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View Poll Results: BTAS Batman or Nolan Batman
BTAS Batman 67 81.71%
Nolan Batman 15 18.29%
Voters: 82. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 03-05-2014, 05:15 PM   #176
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Default Re: BTAS Batman or Nolanverse Batman?

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His cape can.
Nope. For one thing, the glider is designed to carry one person and the weight of an extra person would have an effect on its effectiveness. Secondly, a glider is not a parachute. When Batman opens his cape air moves across the wing and generates lift. When a skydiver opens their parachute it creates drag that slows their fall. Fourthly, when the cape opens the wings are pulled upward by the wind. Think back to when you were a kid. You grab the big umbrella and jump off something high. For a second you hang in the air, then the umbrella inverts and you plummet because it is no longer generating drag. Thats whats happening here.

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Iīve never said the movies were realistic. Iīve said the contrary, actually.

And itīs called science fiction. A man riding a rocket christmas tree and not dying is called absurdity. Thereīs a difference.


You're trolling right?


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Old 03-05-2014, 05:22 PM   #177
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Nope. For one thing, the glider is designed to carry one person and the weight of an extra person would have an effect on its effectiveness.
Youīre just making things up. The movie never states how much weight it can handle.

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Secondly, a glider is not a parachute. When Batman opens his cape air moves across the wing and generates lift.
Who are you to say that? People have survived falling from HUGE buildings, without capes or parachutes, and all due to the effect of the wind that slows them down, and youīre telling me that the same canīt happen in a fantasy movie where a man wears a cape with that purpose in mind? The cape can clearly damp a fall. Itīs showed also in Batman Begins. Itīs a piece of tech thatīs supposed to react that way.

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Old 03-05-2014, 05:27 PM   #178
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Default Re: BTAS Batman or Nolanverse Batman?

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Youīre just making things up. The movie never states how much weight it can handle.
Unrealistic to the core, period.



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Who are you to say that? People have survived falling from HUGE buildings, without capes or parachutes, and all due to the effect of the wind that slows them down, and youīre telling me that the same canīt happen in a fantasy movie where a man wears a cape with that purpose in mind? The cape can clearly damp a fall. Itīs showed also in Batman Begins. Itīs a piece of tech thatīs supposed to react that way.
Tell that to the people who fell from the World Trade Center in 9/11, or this guy
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NI3HctaXdZA

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youīre telling me that the same canīt happen in a fantasy movie where a man wears a cape with that purpose in mind?
Exactly, it's pure fantasy. So why can't you except that in a CARTOON(even more fantasy) that the Joker can fly a christmas tree-rocket?? In a universe of aliens, shapeshifting demons, a Bat-costume wearing rich bloke with every gadget in the world in a small belt and a guy who's immortal via magic pits and THAT puzzles you?


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Old 03-05-2014, 05:40 PM   #179
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Unrealistic to the core, period.
Of course itīs unrealistic. But itīs faithful to that universeīs pre-established rules. And those rules tell us that Bruce as access to technology that doesnīt exist in our world.

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Tell that to the people who fell from the World Trade Center in 9/11.
Youīre purposely misinterpretating what i said.

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Exactly, it's pure fantasy. So why can't you except that in CARTOON(even more fantasy) that the Joker can fly a christmas tree-rocket?? In a universe of aliens, shapeshifting demons and a guy who's immortal via magic pits and THAT puzzles you?
Because it goes against the rules of that world. In that world humans are still mortal. They donīt have super powers. Thatīs why Batman saves them. Why should Joker be able to do something like that? Thatīs fantasy, but itīs a bad form of fantasy. A contraditory one. You can make fantasy without being illogical.

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Old 03-05-2014, 05:42 PM   #180
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Default Re: BTAS Batman or Nolanverse Batman?

You never told us why you considered a rocket to be less plausible than Clayface. Our did I miss that?

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Old 03-05-2014, 05:50 PM   #181
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You never told us why you considered a rocket to be less plausible than Clayface. Our did I miss that?
In that universe clayface is more plausible than the scene with the rocket, because clayface doesnīt violate any pre-established rules. At any point in the show weīre led to believe that a human canīt suffer a mutation and gain supernatural abilities. Thatīs actually a big part of the show. But weīre led to believe that a human is still a human and can be easily hurt.

