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View Poll Results: Which was the better phase 2 solo film?
Iron Man 3 14 7.69%
Thor: The Dark World 5 2.75%
Captain America: The Winter Soldier 163 89.56%
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Old 04-11-2014, 09:04 PM   #126
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Default Re: Phase 2: Which Avenger had the best solo film?

The unicorn of the MCU.

Can I make that my sig please?

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Old 04-11-2014, 09:46 PM   #127
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Why couldn't Sif and the Warriors 3 go with Thor, Loki, and Jane on their LOTR-ish quest? Seriously, there's no good reason for then NOT to go and it would have been a good opportunity to flesh them out as characters. Honestly, I'm fine with Thor/Jane and I thought that Hemsworth and Portman had decent chemistry in the first film. I was even willing to give the first movie a pass on the somewhat weak love story, because I didn't see it as a true love story. I saw it as two people who had an attraction to each other that could potentially become love in the future. Branagh also left it wide open to develop their relationship in the sequel and show exactly WHY these to are so in love. The problem is that the sequel didn't do that. The "love story" is even more shallow than it was in the first movie and since this is a sequel they're pushing it so much more, it sticks out more. Also, I'm actually ok with Thor picking Jane over Sif, at least for now. However, I wanted it to be more of a tough decision for him. It seemed like there was NO hesitation or question in his mind AT ALL that it would be Jane, and that's not believable. If he's conflicted and unsure and then ultimately chooses Jane because of what happens in the film, then fine. But they didn't do that and because the "romance" was handled so poorly, I still don't know WHY he's so in love with her, WHY it's such an easy call for him, besides her being hot. Basically, the premise is fine, but the execution was really poor.

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Old 04-11-2014, 09:58 PM   #128
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Why couldn't Sif and the Warriors 3 go with Thor, Loki, and Jane on their LOTR-ish quest? Seriously, there's no good reason for then NOT to go and it would have been a good opportunity to flesh them out as characters. Honestly, I'm fine with Thor/Jane and I thought that Hemsworth and Portman had decent chemistry in the first film. I was even willing to give the first movie a pass on the somewhat weak love story, because I didn't see it as a true love story. I saw it as two people who had an attraction to each other that could potentially become love in the future. Branagh also left it wide open to develop their relationship in the sequel and show exactly WHY these to are so in love. The problem is that the sequel didn't do that. The "love story" is even more shallow than it was in the first movie and since this is a sequel they're pushing it so much more, it sticks out more. Also, I'm actually ok with Thor picking Jane over Sif, at least for now. However, I wanted it to be more of a tough decision for him. It seemed like there was NO hesitation or question in his mind AT ALL that it would be Jane, and that's not believable. If he's conflicted and unsure and then ultimately chooses Jane because of what happens in the film, then fine. But they didn't do that and because the "romance" was handled so poorly, I still don't know WHY he's so in love with her, WHY it's such an easy call for him, besides her being hot. Basically, the premise is fine, but the execution was really poor.
Yep all of This^

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Old 04-11-2014, 10:41 PM   #129
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Well ermmm....she's ermm smart?

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Old 04-11-2014, 10:44 PM   #130
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The unicorn of the MCU.

Can I make that my sig please?
Were you talkin' to me???

Yeah, totes! He really, really is! Sexy majestic, pure as the driven snow Steve Rogers!

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Old 04-12-2014, 08:58 AM   #131
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Default Re: Phase 2: Which Avenger had the best solo film?

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As for IM3, the shrapnel ending is what annoyed me most. You can't just remove one of RDJ Iron Man's key plot points in a 2s throwaway line.
This was by far my biggest issue with IM3. I hated that Tony's "terrible privilege," the point he used to related to Banner in The Avengers, was gone. That glowing circle of light served to remind us that Tony was human, and would be dead if it wasn't for his intelligence. Way to thin out the character. Other than that, there were a few scenes where the humor could've been pulled back, but it wasn't enough to detract from my overall enjoyment of the film. It's still in my top 5 MCU movies.

MCU fans are extremely lucky, they haven't put out a single dud yet. Sure, a lot of the points brought up here might've improved the movies, but they're all still pretty great regardless of our gripes.

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Old 04-12-2014, 10:23 AM   #132
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Were you talkin' to me???

