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Old 03-29-2014, 04:41 AM   #251
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Default Re: The Wonder Woman Costume Thread - Part 6

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Minor question about WW's costume. Which symbol do you guys think that she'll wear, the eagle or the double W's?
For Wonder Woman's "origin" appearance - the eagle!

Once Wonder Woman wears a "superhero" version of her origin armour/costume in Justice League, then I would like to see the "WW" introduced so that the "WW" stands equally along with the "S" and the "Bat". I don't mind some of the combination eagle/WW symbols, like the one in JL: Trapped in Time".

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Old 03-29-2014, 07:07 AM   #252
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Default Re: The Wonder Woman Costume Thread - Part 6

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This whole redesigning her costume is just plan getting tiring, that's where Im going with this. The funniest part of the whole thing is that anyone who wants her in her comic accurate costume is met with ridicule by many posters here.
Ive said it before and Ill say it again if written well and portrayed as a strong woman she should be able to wear anything! Even a onesie.
What is there to be gained from having her in a bathing suit besides being faithful to comic interpretations, what does it add to the character?

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Considering you basically told her to get used to crappy responses and that she has an "issue", yeah I can understand how she could interpret that as a pretty rude tone. No need to respond in that way, even considering the fact that this is a discussion forum. Besides, your ignoring legitimate grievances on Mrs.Kent's end. I've been saying this forever, but just because something has been "tradition" doesn't mean it should not be subject to change. There's a reason why a large group feels somewhat uncomfortable by the comic depictions of WW and female characters in general.
This. You can't tell somebody to "get used to crappy responses" because [personal reasons]. And then follow it up with "Lighten up". Lrn2logic.

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She took "offense" after I clearly stated no offense intended. That's now being put back on be because she decided to take offense anyway?
Yeah, that makes sense...

The bolded part, go over to the Fantastic Four boards and say that same sentence.

If people are uncomfortable with their depictions that is 100% their right.
Doesn't mean that over 50 years of comic portrayals of them are wrong though.
Oh ok. So as long as something is preceded by "No offense" it's the other person's fault if something bothers them?

Sweet. No offense, but your fanboy arguments trying to justify certain costumes comes off as immature and makes you seem like a tool, and you should get used to "crappy responses" when you begin with "crappy premises". No offense tho

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Old 03-29-2014, 07:20 AM   #253
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Default Re: The Wonder Woman Costume Thread - Part 6

Will you stop the squabbling? Green and some like him clearly believe the premise they have repeatedly advanced; that WW's disregard for modern society's norms of dress and decency feeds into her status as a symbol of empowerment etc.

You clearly don't buy that, and I don't think it is a particularly strong argument. But that doesn't make them "fanboys" or "immature" any more than it does you or I.

Let's just agree to disagree.

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Old 03-29-2014, 07:22 AM   #254
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Default Re: The Wonder Woman Costume Thread - Part 6

^ Exactly. I think of WW not as a conformist, but an individualist. But at the same time, I also think she should be presentable among the male heroes.

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Old 03-29-2014, 07:24 AM   #255
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Default Re: The Wonder Woman Costume Thread - Part 6

Given Snyder's feminist sensibilities, I'm willing to bet that WW won't be wearing a bathing suit unless it's just for a couple scenes.

Who is willing to place a friendly wager?

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Old 03-29-2014, 07:25 AM   #256
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Default Re: The Wonder Woman Costume Thread - Part 6

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Will you stop the squabbling? Green and some like him clearly believe the premise they have repeatedly advanced; that WW's disregard for modern society's norms of dress and decency feeds into her status as a symbol of empowerment etc.

You clearly don't buy that, and I don't think it is a particularly strong argument. But that doesn't make them "fanboys" or "immature" any more than it does you or I.

Let's just agree to disagree.
I wasn't being serious


I was illustrating the flaws in logic, I don't care about the content.

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Old 03-29-2014, 07:37 AM   #257
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Default Re: The Wonder Woman Costume Thread - Part 6

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Given Snyder's feminist sensibilities, I'm willing to bet that WW won't be wearing a bathing suit unless it's just for a couple scenes.

