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10 66 39.76%
9 68 40.96%
8 21 12.65%
7 6 3.61%
6 2 1.20%
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Old 04-14-2014, 07:07 PM   #26
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Default Re: Captain America: The Winter Soldier - User Review Thread! - SPOILERS! - Part 2

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Addressed to The Guard:

Given that they explored Falcon as a war vet/PTSD survivor/counselor who lost his own wingman and connected with Steve in that fashion, I'm not sure what else you'd want the film to explore. TWS used its 130 mins. quite effectively, IMO. A great balance of character moments and development and action. The Steve and Sam bond was one highlight. My opinion, of course.

But I'm kind of at a loss at what other themes they could've explored with Falcon that was relevant to the Winter Soldier story and to Steve Rogers development.
Feel the same. I thought the movie did right by the character by establishing the friendship and connection to Cap. And how only someone of Cap's integrity could move Falcon into donning his suit again.

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Old 04-14-2014, 07:18 PM   #27
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Addressed to The Guard:

Given that they explored Falcon as a war vet/PTSD survivor/counselor who lost his own wingman and connected with Steve in that fashion, I'm not sure what else you'd want the film to explore. TWS used its 130 mins. quite effectively, IMO. A great balance of character moments and development and action. The Steve and Sam bond was one highlight. My opinion, of course.

But I'm kind of at a loss at what other themes they could've explored with Falcon that was relevant to the Winter Soldier story and to Steve Rogers' development.
The Sam and Steve bond was a highlight, absolutely, and a nice counterpoint to Bucky/Cap, but the actual arc of Wilson was somewhat lacking in relation.

I would think exploring the themes better, and it really wouldn't require much more screentime, just a bit of tinkering with existing lines, would be somewhere along the lines of delving just a little deeper into the trauma that Sam experienced.

Wilson's specialized training didn't just cause him to lose a friend and ally, which is we've seen soldier characters refer to countless times on film...but it caused him to experience real, personal trauma. His experiences in combat fundamentally changed him as a person, who he was, what he was able to do, and perhaps even how he viewed the world, life, etc. Even though he had a positive outlook and was doing constructive things, he could still be, in some respects, a broken man because of what he'd been through. He'd probably have lost some of his sense of purpose upon his return from combat. I would play with some of those ideas, as well as its interplay with Steve and their friendship. Have him eventually not wanting to let down another friend...or valuing his new friend so much that he overcomes his trauma. Something.

Then, when he puts the wings on, it actually MEANS something, as a character, thematically, and emotionally.

It's not just "Cool, he's putting the wings on! I've always wanted to see The Falcon on screen."

I'd tie Sam's experience to Captain America's own experiences as a soldier, and in combat, and feeling "out of place" in the world he's discovered since his return from his "mission" (not just losing partners), and delve into the will it takes to get back out there, to do what you're meant and trained to do, even when you've experienced trauma or loss as a result.

They sort of hint at PTSD being an issue, but like Tony Stark's similar issue in IRON MAN 3, its quite vague and they never really go there and do anything with it in relation to Sam himself, other than showing he's a counselor.

Yeah, he's a good guy who is aware of the issue and trying to help others, but you don't see any real conflict in Sam about getting back out there, using his skills, fighting the good fight, etc. He's this well-adjusted guy that something bad happened to and he just kind of doesn't wear the wings anymore because his tour is over, and then he's strapping on a jetpack with wings because his new friend is Captain America and **** hit the fan.

And beyond that stuff, he's The Falcon. Flight, the joy of flight, and the different world it creates for him, is a huge part of his character, and he's been "grounded" in a sense. He's incomplete. So I'd use "flight" as a literary metaphor, as Wilson's sense of freedom, not just a visual cue. Show The Falcon trying to get back into the swing of it at some point, truly missing the skies, the rush of the wings, the power, the freedom, the ability to save lives, but then maybe even being unable to "take off" at first in a key moment, because even as he misses it, he fears it. Something to drive the point home. Don't just tell us about his trauma. SHOW us why it matters.

There's something almost there in the movie, but its not really there. For me, they introduced some nice ideas, but they never quite solidified them into a decent conflict for The Falcon or an interesting character arc in relation to his effectively becoming a superhero.

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Old 04-14-2014, 07:22 PM   #28
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I watched this today and I thought it was an entertaining movie I'd give a 7/10. The one problem I had with it was its very predictable. I kept away from the boards about it, read little to nothing and beside watching AOS had no prior knowledge outside I read a couple different runs of Cap(Bucky and Steve).

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Old 04-14-2014, 07:44 PM   #29
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A reminder to everyone....if you want to discuss BATMAN....go to the BATMAN forums to do so.

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Old 04-14-2014, 07:59 PM   #30
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10/10

This movie is shear perfection. I've only rated five genre films a 10/10 and this is one of them.

