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Old 03-31-2014, 05:37 AM   #51
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Default Re: 1941-2016: 75 Years of Wonder Woman

So.... A Wonder Woman that is tied up regularly to have her power removed by men and women, that rides magical kangaroos, and is given pablum, Oprah-esque psycho-babble dialog about "love" and "submission" is what some think will be a successful formula for Wonder Woman in the 21st Century?

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Old 03-31-2014, 05:45 AM   #52
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Default Re: 1941-2016: 75 Years of Wonder Woman

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Originally Posted by KRYPTON INC. View Post
So.... A Wonder Woman that is tied up regularly to have her power removed by men and women, that rides magical kangaroos, and is given pablum, Oprah-esque psycho-babble dialog about "love" and "submission" is what some think will be a successful formula for Wonder Woman in the 21st Century?
I can tell you this: It would be more interesting than Generic Badass Warrior Woman. The original William Marston WW stories had plenty of elements that I imagine would be shocking for readers in the 1940s, and maybe even today.

There was a strong lesbian/feminist undercurrent to those old stories. If anything, I feel that including those elements strengthens the Wonder Woman character, since she is widely seen as a feminist icon. Removing them or moving them to the background effectively turns her into Xena, Warrior Princess -- just another token "strong female" in the Justice League boys' club.

I say, let her freak flag fly.

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Old 03-31-2014, 05:47 AM   #53
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Default Re: 1941-2016: 75 Years of Wonder Woman

Well lets see how successful WW:E1 is with Grant Morrison going back to those ideas.

Also that Sky Kanga pic is amazing. The steam coming out of it's nose. WW wearing a HR Gieger mask. The cosmos in the background. Wow haha.

This interview from last week is essential reading. Phil Jimenez gets it:

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Heck -- this is my argument for the "bathing suit" costume -- that costume is all about sex, sexual power, sexual defiance, body freedom and absence of shame. Of course it's not "practical;" no superhero costume is. It's a symbol of something else. Thus, the constant need to modify it, to make it battle-ready, to make it "practical" rather defeats the whole purpose of the original costume. This was, originally, a character that was full of fun and light; who saw crime fighting as an adventure; who had no shame about her body; who was a skilled enough athlete and fighter she'd never need armor in the first place (and while she used a sword here and there over her first few decades, it was rare with her, because really, with her power and speed, wouldn't that just be cheating? Where would the fun, and self-betterment be in that?).
Without the sex, gender and love stuff in Wonder Woman, you're left with, essentially Xena-lite or the DC version of Lady Sif; a generic warrior maiden who doesn't represent all that much except strength through war, honor through violence, victory by the blade of a sword.

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Old 03-31-2014, 05:52 AM   #54
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Default Re: 1941-2016: 75 Years of Wonder Woman

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Well lets see how successful WW:E1 is with Grant Morrison going back to those ideas.
I had no idea Grant Morrison was doing a Wonder Woman run! Consider me officially stoked.

Morrison gets the essence of the most iconic comic book characters like no other. I loved how his New 52 run on Superman returned the character to his roots as a rough-edged fighter for the working class against the Metropolis elite.

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Old 03-31-2014, 05:55 AM   #55
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Default Re: 1941-2016: 75 Years of Wonder Woman

Also from that article:

Quote:
The shift also suggests something about what we think about sex, our comfort level with sex and sexual power, and a general, cultural sexism that suggests most things feminine are weak, and the way to really prove one's value (literally and figuratively) is shedding the feminine (especially if its sexual, but not sexualized) and embracing the masculine.
That's the truth right there. And it's become so evident in this forum over the last couple months in the Gadot threads. So many people here are uncomfortable with sex and femininity, that they want WW to be armored and holding a blade and replacing those elements with masculinity.


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Old 03-31-2014, 05:58 AM   #56
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Default Re: 1941-2016: 75 Years of Wonder Woman

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I had no idea Grant Morrison was doing a Wonder Woman run! Consider me officially stoked.

Morrison gets the essence of the most iconic comic book characters like no other. I loved how his New 52 run on Superman returned the character to his roots as a rough-edged fighter for the working class against the Metropolis elite.
Seriously you should track down the last Kevin Smith Fat Man on batman podcast where he sits down with Grant Morrison, and Grant spends a good amount going through the history of WW, and how he's going to take WW back to Marston's original. And how those stories were just so subversive, underground and Bohemian (before there was such a thing), which was just so counter-culture back in the 40's. It's pretty amazing. I could listen to that man talk forever.