Yeah, totes! He really, really is! Sexy majestic, pure as the driven snow Steve Rogers!
Yeah I was.
And that actually makes sense.

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Old 04-12-2014, 10:47 AM   #133
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MCU fans are extremely lucky, they haven't put out a single dud yet. Sure, a lot of the points brought up here might've improved the movies, but they're all still pretty great regardless of our gripes.
Agreed! When I watch these MCU movies I always enjoy them even with their flaws albeit minor ones. So thats cool with me. I think as they progress theyll just get better and smarter.

IM 3: Tony having his arc reactor removed mustve been done for a reason. Shane Black had to have talked to Marvel about it. I think it was an important part of who Tony was, but I dont think it being gone will take away his coolness at all.

(Noticed the Arc reactor is on the Hulkbusters back, which is pretty awesome!)


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Old 04-12-2014, 10:48 AM   #134
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TWS is a clear example you don't need unnecessary characters and forced jokes to make a good movie. TDW should've been about Thor, Sif and the warriors three traveling around the 9 realms, not going to earth and giving Darcy so much screentime and terrible jokes. And then there's Jane Foster, the MCU's Bella Swan. ThorxJane is such a forced romance it's not even funny. I don't complain about the humour in IM3, after all, it's bound to happen with RDJ's Stark. But when you turn the villain into a joke and the movie is a comedy, you realize there's something wrong. I guess I never liked how IM3 never took itself seriously. IM3 brought nothing new to the table, and TDW's villain was disappointing. If Malekith ever returns, I'd like to see him talking more. Is there any way we can tell Feige to compare those 3 movies and realize they need to keep making more like TWS?

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Old 04-12-2014, 11:59 AM   #135
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Agreed! When I watch these MCU movies I always enjoy them even with their flaws albeit minor ones. So thats cool with me. I think as they progress theyll just get better and smarter.

IM 3: Tony having his arc reactor removed mustve been done for a reason. Shane Black had to have talked to Marvel about it. I think it was an important part of who Tony was, but I dont think it being gone will take away his coolness at all.

(Noticed the Arc reactor is on the Hulkbusters back, which is pretty awesome!)
It wasn't really Tony having the arc reactor removed that was the problem. It was:

1. How much of an afterthought that it came across as.
2. The lack of an explanation as to how it worked and why Tony couldn't have just done this before.

The act itself wasn't bad in theory, it's the lack of an adequate explanation or buildup to it.

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Old 04-12-2014, 12:09 PM   #136
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It wasn't really Tony having the arc reactor removed that was the problem. It was:

1. How much of an afterthought that it came across as.
2. The lack of an explanation as to how it worked and why Tony couldn't have just done this before.

The act itself wasn't bad in theory, it's the lack of an adequate explanation or buildup to it.
It did happen suddenly but in a way, the film was about him not needing to be in the suit to be Iron Man. Thus not needing to be burdened with the arc reactor in his chest. I guess theres diff ways you can look at it. I have no idea why he didnt do it before then.

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Old 04-12-2014, 12:14 PM   #137
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It was like that scene in IM2 where Jarvis says it's impossible to create a new element, and then Tony does it like 5 minutes later with no explanation. Only this time it's much worse because we had 3 films saying "It's impossible for this to happen".

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Old 04-12-2014, 12:22 PM   #138
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It was like that scene in IM2 where Jarvis says it's impossible to create a new element, and then Tony does it like 5 minutes later with no explanation. Only this time it's much worse because we had 3 films saying "It's impossible for this to happen".
Exactly! Agreed on both points

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Old 04-12-2014, 12:27 PM   #139
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So easy. The Winter Soldier.

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Old 04-12-2014, 12:44 PM   #140
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I think it had more to do with Tony not being able to let it go and move on, like with the suits, he was probably just not prepared to give it up and have a life without it.

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Old 04-12-2014, 01:09 PM   #141
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I think it had more to do with Tony not being able to let it go and move on, like with the suits, he was probably just not prepared to give it up and have a life without it.
Two problems with that:

1) It's entirely speculation. It's not in the previous movies at all.

2) It contradicts one of the most well done aspects of IM2 - Tony feeling like he has no control over anything, both in terms of his life and his tech getting in the hands of the wrong people.