I can see why most everyone is praising Captain America: The Winter Soldier in some way. Cap manages to deliver a little bit of everything and does it with style and integrity. This extremely talented cast fit each character perfectly, both large and especially the smaller roles. The story itself is told in a masterful, crisp manner and is every bit a conspiracy thriller as it is an adventure. The dialogue is witty and the humor works its way seamlessly in to the natural order of the story. The film certainly is smart and delivers more emotion than I was expecting. Comic book style slugfests are certainly part of the action but are inserted as a vehicle for the story and not just to see CGI things explode. Things aren’t blown up just for the sake of seeing them go boom.

What makes Captain America: TWS as good as any Marvel film is the fact that it’s a fine film for kids but it's even greater if you're an intelligent adult. How many movies can pull that off? Like Thor and the Iron Man films, this is movie making of the most entertaining order but actually does it even better if that’s possible. It easily deserves all the praise it has generated from both fans and critics alike.

The events here makes everyone long for Avengers Age of Ultron but also makes me wonder if they can possibly top this for the third Cap film? The bar is now set VERY high.

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Old 04-14-2014, 08:01 PM   #31
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The Sam and Steve bond was a highlight, absolutely, and a nice counterpoint to Bucky/Cap, but the actual arc of Wilson was somewhat lacking in relation.

I would think exploring the themes better, and it really wouldn't require much more screentime, just a bit of tinkering with existing lines, would be somewhere along the lines of delving just a little deeper into the trauma that Sam experienced.

Wilson's specialized training didn't just cause him to lose a friend and ally, which is we've seen soldier characters refer to countless times on film...but it caused him to experience real, personal trauma. His experiences in combat fundamentally changed him as a person, who he was, what he was able to do, and perhaps even how he viewed the world, life, etc. Even though he had a positive outlook and was doing constructive things, he could still be, in some respects, a broken man because of what he'd been through. He'd probably have lost some of his sense of purpose upon his return from combat. I would play with some of those ideas, as well as its interplay with Steve and their friendship. Have him eventually not wanting to let down another friend...or valuing his new friend so much that he overcomes his trauma. Something.

Then, when he puts the wings on, it actually MEANS something, as a character, thematically, and emotionally.

It's not just "Cool, he's putting the wings on! I've always wanted to see The Falcon on screen."

I'd tie Sam's experience to Captain America's own experiences as a soldier, and in combat, and feeling "out of place" in the world he's discovered since his return from his "mission" (not just losing partners), and delve into the will it takes to get back out there, to do what you're meant and trained to do, even when you've experienced trauma or loss as a result.

They sort of hint at PTSD being an issue, but like Tony Stark's similar issue in IRON MAN 3, its quite vague and they never really go there and do anything with it in relation to Sam himself, other than showing he's a counselor.

Yeah, he's a good guy who is aware of the issue and trying to help others, but you don't see any real conflict in Sam about getting back out there, using his skills, fighting the good fight, etc. He's this well-adjusted guy that something bad happened to and he just kind of doesn't wear the wings anymore because his tour is over, and then he's strapping on a jetpack with wings because his new friend is Captain America and **** hit the fan.

And beyond that stuff, he's The Falcon. Flight, the joy of flight, and the different world it creates for him, is a huge part of his character, and he's been "grounded" in a sense. He's incomplete. So I'd use "flight" as a literary metaphor, as Wilson's sense of freedom, not just a visual cue. Show The Falcon trying to get back into the swing of it at some point, truly missing the skies, the rush of the wings, the power, the freedom, the ability to save lives, but then maybe even being unable to "take off" at first in a key moment, because even as he misses it, he fears it. Something to drive the point home. Don't just tell us about his trauma. SHOW us why it matters.

There's something almost there in the movie, but its not really there. For me, they introduced some nice ideas, but they never quite solidified them into a decent conflict for The Falcon or an interesting character arc in relation to his effectively becoming a superhero.

These are all fine points.

I guess, for me, the arc was more than sufficient for Falcon because he is only a supporting character in Steve's story at the moment, and, I think, more than anything, this movie was mostly his introduction into the Marvelverse. That they were able to create a modernized version of the character, not just through the script but through Mackie's stellar performance and his chemistry with Chris, a believable arc that this was the type of guy who would choose to fly into battle was, for me, extremely impressive. You could tell he admired and respected Steve and Cap from the get-go, but also knew that he could relate to Cap as a soldier who lost someone very important to him, and he could relate to Steve as a person.

I just got the impression that he heard Steve and Nat's conversation, heard a lot of people were going to die, and an intelligence agency was up to no good, and he couldn't stand by and let that happen. He saw Cap desperately needed help and decided he was going to be his "Fly-Or-Die" guy.