Anyway, i couldnīt care less about Clayface. He is just one more reason why the show fails to be better than the Nolanuniverse for me.

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Old 03-05-2014, 05:56 PM   #182
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Default Re: BTAS Batman or Nolanverse Batman?

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Are you suggesting that, if something is surreal, it cannot be well written?

I would call that specific example more cartoonish than surreal. It works in BTAS because it is a cartoon, so cartoonish events can happen and still serve a story that aims to be more ambitious or substantive than other cartoons. On film, it could work in a surrealist way. But if approached in the tone of TAS, it would be conceived as cartoonish in live-action, and in that sense our mutant friend is right, it would be perceived as a negative in a Batman movie (rightfully so).

What I would say this long conversation boils down to is one poster prefers cinema as a medium to children's animation, while many posters have no issue of valuing a cartoon show meant for a younger audience (and up) as a serious, substantive creation. If you find the medium as lesser than film, then yes, I can see why Nolan making a cinematically brilliant adaptation of the character will be preferable for that opinion.

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Old 03-05-2014, 05:57 PM   #183
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Anyway, i couldnīt care less about Clayface. He is just one more reason why the show fails to be better than the Nolanuniverse for me.
Why?

Clayface/Matt Hagen is more compelling than any of the villains in any of the films in my opinion. Feat of Clay? Mudslide? Sad, sad stuff. Everything from the title card to the actual story is fantastic, not to mention his monstrous and sympathetic music theme.



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Old 03-05-2014, 06:17 PM   #184
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Default Re: BTAS Batman or Nolanverse Batman?

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I would call that specific example more cartoonish than surreal. It works in BTAS because it is a cartoon, so cartoonish events can happen and still serve a story that aims to be more ambitious or substantive than other cartoons. On film, it could work in a surrealist way. But if approached in the tone of TAS, it would be conceived as cartoonish in live-action, and in that sense our mutant friend is right, it would be perceived as a negative in a Batman movie (rightfully so).
Cartoons frequently are surreal, and surrealism is often cartoonish. You seem to be substituting terms merely because you feel that one is slightly more pejorative.

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What I would say this long conversation boils down to is one poster prefers cinema as a medium to children's animation, while many posters have no issue of valuing a cartoon show meant for a younger audience (and up) as a serious, substantive creation. If you find the medium as lesser than film, then yes, I can see why Nolan making a cinematically brilliant adaptation of the character will be preferable for that opinion.
If that's the case, then all the disingenuous pronouncements about "bad writing" should be discarded in favour of a simple statement that the poster prefers watching movies and doesn't value animation.

I expect that statement hasn't yet appeared because it is rather stupid.

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Old 03-05-2014, 06:46 PM   #185
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Default Re: BTAS Batman or Nolanverse Batman?

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Thatīs fantasy, but itīs a bad form of fantasy. A contraditory one. You can make fantasy without being illogical.
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In that universe clayface is more plausible than the scene with the rocket, because clayface doesnīt violate any pre-established rules. At any point in the show weīre led to believe that a human canīt suffer a mutation and gain supernatural abilities. Thatīs actually a big part of the show. But weīre led to believe that a human is still a human and can be easily hurt.
Then explain the load of crap humans like Batman withstand and survive all the time? like being shot and stabbed and hit by super-humans. Not only does all that stuff not kill him, but it usually doesn't even put him in a hospital bed.

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Anyway, i couldnīt care less about Clayface. He is just one more reason why the show fails to be better than the Nolanuniverse for me.
That and your love and adoration for the Nolan movies in general. I have nothing against the Nolan films and I like them(except the third one) but to true comicbook Batman fans like myself, it was definitely not better than BTAS. It wasn't as Batman-y as TAS and the DCAU Batman as a whole. You expect me to believe that the Nolanverse with it's throat infection-voiced Batman, Sean Connery-Bane, nerfed version of Scarecrow and sorry excuse for Talia are better than BTAS? no way


