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Old 02-19-2014, 04:46 PM   #76
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Default Re: All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion - - Part 37

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What makes him 'decent' in that regard?
In what regard?

What makes him decent about saving people?

Quote:
He's going out of his way to save people as a kid despite his father telling him to keep his powers hidden.
But...he didn't, really. His father told him to keep his powers hidden (maybe) after he saved people.

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What makes him so driven to save people that he would disregard the wishes of his parents?
Well, an alien invasion seemed to do the trick.

His parents never told him not to save people ever. His father basically told him "figure out who you are, what you are, and why you are here, and be mindful of the impact that will have on the world".

By the time an event big enough to necessitate him revealing himself to the world happened, he had done that.

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Ultimately, Clark in MOS saves people because the script requires him to.
Which...is why Superman always saves people, if you get right down to it.

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It was nowhere near the complex character study that Batman Begins was.
1. So?

2. Side note, I didn't really find BATMAN BEGINS that complex a character study. It got the basics right. I don't consider that particularly "complex" when it comes to Batman.

[quote]It tried to be. I'm sure Goyer intended it to be, but he really just gave us decent ideas that were executed in a subpar manner in the script, leading to a very hollow product.

What was subpar about the execution of the ideas, exactly?

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The MOS characters were hollow and underdeveloped, including Clark.
I don't even know what that means. Seriously, sometimes it sounds like some of you just string together buzzwords as if that constitutes an argument about the execution of something.

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Well considering that film would never happen at WB/DC, you'll just have to imagine the funny.
They've been talking about a BOOSTER GOLD series. I'm sure his pal Ted Kord might drop by to wish him luck.

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Old 02-19-2014, 04:49 PM   #77
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Default Re: All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion - - Part 37

No offense to any cities and citizens in them but this is how I see Gotham: Gotham City is a populous North East coast city like New York City with a police dept. as corrupt as New Orleans', a political class as corrupt as Old Daly's Chicago and with an economy as depressed as Detroit's is these days, but like NYC and London in the modern day it is also a city that caters to it's super wealthy. All rolled together it equals the perfect crime ridden city for the Caped Crusader to ply his trade: Punishing the wicked... without anyone's consent.

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Old 02-19-2014, 05:05 PM   #78
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Default Re: All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion - - Part 37

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What makes him 'decent' in that regard ? He's going out of his way to save people as a kid despite his father telling him to keep his powers hidden.

What makes him so driven to save people that he would disregard the wishes of his parents?


Ultimately, Clark in MOS saves people because the script requires him to. The MOS characters were hollow and underdeveloped, including Clark.
For starters, you'd have to find an instance of his parents telling him not to save people. The way I remember it they were against him exposing his powers(kinda par for the course given his source material if you ask me). And in a twist they, didn't actually say keep the powers hidden indefinitely, just till you find yourself. Basic parental coming of age allusion imo.

Secondly, even if his father specifically told him not to save people(rather than keeping that other side a secret), that wouldn't undo clarks characterization. That's like a kid wanting to show the world how gay and talented he is, running into a closed minded father urging him not to and still doing it anyhow. The characterization comes from who he was raised to be and his intrinsic response to experience(ouch fire hurts). This is true characterization, not simply being told what to do.

Better example, Rose from Titanic, told what to do by everyone(important people too) but who she is stems intrinsically and from her nature, all this 'advice' she encounters however conflicting simply offers opportunity for, development, ironically enough. This is run of the mill disney/pixar gunk. Protagonist is who he/she is, and the world 'tells' them to be something else. They are who they are not because of the chef's telling them rat's can't cook, but because they are a product of their upbringing and also how they see themselves. no no no, How to train your Dragon is probably the most apt comparison, seemingly a masterclass on the matter imo.

In short, who he is happens to be alot more 'complex' than a conversation and stern words form his father figure. I can say the same for myself, especially at that age. That might be a bit radical for superman but it shouldn't be for honest/honorable story telling.

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Old 02-19-2014, 05:17 PM   #79
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Default Re: All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion - - Part 37

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In what regard?