I don't think that needed any more explanation beyond that. At his core, Sam Wilson is a hero already, he wasn't becoming one. Just like Steve Rogers is a hero, with or without the serum.

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Old 04-14-2014, 08:15 PM   #32
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The Sam and Steve bond was a highlight, absolutely, and a nice counterpoint to Bucky/Cap, but the actual arc of Wilson was somewhat lacking in relation.

I would think exploring the themes better, and it really wouldn't require much more screentime, just a bit of tinkering with existing lines, would be somewhere along the lines of delving just a little deeper into the trauma that Sam experienced.

Wilson's specialized training didn't just cause him to lose a friend and ally, which is we've seen soldier characters refer to countless times on film...but it caused him to experience real, personal trauma. His experiences in combat fundamentally changed him as a person, who he was, what he was able to do, and perhaps even how he viewed the world, life, etc. Even though he had a positive outlook and was doing constructive things, he could still be, in some respects, a broken man because of what he'd been through. He'd probably have lost some of his sense of purpose upon his return from combat. I would play with some of those ideas, as well as its interplay with Steve and their friendship. Have him eventually not wanting to let down another friend...or valuing his new friend so much that he overcomes his trauma. Something.
i got all of that from the movie without it being spelled out. he did mention his partner a couple of times. it's very easy to translate that into devotion to his new mission; helping Cap.

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Old 04-14-2014, 08:22 PM   #33
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I thought the PTSD was portrayed quite understatedly. There are different degrees and shades of PTSD, and Sam, like Steve, is more well-adjusted than most.

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Old 04-14-2014, 08:27 PM   #34
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Yeah, and the effects are still there. Steve's clearly unhappy and unsettled in his role with SHIELD but he doesn't know what else he's suited to do. While he understands and accepts that life has moved on, he's still rather stuck between the past and present. He's adjusted to technology, but not the modern world's morality. And he expresses this to Sam a pretty clearly in a couple of scenes. And, of course, Fury, Peggy and Natasha.

I think playing it further might have come across as heavy-handed. The contexts in which Cap's conflict with modern society and how he has moved forward and adjusted, as well as how he hasn't, were natural and germane to the story.

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Old 04-14-2014, 08:27 PM   #35
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Old 04-14-2014, 08:30 PM   #36
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BTW The Smithsonian scene did a great job of giving backstory to those who never saw or don't remember TFA. And in a way that doesn't feel forced.

Perhaps the best part was the Peggy video followed by showing Steve's picture of her in the compass. That's all you need to know to understand their relationship. And then it's followed by seeing her today.

I love subtle writing like that.
Seeing that little subtle moment in TFA sealed my undying Steve/Peggy love. It was such a perfect, understated moment in their story together.

Then also, the whole Steve/Natasha thing going on in this movie was pretty incredible. It never got maudlin, schmoopy, or out of character. Evans and Johannson are fantastic acting partners.

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Old 04-14-2014, 09:40 PM   #37
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Pretty much, the trolling is reaching peak levels about now.
The trolling will never peak. We still have years until SvB, and whether its good or bad, it will just goad the trolls onward.

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Old 04-14-2014, 09:43 PM   #38
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That's why I am counting the literal days until one of the movies move. Dang…

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Old 04-14-2014, 10:23 PM   #39
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These are all fine points.

I guess, for me, the arc was more than sufficient for Falcon because he is only a supporting character in Steve's story at the moment, and, I think, more than anything, this movie was mostly his introduction into the Marvelverse. That they were able to create a modernized version of the character, not just through the script but through Mackie's stellar performance and his chemistry with Chris, a believable arc that this was the type of guy who would choose to fly into battle was, for me, extremely impressive. You could tell he admired and respected Steve and Cap from the get-go, but also knew that he could relate to Cap as a soldier who lost someone very important to him, and he could relate to Steve as a person.

I just got the impression that he heard Steve and Nat's conversation, heard a lot of people were going to die, and an intelligence agency was up to no good, and he couldn't stand by and let that happen. He saw Cap desperately needed help and decided he was going to be his "Fly-Or-Die" guy.

I don't think that needed any more explanation beyond that. At his core, Sam Wilson is a hero already, he wasn't becoming one. Just like Steve Rogers is a hero, with or without the serum.

I agree with this. Gaurd, you make fine points, if this were a Falcon movie. It's not. Falcon is a supporting character. All that stuff you talk about, it's actually pretty cool. I would have liked to see it. But there wasn't time with everything else this story needed to tell, and I wouldn't have scarified anything else in the film to tell the story of the Falcon you're describing, because he was a supporting character. To really do everything your'e talking about justice, he would have had to almost be a co-main character with Steve. It's just too much.

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Old 04-14-2014, 10:49 PM   #40
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Default Re: Captain America: The Winter Soldier - User Review Thread! - SPOILERS! - Part 2

There's now a running gag online that says Galaga Man was a Hydra sympathizer.