Who is willing to place a friendly wager?
One could argue that the cast of SuckerPunch was a lot more clothed than the warriors in 300.

But that's a POWEERRRRRRRRRRRRRRR fantasy!

Truthfully, if an army of athletic/muscular women in bikinis fought, he'd be accused to bringing to life a sex fantasy.

One can't have it both ways. To act like a male ripped body is powerful and a female's is sexy, I think undermines BOTH the physiques of hardworking men and women.

So a muscular guy isn't sexy? So a strong woman isn't powerful?

To me, they all intertwine. An attractive woman will generally be thought of as sexy by men, and a likeable (and often attractive) guy will be thought of as sexy by women.

It isn't discriminatory, it's just human nature.

That being said, I don't like the idea of a fully clothed Batman and Superman and WW in beachwear.

If she has a "onepiece scene" as a tribute, I wouldn't be offended. Just as long as it's not stretched out over the running time.

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Old 03-29-2014, 07:53 AM   #258
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Default Re: The Wonder Woman Costume Thread - Part 6

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One could argue that the cast of SuckerPunch was a lot more clothed than the warriors in 300.

But that's a POWEERRRRRRRRRRRRRRR fantasy!

Truthfully, if an army of athletic/muscular women in bikinis fought, he'd be accused to bringing to life a sex fantasy.

One can't have it both ways. To act like a male ripped body is powerful and a female's is sexy, I think undermines BOTH the physiques of hardworking men and women.

So a muscular guy isn't sexy? So a strong woman isn't powerful?

To me, they all intertwine. An attractive woman will generally be thought of as sexy by men, and a likeable (and often attractive) guy will be thought of as sexy by women.

It isn't discriminatory, it's just human nature.

That being said, I don't like the idea of a fully clothed Batman and Superman and WW in beachwear.

If she has a "onepiece scene" as a tribute, I wouldn't be offended. Just as long as it's not stretched out over the running time.
The cast of Sucker Punch wore sexy clothes because sex was part of the plot of the movie. The women were being abused in a mental institution, so they switched to imagining it as being a brothel where they had more control over their fate as a coping mechanism. A prostitute can theoretically establish her own rules of engagement, and is as such several steps up from a rape victim. They then shift on three or four occasions to an even greater dream state, "a dream within a dream", as a further coping mechanism, where they wear even more revealing clothes because that is how women are dressed in anime/scifi, it's kind of like cosplay outfits. It's not a pure power fantasy as they don't have complete control over their situations, they have coping mechanisms, as manifested in the climax of the movie. All of this is in turn a social commentary on geek fandom and its use of power fantasies to cope with the failings in our own collective lives.

That context doesn't really apply to wonder woman. She's not being written into a position of weakness, but a position go strength. She doesn't need to dream of a different as a coping mechanism, she can affect a different world due to her own powers as an Amazonian Goddess.

A better context-relevant indication would be how Lois Lane was dressed in Man of Steel.

Notice three things about what she's wearing:
1) It's what an ambitious and professional reporter might wear;
2) She's not sexed-up;
3) It's black and white, which matches the colour scheme of the movie (less important);


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Old 03-29-2014, 07:55 AM   #259
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Default Re: The Wonder Woman Costume Thread - Part 6

^ Doesn't count, it's a Nolan produced movie.


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Old 03-29-2014, 08:01 AM   #260
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Default Re: The Wonder Woman Costume Thread - Part 6

Not quite sure what analogy you're drawing with the last part. WW is an Amazon warrior/ambassador. There is considerably more leeway for costume design with that premise than there is for someone that works in an office.

Personally, I still favour WW showing some skin, but that's mostly because I think it's consistent with the Hellenic cultural typology, which I think it a very strong one that would look magnificent when re-imagined for a superhero/fantasy film.

The alternative, I think, is to go for a costume that drapes and flows, similar to how Britannia is commonly depicted. But that offends against practicality and it departs further from her comicbook appearance than is really necessary.