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Old 04-12-2014, 01:40 PM   #142
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I know Cap is in good hands and Cap 3 will (hopefully) be of similar high quality as TWS (The Russos are gold).

Not sure where they're going to take Iron Man, but Thor still needs to complete his trilogy.

What direction would you like them to take in Thor 3? Surtur? Enchantress? Kill Jane? King Thor?

I really hope they get Thor 3 right....the big guy deserves a great film ala Iron Man 1 or TWS.

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Old 04-12-2014, 01:47 PM   #143
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Q: How did they take out the metal if he needed the arc reactor to keep it from entering his heart? I cant even remember, was there some special magnet?

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Old 04-12-2014, 01:50 PM   #144
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Q: How did they take out the metal if he needed the arc reactor to keep it from entering his heart? I cant even remember, was there some special magnet?
What IM3 attempted to get across was that Tony had gotten to the place where he could figure anything out. He cured Pepper of Extremis during a voice over. So the answer is: "tinkering."

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Old 04-12-2014, 01:52 PM   #145
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It's hard to answer that one. Some of it just comes down to fanservice, but I think Iron Man 3 had a lot of good ideas, but Captain America 2 had one good idea with a lot of good things building into it. Neither one seemed fresher to me, personally.



Wow. That's a good one.

Iron Man 3

There's a lot to like here, but a little tweaking would have put it at Cap 2 levels for me. I realize it was meant to be more kid-friendly and that RDJ probably wanted some heroic and physical things to do outside of the suit, but I would have tweaked it as much as possible.

Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:

- More Badassness - I wouldn't have taken out the comedy so much as contrasted it better. I think there'd be less home alone-ishness in podunk Kentucky, and more Rhodey elsewhere taking down terrorists. Still a wild goose chase, but something cool.

Even when Tony got to Home Depot I'd have something not too far off from the IM1 cave scene with the kid helping him instead of YinSen, have the whole 'then just build something' convo at the kid's garage, and Home Depot it there, and come out with some real cool next level stuff, not just leftovers from unfilmed episodes of MacGuyver. I'd have him write a new AI using voice recognition on a laptop while putting together a rocket launcher with a chemical fuse or something ridiculous like that. He made Iron Man in a cave, what do you think he could do in a garage?

He wouldn't stealth it, I wouldn't make him that character. I'd show why Tony Stark is awesome at being Tony Stark, not MacGuyver, and definitely not James Bond. He'd come through the front door, knocking down doors and people with mini explosive force makers on his arms and legs, dropping homemade supersonic stun weapons, some new AI controlling a remote control plane to drop some stink/smoke bomb, hurling projectiles, taking bullets... all with homemade one-use stuff. I'd even have him something prepared for the guns he steals to make that more effective or whatever. He'd be a monster. You'd get the feeling that you don't want Tony anywhere near a toolkit. You'd also have a more flowing progression you see as he goes from home alone against Brandt and Coldblood or whatever his name is, to having a sort of armor-lite orchestrator effect at the Miami hacienda, to half suit half gunman to full suit to dozens of suits. Having the hero do lots of cool stuff that accentuates the franchise is part of why Cap 2 gets the nod over IM3.

- At least one Mandarin vs Iron Man Scene - I think I would keep the twist, because it's so subversive and speaks so directly to what the government is on nowadays. I think it would be cool though if we had one really cool memorable scene with Iron Man (in his Home Depot suit) facing off against The Mandarin, in character, with some big giant supervillain speech claiming that Iron Man is in some death trap (even though he's not), and then we deflate it at the moment where Iron Man and Rhodey are about to KO him, Trevor is like "...aaaand scene" in his London accent. THAT would have made me laugh. Having the twist villain confront the hero on both levels, pre and post-twist is part of what gives Cap 2 the nod over IM3.

- Killian and Tony's Relationship - I think it was unclear and too subtextual. Leave the whole Bin-Laden-went-to-Harvard as the subtext. Let's hear clearly about how Killian is basically what Tony Stark was before Iron Man 1. Killian actually thinks he and Tony could be friends now, except for the fact that people like he and Tony don't really have friends and Tony is caught up in this superhero silliness. The movie never implied Killian hated Tony, but since they didn't show what the relationship was, even that Killian didn't care about Tony, then that's what people interpreted, especially if you go for the ol' kidnap your girl trick. An empathetic villain that connects with the hero is part of what gives Cap 2 the nod over IM3.