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Old 03-05-2014, 07:38 PM   #186
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Cartoons frequently are surreal, and surrealism is often cartoonish. You seem to be substituting terms merely because you feel that one is slightly more pejorative.
And you tend to be conflating the abstract with application. In general (yes a generalization), the term "cartoon," applies a certain type of simplified (or clean) logic found in American animation shorts that while arguably surreal, features a clarity and approachability that even a child can understand with perfect ease. To conflate it with the surrealism of a Dali painting or, let's just say, a Bergman film is not apt. Because if a live-action film presented the image in question (the Joker riding a rocket powered Christmas tree out of Arkham) in the same tonal and narrative context that TAS did, it would indeed be met with a negative reaction by critics, general audiences, and even fans. Why because that flavor of "surrealism" is too close to naturalism and logic for it to work in live-action, at least for those who want to treat the material "seriously (another big word to throw around). It would either have to find another tact to envisioning the character's escape and aptitude for danger (as Nolan did in TDK) or go further into the world of the "surreal" (which you seem to be suggesting). See the Tim Burton Batman movies as examples of the latter.

Now, if you're saying that we could have a truly "surrealist" Batman film? That would be interesting, but WB would never green light such a venture. However, TAS may be "surreal" in the literal definition of the word, but if that sequence was transferred to live-action in the exact same manner, it would not be consumed or understood the same way due to medium differences. And if someone does not like the differences in one medium, say an American afternoon cartoon show, then yes, their argument is understandable, though I personally do not agree with it.

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If that's the case, then all the disingenuous pronouncements about "bad writing" should be discarded in favour of a simple statement that the poster prefers watching movies and doesn't value animation.
That feels like the elephant in the room this conversation is circling.

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Old 03-05-2014, 11:41 PM   #187
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Then explain the load of crap humans like Batman withstand and survive all the time? like being shot and stabbed and hit by super-humans. Not only does all that stuff not kill him, but it usually doesn't even put him in a hospital bed.
Then why does he need to save people from train crashes, explosions and rocks falling on top of them? If humans can survive a rocket without a scratch, i donīt think they need Batman at all.

To me, Batman being almost immune to physical damage is another example of lazy writing. But thatīs a problem we see in almost every medium outside movies. But, hey, at least Batman is a physically gifted man who wears a suit that offers him a good deal of protection, hence him being able to endure more than a regular person. For The Joker i canīt find any sort of excuse. But iīm not really sure if in the show Batman has done anything as suicidal as riding a rocket.

You simply pointed out another problem with the cartoon. Another reason why itīs not as flawless as many like to believe.

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Old 03-06-2014, 06:19 AM   #188
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Then why does he need to save people from train crashes, explosions and rocks falling on top of them? If humans can survive a rocket without a scratch, i donīt think they need Batman at all.

To me, Batman being almost immune to physical damage is another example of lazy writing. But thatīs a problem we see in almost every medium outside movies. But, hey, at least Batman is a physically gifted man who wears a suit that offers him a good deal of protection, hence him being able to endure more than a regular person. For The Joker i canīt find any sort of excuse. But iīm not really sure if in the show Batman has done anything as suicidal as riding a rocket.

You simply pointed out another problem with the cartoon. Another reason why itīs not as flawless as many like to believe.
Joker survives near-death experiences all the time!! Like in the ending to "Mad Love" and the ending of "World's Finest".


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not really sure if in the show Batman has done anything as suicidal as riding a rocket.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CDMvMo6H3zk

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Old 03-06-2014, 08:14 AM   #189
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Default Re: BTAS Batman or Nolanverse Batman?

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Joker survives near-death experiences all the time!! Like in the ending to "Mad Love" and the ending of "World's Finest".
Or the ending to 'The Laughing Fish'.

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Old 03-06-2014, 09:05 AM   #190
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Default Re: BTAS Batman or Nolanverse Batman?

I wish Mutante would just stop typing.

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Old 03-06-2014, 09:49 AM   #191
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Default Re: BTAS Batman or Nolanverse Batman?

For me BTAS is slightly above Nolans Batman, but they're not to far off from being rated very closely.

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Old 03-06-2014, 10:02 AM   #192
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For me BTAS is slightly above Nolans Batman, but they're not to far off from being rated very closely.
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Old 03-06-2014, 10:20 AM   #193
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Joker survives near-death experiences all the time!! Like in the ending to "Mad Love" and the ending of "World's Finest".
Thatīs my point.

I donīt have that many problems with the show. The only reason iīm having this conversation is because many people talk about it like if it was perfect, when it isnīt. In a forum where people ***** about plot holes and goofy scenes all the time, iīd imagine that a show with so much non sense and incoherences wouldnīt be considered so above everything else.