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Old 03-29-2014, 09:42 AM   #261
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Default Re: The Wonder Woman Costume Thread - Part 6

I'm for the iconic / Chiang version of the suit. I'm not against having varieties.

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Old 03-29-2014, 09:49 AM   #262
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What is there to be gained from having her in a bathing suit besides being faithful to comic interpretations, what does it add to the character?



This. You can't tell somebody to "get used to crappy responses" because [personal reasons]. And then follow it up with "Lighten up". Lrn2logic.



Oh ok. So as long as something is preceded by "No offense" it's the other person's fault if something bothers them?

Sweet. No offense, but your fanboy arguments trying to justify certain costumes comes off as immature and makes you seem like a tool, and you should get used to "crappy responses" when you begin with "crappy premises". No offense tho

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Old 03-29-2014, 10:04 AM   #263
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Default Re: The Wonder Woman Costume Thread - Part 6

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What is there to be gained from having her in a bathing suit besides being faithful to comic interpretations, what does it add to the character?
Her visibly recognizable iconic status that the general public knows.


Quote:
This. You can't tell somebody to "get used to crappy responses" because [personal reasons]. And then follow it up with "Lighten up". Lrn2logic.


Oh ok. So as long as something is preceded by "No offense" it's the other person's fault if something bothers them?

Sweet. No offense, but your fanboy arguments trying to justify certain costumes comes off as immature and makes you seem like a tool, and you should get used to "crappy responses" when you begin with "crappy premises". No offense tho
Please don't tell me what I can or cannot do and I'll kindly do the same for you.
It's an internet message board, I don't take offense when someone tells me not to.
I also don't go around calling people immature and a tool. I won't even get into the fanboy part, seeing as anyone on this board is basically a fanboy, that includes you buddy. But I won't take offense from the insults.

Quote:
"a tiny swimsuit/corset monstrosity"
This is the comment I had an issue with. That and something about an angel getting it's wings every time a female heroes costume is changed. I find it to be a slap in the face to every comic book artist who has drawn WW in her classic costume. I also find it a tad insulting to any of the fans who want her in that costume. It's an opinion I don't agree with at all and I gave a crappy response because of it. My response was not meant to offend and apparently it has.
I'll leave this at this for the sake of everyone in this thread that wants a shiny happy place to pass cookies around in.

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Old 03-29-2014, 11:35 AM   #264
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Default Re: The Wonder Woman Costume Thread - Part 6

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Originally Posted by TheFlamingCoco View Post
One could argue that the cast of SuckerPunch was a lot more clothed than the warriors in 300.

But that's a POWEERRRRRRRRRRRRRRR fantasy!

Truthfully, if an army of athletic/muscular women in bikinis fought, he'd be accused to bringing to life a sex fantasy.

One can't have it both ways. To act like a male ripped body is powerful and a female's is sexy, I think undermines BOTH the physiques of hardworking men and women.

So a muscular guy isn't sexy? So a strong woman isn't powerful?

To me, they all intertwine. An attractive woman will generally be thought of as sexy by men, and a likeable (and often attractive) guy will be thought of as sexy by women.

It isn't discriminatory, it's just human nature.

That being said, I don't like the idea of a fully clothed Batman and Superman and WW in beachwear.

If she has a "onepiece scene" as a tribute, I wouldn't be offended. Just as long as it's not stretched out over the running time.

Coco, you mock the term "power fantasy" but I don't think you're using it right.

The term applies in certain works (often comics) that are targeted towards men. You can tell these works are targeted towards men because some artists say they are or because they multiple things that appear to pander to that audience. There are certain comics that feature women that barely have personalities, but wear tiny clothes to cover their hugely exaggerated bodies. They probably have limited function in the story. Clearly, female readers aren't supposed to identify with them. The males in the story have character functions, but are also exaggerated in physique. This is where you'd use the term. Someone might try to say "well, look at the men! They're huge and muscular and wear tight suits!" in response to accusations of sexism. Those folks would be wrong in that case. Sometimes when a work panders to one group, certain things are emphasized. In this case, the creator made the men they think the target audience would identify with and want to be and the women the audience would want to have sex with. It's a power fantasy. The reader gets to image being this hulking, dominating male who has access to all these sexy females. Both are gender stereotypes that arose from patriarchy. Of course, this doesn't mean all men want a story like this and that all stories fit this.