- Banner - Being there in the post credits scene was awesome, but fans, understandably hoped for more. You could almost give him Happy's role, where he Hulks out, leaves a clue, and disappears until the end of the film. That Avengers connectivity with Black Widow is part of what gives Cap 2 the nod over IM3.



Thor: The Dark World

I'd do a bit of an overhaul on the Thor movie, keep the general premise. I realize pre-production on the film was rushed, after so many director switches, but if they could do it again:

Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:

- A Thor movie, not a Loki movie - Loki had the strongest most developed arc here, and that's a mistake for a movie called Thor. Make this about his quest to become king and juxtapose that with his quest to rescue the maiden, and note that at the end he'll have to choose which one, so when he chooses, at the end, we care. Leave that tension there and play with it, focus on that.

Still have Loki in there, but don't make breaking him out this huge setpiece. Loki's not the star, he's supposed to steal scenes, not have them given to him. Makes for a much more centered and natural storyline. Keep the best Loki bits, with his mother, the Captain America bit after the jailbreak, but let him be the tour guide, the untrusted snake, who redeems himself in the end, or do his machinations go even beyond the grave. Prioritizing the fan favorite character over the main character is part of why this film can't compare.

- A 9 realms movie, not an Earth movie- I think they were just trying to save costs, but this should have been LOTR-lite here, with a "Fellowship" of Thor, Warriors 3, Sif and Loki protecting Aether-Jane and her band of hobb-er, misfits, Darcy, Eric and a cool new assistant, like Amadeus Cho or something. Heck, you could bring Hawkeye, since SHIELD would naturally be investigating huge holes in reality.

They would go to Vanaheim, and the Dark World, and a peek at Svartlefheim (Surtur's area, they make sure to keep moving there), while briefly revisiting Asgard, Jotunheim and Midgard. Thoroughly exploring the setting of the franchise as opposed to something more vanilla is part of why this film can't compare.

- No women in refrigerators - Killing Frigga was cheap and dumb. You only have three women in the franchise. Boo. Instead, over the course of the adventure, due to the hero's actions, let Eric Svelwig die, let Fandral die. Let them go out like heroes. Now you have a mission with stakes. Now it's serious business for Thor's mission, not just his angst for a character we've rarely even seen. Awesome female characters who get to shine brightly all movie long is part of why this film can't compare.

- Keep the Aether-in-Jane but up the stakes- That was actually a good move to bring her into the story, but make it a problem. If they kill her, they can destroy Aether right now, but if they take her to Mount D-er, The Dark World, where she got it, they can free her from it, but then Malkeith may get it. Kurse constantly pursues them with the Dark Elves as they travel these worlds. The tension of having to save the problem is part of why this film can't compare.

- Love Triangle with Sif - There was a hint of it, let Sif be the one to ever so gently remind Thor and everyone else that Jane is not a god, she will die soon, one way or another, she cannot protect herself and Thor is needed to be king. Let Sif be perfectly cooly catty, while still being a badass warrior and 'one of the guys.' Also, you can add depth to Jane by having her understand that she's 'just a human' and Thor 'deserves/needs so much more' or what have you. Make that a problem. So when he chooses her, it has some weight to it. Having multiple female 'options' is part of why this film can't compare.

- Loki actually dies - Cliffhanger/Credits buzz with Hel and/or possessing Sif. Comeuppance for and redemption of the villains is part of why this film can't compare.

- They're still "gods"- I would leave that magic=science vagueness by having Odin say something along the lines of "The term 'god' is relative. In Midgard you are a god, in Asgard you are a prince, on [Planet from Guardians of the Galaxy here] you are an alien." and leave the time periods vague. Locking that down was weak. Really delving into shield and not trying to overground it is part of why this film can't compare.

-Explore Thor without his hammer- They teased something really cool they didn't deliver on: Thor calling his hammer from another realm. If Thor had been separated from Mjolnir and had to prove himself in combat with his fists grappling like he did in the mud (But with super strength), or with a sword! That would have been really cool, especially if it arrived just in time for the final battle. Totally cool. Cap getting it in without his shield is part of why this film doesn't compare.