I didn't really find BATMAN BEGINS that complex a character study. It got the basics right. I don't consider that particularly "complex" when it comes to Batman.
In Batman Begins' defense I don't think it was meant to be an intense character study, but rather a realistic reimagining of the hero's journey. I thought it accomplished that beautifully.

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Old 02-19-2014, 05:27 PM   #80
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Default Re: All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion - - Part 37

As did I.

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Old 02-19-2014, 05:29 PM   #81
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Default Re: All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion - - Part 37

I didn't like how he didn't even use his powers...i mean he didn't even fly

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Old 02-19-2014, 11:59 PM   #82
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Default Re: All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion - - Part 37

Not to start a DC/Marvel war of any kind, but.... wow. It's like the new Fantastic Four cast was assembled for the sole purpose of taking heat off of Eisenberg being cast as Lex.

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Old 02-20-2014, 12:04 AM   #83
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Default Re: All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion - - Part 37

Jamie Bell rumored as The Thing????

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Old 02-20-2014, 12:09 AM   #84
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Default Re: All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion - - Part 37

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Jamie Bell rumored as The Thing????
This movie is sounding worse all the time.


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Old 02-20-2014, 12:10 AM   #85
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Default Re: All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion - - Part 37

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I'm not saying it was hated. I just don't remember:

A: people talking about that film like they talk about TDK

B: people talking about that film like they talk about Spiderman 2

C: that particular film becoming the star making pop culture darling the likes of say, Ironman 1.

At the time. I just didn't see it.
The crappy action coverage didn't help.
A. How many times have you seen people talk about any film the way they talked about TDK?

B. Back then, there were fans saying that BB was the best modern comic book movie, surpassing Spider-Man 2. I certainly agreed with that sentiment.

C. I don't think anyone said that it was a pop culture event. However, I'm sure many people credit BB's sucesss to bring a dead franchise back for the many reboots we have seen in the past couple of years.

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Old 02-20-2014, 12:25 AM   #86
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Default Re: All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion - - Part 37

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Jamie Bell rumored as The Thing????
Bradley Cooper as a Raccoon...

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Old 02-20-2014, 12:29 AM   #87
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Default Re: All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion - - Part 37

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A. How many times have you seen people talk about any film the way they talked about TDK?

B. Back then, there were fans saying that BB was the best modern comic book movie, surpassing Spider-Man 2. I certainly agreed with that sentiment.

C. I don't think anyone said that it was a pop culture event. However, I'm sure many people credit BB's sucesss to bring a dead franchise back for the many reboots we have seen in the past couple of years.
A. I don't hear many people talk about either BB or TDKR the way the do TDK. For good reason imo.

B. I don't remember that. I find myself curious how many 'official' lists would go so far as to make such a claim personally.

C. Getting credit for bringing a dead franchise back is about right. Looks like WB did it again.

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Old 02-20-2014, 12:29 AM   #88
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Default Re: All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion - - Part 37

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Bradley Cooper as a Raccoon...
That is not the same thing at all.

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Old 02-20-2014, 12:31 AM   #89
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Default Re: All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion - - Part 37

VOICING a raccoon....

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Old 02-20-2014, 12:33 AM   #90
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Default Re: All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion - - Part 37

Don't knock the raccoon.

Apparently, the raccoon is proof that Marvel is beating DC in some kind of squabble.

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Old 02-20-2014, 12:36 AM   #91
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Default Re: All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion - - Part 37

They are beating DC and the raccoon is proof.

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Old 02-20-2014, 12:44 AM   #92
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Default Re: All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion - - Part 37

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A. I don't hear many people talk about either BB or TDKR the way the do TDK. For good reason imo.
It wasn't a huge hit in theaters like Spider-Man, but the fans and people whot actually saw it loved the heck out of it. It had great DVD sales. There was no split between BB lovers and BB haters like you have with MOS. The biggest source of tension was between the "Burtonites" and the emerging "Nolanites".

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B. I don't remember that. I find myself curious how many 'official' lists would go so far as to make such a claim personally.
Of course you don't remember that, since BB is only loved because of TDK...Yeah, no. And what's an "official" list, may I ask?

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C. Getting credit for bringing a dead franchise back is about right. Looks like WB did it again.
Just not as well as the first time. But yes.