You also have to consider the history of sexism. The wounds are still fresh. We've just started getting a decent number of well-written women and there's still a lot of sexist portrayals. Male characters are usually allowed to be characters and not sex objects. Over-sexualization of men has rarely been an issue and doesn't constantly undermine male characters/turn them into jokes. So, of course people won't have as much of a reaction to that. Either way, sexualized male images do exist, but they do not mean it's ok to sexualize females in situations that's don't make sense. It's just another excuse. I don't think any character should be obnoxiously sexualized or given a costume that doesn't make sense.

Zack Snyder is someone who loves a powerful male image. He's featured them prominently in 300 and Mos. In the case of 300, i do think that movie was largely targeted at men. That's the important think to consider. Therefore, the term could apply, but I have never really used it in reference to that movie because it only semi-fits. I don't think Snyder was trying to sexualize the men because the target audience doesn't want to see that; I think it was about them looking powerful. But...the one female in that movie was written well and wasn't a sex object. Snyder showed us powerful men and a strong woman. So, it's not a classic example of male power fantasy combined with a sexist female portrayal. The same is true for mos. The women are written at least as well as the men. Snyder even said he gave Cavill a shirtless scene to show that his physique is real. He talks about it in the mos bonus footage. His superman looks powerful, but has some vulnerabilities. I do think that somewhere along the line, the mos team realized cavill is marketable to women and hence the "he's kinda hot" line. If nothing else, I'm sure Snyder realized afterwards that mos had a decent amount of female fans. The women in mos were decent too, so it would appear all sexes were targeted. Zack Snyder is a curious example and doesn't purely fit the example of creators who participate in creating power fantasies. So, I'll say that he creates powerful male characters, but tries to pair them with well-written females.

Anyways, sorry for going off topic and I'll get back to WW's costume after this post. I'm not mad or anything. I just wanted to discuss that term because I think you were mocking it, but not quite using it right.

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Old 03-29-2014, 01:05 PM   #265
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Default Re: The Wonder Woman Costume Thread - Part 6

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Some kind of the first material of the suit will be awesome to see adapted on the suit.
Nice way to connect the straps with the top.


Yeah it all depends on the material. Id prefer some nice material over simple clothing to appear more of an amazon.


Agreed.

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Old 03-29-2014, 01:46 PM   #266
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Default Re: The Wonder Woman Costume Thread - Part 6

MrsKent, if you have opportunity to read the recent run of Dark Horse's Conan the Barbarian, I would be really interested to hear your reflections on it. The leading lady, Belit, it highly sexualised, but in a manner that I think you might agree is more empowering than objectifying.

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Old 03-29-2014, 01:52 PM   #267
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MrsKent, if you have opportunity to read the recent run of Dark Horse's Conan the Barbarian, I would be really interested to hear your reflections on it. The leading lady, Belit, it highly sexualised, but in a manner that I think you might agree is more empowering than objectifying.
I have not read it, but what you say about it intrigues me. I'll look into it and give my thoughts when I have some.

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Old 03-29-2014, 04:41 PM   #268
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Coco, you mock the term "power fantasy" but I don't think you're using it right.

The term applies in certain works (often comics) that are targeted towards men. You can tell these works are targeted towards men because some artists say they are or because they multiple things that appear to pander to that audience. There are certain comics that feature women that barely have personalities, but wear tiny clothes to cover their hugely exaggerated bodies. They probably have limited function in the story. Clearly, female readers aren't supposed to identify with them. (Depends on the story.)The males in the story have character functions, but are also exaggerated in physique. This is where you'd use the term. Someone might try to say "well, look at the men! They're huge and muscular and wear tight suits!" in response to accusations of sexism. Those folks would be wrong in that case. Sometimes when a work panders to one group, certain things are emphasized. In this case, the creator made the men they think the target audience would identify with and want to be and the women the audience would want to have sex with. It's a power fantasy. The reader gets to image being this hulking, dominating male who has access to all these sexy females. Both are gender stereotypes that arose from patriarchy. Of course, this doesn't mean all men want a story like this and that all stories fit this.