Edit: It's episode 44 of Fat-man on Batman

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Old 03-31-2014, 06:02 AM   #57
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Default Re: 1941-2016: 75 Years of Wonder Woman

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Seriously you should track down the last Kevin Smith Fat Man on batman podcast where he sits down with Grant Morrison, and Grant spends a good amount going through the history of WW, and how he's going to take WW back to Marston's original. And how those stories were just so subversive, underground and Bohemian (before there was such a thing), which was just so counter-culture back in the 40's. It's pretty amazing. I could listen to that man talk forever.
Rest assured I'll be looking up that interview. Thanks for the recommendation.

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Old 03-31-2014, 06:13 AM   #58
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Default Re: 1941-2016: 75 Years of Wonder Woman

Listening to it now.

Grant Morrison has a really thick British accent.

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Old 03-31-2014, 06:42 AM   #59
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Default Re: 1941-2016: 75 Years of Wonder Woman

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Listening to it now.

Grant Morrison has a really thick British accent.
Scottish

You do get used to it after a bit.

Him talking about modernizing Marston's original ideas is fantastic. I'm sad that the books been delayed to 2015 though...

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Old 03-31-2014, 07:52 AM   #60
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Default Re: 1941-2016: 75 Years of Wonder Woman

If Wonder Woman had stick with that, we wouldn't even know her by know.

And Diana's costume is about making her sexualized to male readers, nothing more, nothing less.

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Old 03-31-2014, 08:13 AM   #61
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Default Re: 1941-2016: 75 Years of Wonder Woman

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If Wonder Woman had stick with that, we wouldn't even know her by know.

And Diana's costume is about making her sexualized to male readers, nothing more, nothing less.
I love your tunnel thinking.

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Old 03-31-2014, 11:45 AM   #62
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Default Re: 1941-2016: 75 Years of Wonder Woman

I saw the same kind of narrow minded "That wouldn't work today" talk from some Superman fans, back in the days when someone had the audacity to suggest that bringing back some of the golden age characterization would be a good idea.

Then, Grant Morrison had his "Action Comics" run.

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Old 03-31-2014, 12:23 PM   #63
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Default Re: 1941-2016: 75 Years of Wonder Woman

Maybe one day we'll have a film about Wonder Woman flying giant kangaroos in space and it will be a great success.

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Old 03-31-2014, 12:36 PM   #64
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Default Re: 1941-2016: 75 Years of Wonder Woman

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Scottish

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Old 04-01-2014, 10:58 PM   #65
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Default Re: 1941-2016: 75 Years of Wonder Woman

75 years of celebration:

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Old 04-01-2014, 11:40 PM   #66
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Th Cool Re: 1941-2016: 75 Years of Wonder Woman

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If Wonder Woman had stick with that, we wouldn't even know her by know.

And Diana's costume is about making her sexualized to male readers, nothing more, nothing less.

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Old 04-02-2014, 03:02 AM   #67
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Default Re: 1941-2016: 75 Years of Wonder Woman

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Also from that article:

That's the truth right there. And it's become so evident in this forum over the last couple months in the Gadot threads. So many people here are uncomfortable with sex and femininity, that they want WW to be armored and holding a blade and replacing those elements with masculinity.
That's not true.

Wanting her to wear clothes does not mean people are uncomfortable with sex or femininity. Femininity isn't all about showing as much skin as possible. If people suggest superman wear more than swim trunks, are they uncomfortable with masculinity? Personally, I just want her to wear clothes. They don't have to be armoured and no blade is required. Dressing appropriately for battle isn't just for men. Or at least it shouldn't be.

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Old 04-02-2014, 06:31 AM   #68
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Default Re: 1941-2016: 75 Years of Wonder Woman

Okay, have you looked at Gadot? She could wear overalls and still look sexy and feminine. Why does she have to be half-naked?

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Old 04-02-2014, 07:01 AM   #69
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Default Re: 1941-2016: 75 Years of Wonder Woman

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Originally Posted by Axl Van Sixx View Post
I can tell you this: It would be more interesting than Generic Badass Warrior Woman. The original William Marston WW stories had plenty of elements that I imagine would be shocking for readers in the 1940s, and maybe even today.

There was a strong lesbian/feminist undercurrent to those old stories. If anything, I feel that including those elements strengthens the Wonder Woman character, since she is widely seen as a feminist icon. Removing them or moving them to the background effectively turns her into Xena, Warrior Princess -- just another token "strong female" in the Justice League boys' club.