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Old 02-20-2014, 12:45 AM   #93
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Default Re: All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion - - Part 37

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They are beating DC and the raccoon is proof.
Supergirl had a movie before Spider-Man????!!!!

We've been over this.

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Old 02-20-2014, 12:53 AM   #94
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Default Re: All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion - - Part 37

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That is not the same thing at all.
Voice and motion capture. What's so different.

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Old 02-20-2014, 01:10 AM   #95
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Default Re: All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion - - Part 37

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Voice and motion capture. What's so different.
Touch'e

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Old 02-20-2014, 01:11 AM   #96
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Default Re: All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion - - Part 37

Wow guys I thought you'dhave eaten up my Justice League Ten Questions thread:

The Ten Justice League Questions thread:

http://forums.superherohype.com/show...9#post27971909

Please post your answers, and if you haven't already please post your answers in the old threads.

Past Ten Questions Threads:

Superman: http://forums.superherohype.com/show...=473761&page=2
Batman: http://forums.superherohype.com/show...=473791&page=2
Spider-Man: http://forums.superherohype.com/show...5#post27969795

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Old 02-20-2014, 01:16 AM   #97
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Wow guys I thought you'dhave eaten up my Justice League Ten Questions thread:

The Ten Justice League Questions thread:

http://forums.superherohype.com/show...9#post27971909

Please post your answers, and if you haven't already please post your answers in the old threads.

Past Ten Questions Threads:

Superman: http://forums.superherohype.com/show...=473761&page=2
Batman: http://forums.superherohype.com/show...=473791&page=2
Spider-Man: http://forums.superherohype.com/show...5#post27969795
Bring em on, they are awesome. Good job

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Old 02-20-2014, 01:38 AM   #98
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Default Re: All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion - - Part 37

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It wasn't a huge hit in theaters like Spider-Man, but the fans and people whot actually saw it loved the heck out of it. It had great DVD sales. There was no split between BB lovers and BB haters like you have with MOS. The biggest source of tension was between the "Burtonites" and the emerging "Nolanites".



Of course you don't remember that, since BB is only loved because of TDK...Yeah, no. And what's an "official" list, may I ask?



Just not as well as the first time. But yes.
I think people loved TDK, Begins, simply found little detraction.
Just cause there was no split in the fan base, doesn't mean it was loved, means it was more universally accepted.

Yea, I don't remember some consensus from the general fan community putting that film above Spidey2. As for back then, fans saying BB was the greatest....fans say that today about MOS. Can't speak for everyone though, people will say what they say.

My point was simply, had Begins been the first and last of the nolan lot to be produced, it wouldn't be as touted as it is after the the trilogy, in my opinion. Fans would have their opinion(non unanimous), and the GA, clearly not as interested in it as it's sequel would have no doubt continued with their mixed indifference, thus I don't consider it loved. I consider it's sequel as such, I consider the matrix as such, begins I consider well received. As for dvd sales, I find myself curious how the sales were affected TDK and it's build up...which speaks to my point.

As for "official lists" I'm speaking mostly of publications. Such as the 'wizard magazine' and to a lesser degree, popular sites with high readership. A step removed from some forum poll. I've seen a few of these and I've yet to see one put Begins ahead of Spidey two. But hey times a changing.

IGN's 2011 update for instance

They tend to fall that way. Unfortunately I don't remember reading any lists around 2006, would be insightful to the particular point.
IGN is fickle though, they also celebrate MOS like no other.

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Old 02-20-2014, 02:33 AM   #99
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Default Re: All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion - - Part 37

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Supergirl had a movie before Spider-Man????!!!!

We've been over this.
Yeah, but that was the previous generation. When all we thought we could get was Superman and maybe Batman movies and Marvel didn't have their act together. I'd love for Laura Vandervoort to show up in Bats/ Supes but it just is not going to happen.

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Old 02-20-2014, 03:25 AM   #100
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Default Re: All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion - - Part 37

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The way some people over-analyse Man of Steel is quite a sight to behold. I wonder if they apply the same standards to other comic book movies?

Short answer: No.

Long answer: No.

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