You also have to consider the history of sexism. The wounds are still fresh. We've just started getting a decent number of well-written women and there's still a lot of sexist portrayals. Male characters are usually allowed to be characters and not sex objects. Over-sexualization of men has rarely been an issue and doesn't constantly undermine male characters/turn them into jokes. So, of course people won't have as much of a reaction to that. Either way, sexualized male images do exist, but they do not mean it's ok to sexualize females in situations that's don't make sense. It's just another excuse. I don't think any character should be obnoxiously sexualized or given a costume that doesn't make sense. (Agreed)

Zack Snyder is someone who loves a powerful male image. He's featured them prominently in 300 and Mos. In the case of 300, i do think that movie was largely targeted at men. That's the important think to consider. Therefore, the term could apply, but I have never really used it in reference to that movie because it only semi-fits. I don't think Snyder was trying to sexualize the men because the target audience doesn't want to see that; I think it was about them looking powerful. But...the one female in that movie was written well and wasn't a sex object. Snyder showed us powerful men and a strong woman. So, it's not a classic example of male power fantasy combined with a sexist female portrayal. The same is true for mos. The women are written at least as well as the men. Snyder even said he gave Cavill a shirtless scene to show that his physique is real. He talks about it in the mos bonus footage. His superman looks powerful, but has some vulnerabilities. I do think that somewhere along the line, the mos team realized cavill is marketable to women and hence the "he's kinda hot" line. If nothing else, I'm sure Snyder realized afterwards that mos had a decent amount of female fans. The women in mos were decent too, so it would appear all sexes were targeted. Zack Snyder is a curious example and doesn't purely fit the example of creators who participate in creating power fantasies. So, I'll say that he creates powerful male characters, but tries to pair them with well-written females.
(This. Ana/Artemesia/Foara/and maybe Gorgo and Lois count.)
Anyways, sorry for going off topic and I'll get back to WW's costume after this post. I'm not mad or anything. I just wanted to discuss that term because I think you were mocking it, but not quite using it right.
A nice well-reasoned discussion. I do think that it's okay to question the motivations of a creator, however I also think that the audience reactions shouldn't necessarily infer the purpose of a completed work.

That is to say, if women don't feel empowered seeing powerful characters onscreen, maybe it's because they've been conditioned not to.

Likewise, if men feel weirded out seeing emotional male characters, maybe it's a sign of negative societal conditioning against such archetypes.

I think the costume should not say "lookatthishotgirl", but rather say "That's Wonder Woman!" There should be a sense of authority behind it, and if it takes pants, a skirt, or even shorts to accomplish that feeling, I'm okay with it.

But I do think that having the onepiece could create a slippery slope for other female characters. "Why can't PowerGirl have her outfit? Wonder Woman was allowed to have hers!"

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Old 03-29-2014, 04:50 PM   #269
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Artemisia made me worry about Wondie in a Snyder film.

As outstanding as she was prior the ending, when she went against the male hero she was utterly terrible.

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Old 03-29-2014, 05:01 PM   #270
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Default Re: The Wonder Woman Costume Thread - Part 6

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A nice well-reasoned discussion. I do think that it's okay to question the motivations of a creator, however I also think that the audience reactions shouldn't necessarily infer the purpose of a completed work.

That is to say, if women don't feel empowered seeing powerful characters onscreen, maybe it's because they've been conditioned not to.

Likewise, if men feel weirded out seeing emotional male characters, maybe it's a sign of negative societal conditioning against such archetypes.