I say, let her freak flag fly.
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Well lets see how successful WW:E1 is with Grant Morrison going back to those ideas.
It would be nice if there were elements of that still in the story. And I hope any solo WW movies incorporate parts of that and pay homage to those ideas and that they aren't completely removed from who she is.

I hope Morrison's take on that is successful and will offer some sort of idea/blueprint as to how that can be portrayed in a live action movie.

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Old 04-02-2014, 08:13 AM   #70
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Default Re: 1941-2016: 75 Years of Wonder Woman

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That's not true.

Wanting her to wear clothes does not mean people are uncomfortable with sex or femininity. Femininity isn't all about showing as much skin as possible. If people suggest superman wear more than swim trunks, are they uncomfortable with masculinity? Personally, I just want her to wear clothes. They don't have to be armoured and no blade is required. Dressing appropriately for battle isn't just for men. Or at least it shouldn't be.
Sure, I wasn't pointing the finger at your arguments. Even for the advanced screening of CA:TWS tonight all the cinemas staff which was completely young girls were dressed up as all the main superheros. And the one dressed as WW had a skirt. I definitely agree that that's probably the most acceptable for her on-screen character these days.

But that's just the times and these constructs in everyone's head that dictate right or wrong. It's just the system winning. Which is a shame because 1940's WW was a complete subversion of this.

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Old 04-02-2014, 08:24 AM   #71
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Default Re: 1941-2016: 75 Years of Wonder Woman

Giving Wonder Woman a skirt/loincloth is like taking away Superman's trunks. It changes her iconography, but otherwise doesn't harm the overall look.

However I do think changing Wonder Woman's costume by adding extraneous details, and continual alteration does change the character, at least the vastly superior Marston version.

The man was a psychologist and intended her to look a certain way, the Amazons to look and act a certain way, and there is a reason Wonder Woman has a special rope that forces you not to lie to her. People may not like it, but they're sexual reasons.

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Old 04-02-2014, 09:04 AM   #72
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Default Re: 1941-2016: 75 Years of Wonder Woman

I really doubt they're ever going to make WW a fetish object for live action.

And if people are going to go back to what Marston envisioned...he drew her in a skirt or shorts, not in spangley panties.

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Old 04-02-2014, 09:17 AM   #73
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Default Re: 1941-2016: 75 Years of Wonder Woman

Wonder Woman is not the fetish object, it's the other way around. She's well adjusted about sex, if there is anything to do with fetishes, it's the amazons.

The sexual iconography was used as a gateway for other themes largely in relation to consequences of crime/war. Hence Wonder Woman being an ambassador of peace.

Nowadays, Wonder Woman is a generic female hero, she Superman with boobs, and while those stories can be good, we already have Superman. Maybe there is a reason Wonder Woman hasn't sold well in decades.

As for the design, her iconography was not settled for almost two decades until afyer her debut. Which is why Superman has never worn roman sandal- esque boots, or a red S inside a yellow triangle.


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Old 04-02-2014, 09:35 AM   #74
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Default Re: 1941-2016: 75 Years of Wonder Woman

He seemed to have WW tied up a lot herself though...

Even if he did make her the dominant one, I don't find anything special or liberating about a female character demonstrating power through sexual iconography. That seems far too common to me. It seems to be the safe way to make a woman dominant because it still allows her to be appealing sexually. How about making her a natural leader? Or giving her a personality that has nothing to do with what people find "sexy"?

I'm not saying I prefer her to be a female Superman, but using sex to differentiate her seems like the usual crock to me. Would people be advocating for or creating male heroes with these sexual connotations? I really doubt it.

Having said that, if people prefer that version, that's fine for them. I'm not fond of it and won't be sad if it's never used. I do think WW is often short-changed in the personality department and used as a one-note action babe who makes "GRRR" faces. However, Azzarello's run has been very good (for the most part) and I'd be surprised if it wasn't selling well.

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Old 04-02-2014, 09:45 AM   #75
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Default Re: 1941-2016: 75 Years of Wonder Woman

MrsKent you're getting the wrong reading of that early Marston material. Imagine how empowering that material would have been decades before universal suffrage.

And Marston pretty much defined her look used to this day. The cut of her shorts was perhaps in compliance with 40's fashion, which was updated over time. But it's pretty much the same.


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