If you wanna compare BTAS with the Nolanverse we have to be equally critical of both, and since so many people have so many complains about the Nolanverse, i guess itīs ok to have a few of my own about BTAS.

Unless we establish that BTAS, because itīs a cartoon, is allowed to do anything without receiving criticism. If thatīs the case, then this isnīt a fair comparison and this poll shouldnīt exist.

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Old 03-06-2014, 10:44 AM   #194
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Yes, the Christmas tree rocket... good writing, bad writing. Thing is that it was the kind of thing you'd find in the 1966 series (or the 60's cartoons). It was a little odd, but not too off for a cartoon.

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Old 03-06-2014, 10:56 AM   #195
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kind of thing you'd find in the 1966 series (or the 60's cartoons). It was a little odd, but not too off for a cartoon.
BTAS isnīt that different from the 1966 show and other cartoons that didnīt receive the same kind of acclamation. It just has a darker tone and a better score.

Even if you watch The Batman and Beware The Batman, wich most people donīt really care too much about, theyīre not that far away from BTAS. Last night i watched an episode of each three and the biggest difference is still the fact that BTAS has a darker tone. In terms of storytelling and characters, theyīre close. BTAS can be a little bit more dramatic from time to time, but thatīs about it.

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Old 03-06-2014, 12:35 PM   #196
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In a forum where people ***** about plot holes and goofy scenes all the time, iīd imagine that a show with so much non sense and incoherences wouldnīt be considered so above everything else
But they're not goofs/plotholes, Joker's supposed to have that cheating-death gimic all throughout the DCAU (Batman Beyond: Return of the Joker for example). The guy cheats death more times than Ra's

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BTAS isnīt that different from the 1966 show and other cartoons that didnīt receive the same kind of acclamation. It just has a darker tone and a better score.

Even if you watch The Batman and Beware The Batman, wich most people donīt really care too much about, theyīre not that far away from BTAS. Last night i watched an episode of each three and the biggest difference is still the fact that BTAS has a darker tone. In terms of storytelling and characters, theyīre close. BTAS can be a little bit more dramatic from time to time, but thatīs about it.
So then we know that they (BTAS and Nolanverse) take influence from already established interpretations of the character. What you can't handle (Joker riding a rocket tree) is not a stretch of what the character has already done in the past. Is it more ridiculous than him not dying from whiplash when Batman caught him with his grapple line in TDK?


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Old 03-06-2014, 01:19 PM   #197
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I wish Mutante would just stop typing.
The world would be so much better off.

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Old 03-06-2014, 01:27 PM   #198
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But they're not goofs/plotholes, Joker's supposed to have that cheating-death gimic all throughout the DCAU (Batman Beyond: Return of the Joker for example). The guy cheats death more times than Ra's
Just because it happens many times doesnīt make it less stupid. Weīre comparing a cartoon to a movie, right? So the cartoon should be subjected to the same kind of criticism, otherwise, whatīs the point?

People complain about the excess of conveniences, leaps of logic and poorly explained events in movies. Well, BTAS has all that in triple. If such a thing is considered a bad thing in film, it should also be considered a bad thing in a cartoon like this too. We are, after all, comparing the two, right?

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Is it more ridiculous than him not dying from whiplash when Batman caught him with his grapple line in TDK?
Yes, much more ridiculous. And itīs even more ridiculous if you consider the fact that he escaped without a scratch. And if you think the two come even close to be comparable, youīre so blindly biased that i donīt think we should continue this discussion.

Joker not dying in TDK is simply a convenience that doesnīt violate any unchallengeable
rule. Of course, a person could die from a situation like that. But can we be 100% sure of that? No, we canīt. Itīs one of those things that can either go wrong or bad.

But how does a man grabs himself to a rocket christmas tree and confortably flyes to wherever he wants, breaking through the roof, without falling, being seriously injured or dying right away? I donīt think thatīs physically or humanly possible.

I honestly would like to see something like this happening in a Batman movie, just to see how many people would consider it great.

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Old 03-06-2014, 01:30 PM   #199
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If the Nicholson Joker or Ledger Joker jumped on a rocket Christmas tree and rocketed through the ceiling in a huge getaway, I'd stand up and applause.

Not to mention there would be many great gifs to come out of it.

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Old 03-06-2014, 01:31 PM   #200
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I would replay that part over and over because of how amazing it would be.

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