I think the costume should not say "lookatthishotgirl", but rather say "That's Wonder Woman!" There should be a sense of authority behind it, and if it takes pants, a skirt, or even shorts to accomplish that feeling, I'm okay with it.

But I do think that having the onepiece could create a slippery slope for other female characters. "Why can't PowerGirl have her outfit? Wonder Woman was allowed to have hers!"
Her costume should fit the situation. Any character's costume should fit the situation. If a movie was being made about an exotic dancer and showed her in tiny outfits at her job, I wouldn't say it's wrong. WW is a superhero with Hellenic inspiration, therefore, I think a battleskirt is appropriate. It shows some skin and some might still consider putting her in a skirt sexist. I don't agree because it makes sense considering her origins. That's my whole issue with the panties. They don't make sense unless she's at the beach. It would create a slippery slope indeed because too many female characters dress that way. It's not like it's just catwoman (who I agree is a sensual character), it's all of them. It's not a good sign. It means there's an gender imbalance with the costuming.

And this is kind of off topic but related to what you said about emotional male characters: Snyder doesn't make his powerful males conform to tropes about how men don't/shouldn't cry either. I loved the scene where supes was comforted by Lois after Zod's death. He went against the stereotype of the masculine norm and it was great. I think he had a warrior in 300 cry when his son was killed too. Snyder is a curious case, indeed.

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Old 03-29-2014, 11:11 PM   #271
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Old 03-29-2014, 11:23 PM   #272
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^ Cool. That's a nice costume and interesting art style.

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Old 03-29-2014, 11:23 PM   #273
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For those who think revealing outfits are more "empowering" than "objectifying", I have to ask a question, does such a costume fulfill these requirements -

1 . Wonder Woman is looked upon by many as a "role model" in same way how Superman is, would a WW wearing skimpy costume earn people's respect and acceptability or would it lead to criticisms and dismissal of what the character stands for in the minds of general audience.

2. Is a costume that looks like a "bathing suit" practical for a female warrior ? Before anyone shows me the source material (comics) let me point out that this is a different medium and faithful translation is not needed. Look at the armored suits of Lady Sif, Artemisia (in movie - 300 rise of an empire), Xena (TV series)



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Old 03-29-2014, 11:35 PM   #274
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Default Re: The Wonder Woman Costume Thread - Part 6

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheFlamingCoco View Post

One can't have it both ways. To act like a male ripped body is powerful and a female's is sexy, I think undermines BOTH the physiques of hardworking men and women.

So a muscular guy isn't sexy? So a strong woman isn't powerful?

To me, they all intertwine. An attractive woman will generally be thought of as sexy by men, and a likeable (and often attractive) guy will be thought of as sexy by women.

It isn't discriminatory, it's just human nature.

That being said, I don't like the idea of a fully clothed Batman and Superman and WW in beachwear.

If she has a "onepiece scene" as a tribute, I wouldn't be offended. Just as long as it's not stretched out over the running time.
Agreed.

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Old 03-29-2014, 11:35 PM   #275
MrsKent26
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Default Re: The Wonder Woman Costume Thread - Part 6

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Originally Posted by Bruce_Begins View Post
For those who think revealing outfits are more "empowering" than "objectifying", I have to ask a question, does such a costume fulfill these requirements -

1 . Wonder Woman is looked upon by many as a "role model" in same way how Superman is, would a WW wearing skimpy costume earn people's respect and acceptability or would it lead to criticisms and dismissal of what the character stands for in the minds of general audience.

2. Is a costume that looks like a "bathing suit" practical for a female warrior ? Before anyone shows me the source material (comics) let me point out that this is a different medium and faithful translation is not needed. Look at the armored suits of Lady Sif, Artemisia (in movie - 300 rise of an empire), Xena (TV series)
I'm certainly not in the "skimpy outfits are empowering" crowd, but I'll answer the questions:

1) Yes, I think it would lead to some dismissal of her and jokes. No other female heroes are dressed like that in modern CBMs. It would stand out in unfortunate ways.

2) No, that costume is not practical for a warrior. It'd be great for sun-bathing though.

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