were hollow and underdeveloped, including Clark.

It was nowhere near the complex character study that Batman Begins was. It tried to be. I'm sure Goyer intended it to be, but he really just gave us decent ideas that were executed in a subpar manner in the script, leading to a very hollow product.


Quote:
Originally Posted by The Guard View Post
I dunno...I'd hope BLUE BEETLE & BOOSTER GOLD would actually be funny.
Well considering that film would never happen at WB/DC, you'll just have to imagine the funny.

Capt. Marvelous is offline  
Old 02-19-2014, 05:22 PM   #72
Marvin
Side-Kick
 
Marvin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Toronto
Posts: 16,885
Default Re: All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion - - Part 37

Quote:
Originally Posted by BatLobsterRises View Post
I kind of disagree about the assessments of BB. It didn't quite catch on with the mainstream the way the sequels did, but the core fanbase adored it for the most part. Just dig up old threads here for the proof. Sure, you had the Burton-fans who went against the grain on it, and there were haters as there are for anything, but for the most part it was treated like a classic by the fans. Everybody who had ever been associated with the character in the past (both in film and comics) publicly praised it. There was no "Mark Waid" equivalent. The division in the fanbase was not at the levels we've seen here for MoS.

Then again, it was kind of a different world back then in terms of social media, etc. The bar is raised much higher now then it was back then, thanks in part because of those Batman films. And ever since 2012, we seem to be living in the age of the divisive blockbuster. So I do agree that MoS kind of landed in a perfect storm of difficult circumstances.

But I disagree that BB has had a lot of revisionist history applied to it. Maybe by some people, for the most part I still feel like it's fairly overlooked by the mainstream, and from what I've observed the same fans that loved it in 2005 are the same fans who still call it their favorite.
In my experience during those times on the hype. The film came out and hypers celebrated(though it was a far less cynical time partly due to less divisions). It was def more loved than say superman returns.

And alot of us were happy to finally see the material respected but...
it had it's fair share of detractors and many like you say were burton/timm fans. There were always the uber bat champions, some people wanted more of the fantastical(even of the previous era)..etc

When people say IM was a resounding launch I get it, when people say the same of begins, I just don't remember it that way. The heavy resounding started in 2008.

Lastly, Morrison, when sharing his thoughts on MOS recently and he mentioned simply that like Batman Begins, he feels some kinda way about the ground work being laid but he's looking forward to them to TDK it. Given how he writes his batman, I think he's saying begins wasn't all that hot. But that's just my reading.

__________________
Stephen Lang for Cable, the most obvious casting in cbm history.
Marvin is offline  
Old 02-19-2014, 05:32 PM   #73
BatLobsterRises
Lobsterized
 
BatLobsterRises's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: NJ
Posts: 7,436
Default Re: All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion - - Part 37

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marvin View Post
In my experience during those times on the hype. The film came out and hypers celebrated(though it was a far less cynical time partly due to less divisions). It was def more loved than say superman returns.

And alot of us were happy to finally see the material respected but...
it had it's fair share of detractors and many like you say were burton/timm fans. There were always the uber bat champions, some people wanted more of the fantastical(even of the previous era)..etc

When people say IM was a resounding launch I get it, when people say the same of begins, I just don't remember it that way. The heavy resounding started in 2008.

Lastly, Morrison, when sharing his thoughts on MOS recently and he mentioned simply that like Batman Begins, he feels some kinda way about the ground work being laid but he's looking forward to them to TDK it. Given how he writes his batman, I think he's saying begins wasn't all that hot. But that's just my reading.
I think you might be extrapolating a bit there.

http://www.rollingstone.com/movies/l...egins-19691231

That said, I'm sure there's some Bat-authors out there who aren't the biggest fans of the movie. The movie is just lucky in that those guys either haven't spoken up or haven't been heard.

__________________
IMAGINE THE FIRE
My TDKR Metal cover
My MOS Trailer 3 score recreation
My take on why there is no "DC Films" Division at WB:
http://forums.superherohype.com/show...&postcount=158
BatLobsterRises is offline  
Old 02-19-2014, 05:33 PM   #74
Wise
Watchtower Janitor
 
Wise's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 4,376
Default Re: All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion - - Part 37

I think Gotham should look like what would happen if Chicago or New York went the way of Detroit.

__________________
We've had a chai Zod... a soy chai.

HERESY!
Wise is offline  
Old 02-19-2014, 05:45 PM   #75
Marvin
Side-Kick
 
Marvin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Toronto
Posts: 16,885
Default Re: All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion - - Part 37

Quote:
Originally Posted by BatLobsterRises View Post
I think you might be extrapolating a bit there.

http://www.rollingstone.com/movies/l...egins-19691231

That said, I'm sure there's some Bat-authors out there who aren't the biggest fans of the movie. The movie is just lucky in that those guys either haven't spoken up or haven't been heard.
Interesting I've never read that. However I was speaking on his more recent soundbites.

What's more he seems to be summing up his thoughts on "nolan's batman films" in general there(something as a whole he likes), in the next slide he specifically talks about why he liked TDK for instance. I suppose it's something.

Here's what I was referring to
I kinda liked it and kinda didn’t, to be honest. I feel bad because I like [director] Zack Snyder and [writer] David Goyer, and [star] Henry Cavill was really good. But it felt like one of those ones where it’s like, “Bring on the second movie now that you’ve done this,” and I don’t need to see that as someone who knows all I know about Superman. For me, it was a bit “seen it before,” no matter how they tried to make it a little bit different. I’m more looking forward to the Dark Knight version of Superman, the next one, where hopefully it will have Lex Luthor and be some fantastic second act.

It’s a credible Superman for now....

http://www.slashfilm.com/grant-morri...n-pacific-rim/

^This idea that he's on board now and fulling awaiting that TDK elevation into the next chapter. I maybe be extrapolating but that's my read, no doubt given it's my exact sentiments growing up on his batman.

__________________
Stephen Lang for Cable, the most obvious casting in cbm history.
Marvin is offline  
Closed Thread

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 07:43 PM.

monitoring_string = "dee460792f24517621e3ca080805de7e"
Contact Us - Mobile - SuperHeroHype - ComingSoon.net - Shock Till You Drop - Lost Password - Clear Cookies - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Top - AdChoices


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
SuperHeroHype.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2014 All Rights Reserved.