-Explore Thor with his hammer- Let Thor work up some concentration to unleash the power of the elements. Would have been great on the Dark World. Balance it with the fact that he has to concentrate, and he gets crazy winded/disoriented afterwards. Cap's Shield getting well used was part of why the film doesn't compare.

-Explore Malkeith with Odin- Let Malkeith occupy or be in a constant battle with Asgard. Odin and Heimdall will get their good fights in, but they're counting on Thor and Jane to make it to the Dark World. Malkeith and Odin's conversations play out in a grand chess game and some great exposition. Malkeith not being on Pierce's level was part of why the film doesn't compare.

-Beta Ray Bill- Total fanservice, but I would have had the Korbinites enslaved on Svartleheim or something and the 'Fellowship' gets captured, but one of the other slaves, a Korbinite, that Darcy names 'Bill' is able to lift it, and helps free them.
Great detailed post!

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Old 04-12-2014, 02:27 PM   #146
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What IM3 attempted to get across was that Tony had gotten to the place where he could figure anything out. He cured Pepper of Extremis during a voice over. So the answer is: "tinkering."
I read it more that he had gotten to the place where he was willing to tinker with that problem and figure out a solution instead of living with the status quo he'd created for himself. That's kind of a recurring theme for the character in all three films: He gets complacent with an imperfect situation until he's pushed into figuring out something better. In the first movie, he was complacent with the unwieldy and cost-ineffective prototype arc reactor that wasn't doing anyone any good until the events in Afghanistan forced him to actually try and build a smaller and more efficient version of it. In the second movie, he was complacent with the reactor's Palladium core than was slowly poisoning him until the events of the film forced him to start caring about his life again and find a better alternative. In the third film, he was complacent with the reactor being the thing that's keeping him alive and his whole identity and sense of security being wrapped up in the arc reactor and the suits until the events of the film forced him to reevaluate his life and led him to figure out a way to move beyond needing the reactor and the suits to survive and be the man he wants to be. In all three of these cases, the problem and eventual solution revolve around the arc reactor and the shrapnel in his chest, and in all three cases they parallel larger life and world stuff he's not dealing with (in movie one it's the negative impact he and his company are leaving on the world, in movie two it's his recklessness in his approach to being Iron Man and his stalled relationship with Pepper, in movie three it's the pressure of living with the consequences of both the changes he's made in his life and the mistakes he made before he made those changes and keeping his relationship with Pepper together).

It's a pretty consistent character arc, I think.

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Old 04-12-2014, 02:58 PM   #147
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^^ Great points! Tony using his knowledge in each film to push things further, overcome obstacles.

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Old 04-12-2014, 02:59 PM   #148
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Default Re: Phase 2: Which Avenger had the best solo film?

Plus, I think it's neat that the block he had to move past in the third film was the thing that pushed him to move past his block in the first film. That feels very real to me.

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Old 04-12-2014, 03:25 PM   #149
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Although I don't think there's a large difference in quality between Iron Man 3 and the Winter Soldier, I do have to give it Stark in this case. If there's one thing that clinches it beyond anything for me, it's that Tony has a really strong character arc (that ties in seamlessly to the film's themes to boot) while the creators of Cap's films have always been reluctant to give Steve one. I understand they want to preserve his values and attitude, but it seems like they had an opportunity with TWS but chose to postpone it for the sequel, which is a shame.

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Old 04-12-2014, 04:12 PM   #150
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Agreed! When I watch these MCU movies I always enjoy them even with their flaws albeit minor ones. So thats cool with me. I think as they progress theyll just get better and smarter.

IM 3: Tony having his arc reactor removed mustve been done for a reason. Shane Black had to have talked to Marvel about it. I think it was an important part of who Tony was, but I dont think it being gone will take away his coolness at all.

(Noticed the Arc reactor is on the Hulkbusters back, which is pretty awesome!)
Tony should have just remove the sharpnel in iron man 2! Then he wont be be poisoned. And he wont have to create a new element. That my thought after my lst viewing of iron man3 .

I actually like iron man 3. It is a funny film..sort of like a comedy to me.

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