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Old 04-14-2014, 10:51 PM   #41
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Yeah I'm not sure I get why someone would think Falcon was an underdeveloped character. The screen writers actually assumed that the audience has some intelligence to know that after two wars in the '00s and many of us personally knowing people who were over there, many of whom have struggled readjusting to civilian life, that they wouldn't need any more of an explanation than "I did two tours and my wingman died, and now I help other vets who are transitioning to civilian life."

Falcon was one of the better characters in the film. If you want to pick on an underdeveloped character Maria Hill would be the only one. She's really only a shell of her comic counterpart, and neither in Avengers, nor this film, do you get much information on her.

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Old 04-14-2014, 11:04 PM   #42
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Really? You consider discussing a movie's faults "reaching peak levels of trolling"?? Someone who's been on these boards for 12 years should know better...


This makes me think you didn't bother to genuinely understand the opinion that I have of this film. I've stated on more than a couple occasions that it's a good film. I guess in your mind you can dislike a film that you also consider good...but not in mine. If I think it's a good film, that means that I LIKE (not DISlike) it. Apparently, me not bowing down and praising this film like it's the 2nd coming of TDK means that I disliked it.


And I can guarantee that if I were to criticize this film based on those merits they would STILL considered "nitpicks"....or in some people's minds....trolling.
I have no problem with people who had problems or disliked the film. What I have a problem with is for people that did like the film or even thought that it was one of the top 2 or 3 CBM's, of people that come on and tell them that they are wrong.

I'm not saying you are doing that, but there are some that are, not only on this thread but others.

Let me be clear on this. Someone saying "I didn't like the character development in this film", is a legitimate opinion, and can be backed with reason.

Let me give you a brief rundown on what happened on a different thread on this site:

Poster A: "There is no character development in this film."

Poster B: "Acutally there was a ton of character development and here's what it was (explanation)."

Poster A: "That's not character development. No one can offer up any character development in this film, because there was none."

Poster B: "Actually that's not true, I just gave you an explanation on what happened."

Poster A: "You don't know what character development is."

That is trolling, pure and simple. I am paraphrasing but that's what it came off like.

What ever people's opinions are TWS is a critical and financial hit and will earn over two times the gross of the first film. Now we have a select few people who are coming onto the forums telling people that what they saw wasn't as good as what they thought they saw. It's rubbish and childish, and yes the height of trolling.

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Old 04-14-2014, 11:11 PM   #43
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Well then there's "trolling" going on from both ends...because you told me in a different thread that I missed the central theme of the movie. Difference is that I consider that passionate debating, not trolling.

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Old 04-14-2014, 11:14 PM   #44
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That is trolling, pure and simple. I am paraphrasing but that's what it came off like.
That was going on in this thread too, but it wasn't DorkyFresh doing it. I don't agree with his appraisal of TWS but he didn't go into full on ArgueMode™ aka constantly moving goalposts and ignoring every inconvenient post that disagrees with him.

Anyway, how 'bout dat cap 2?

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Old 04-14-2014, 11:19 PM   #45
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Default Re: Captain America: The Winter Soldier - User Review Thread! - SPOILERS! - Part 2

So anyhow... the whole Hydra infiltration kind of makes me look at Item 47 in a whole new light... why Sitwell was so eager to bring known criminals into shield like that...

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Old 04-14-2014, 11:21 PM   #46
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Old 04-14-2014, 11:23 PM   #47
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So anyhow... the whole Hydra infiltration kind of makes me look at Item 47 in a whole new light... why Sitwell was so eager to bring known criminals into shield like that...
They need to follow up on this, if only so I can have more Lizzy Caplan in my life.

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Old 04-14-2014, 11:29 PM   #48
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Can we just make Lizzy Caplan Jessica Drew and call it a day?

I'm straight(ish), but my levels of crushing on her are EPIC! EPIC!! And I need her in more Marvel movies ASAP!

OH GOD COULD YOU IMAGINE CAPLAN AS JAN VAN DYNE OMG MY HEART EXPLODED WHY DID YOU CAST LILLY AS VAN DYNE MARVEL GODS?!?! *shakes fist at Feige*

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Old 04-15-2014, 12:52 AM   #49
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Default Re: Captain America: The Winter Soldier - User Review Thread! - SPOILERS! - Part 2

Everyone cut out the fighting. It is useless and only making other posters who want to engage in INTELLIGENT conversation angry.

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Old 04-15-2014, 12:57 AM   #50
Suzanne78
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Default Re: Captain America: The Winter Soldier - User Review Thread! - SPOILERS! - Part 2

THANKS SPIDER-FAN!!

As I was saying….

Lizzy Caplan. Bring her back as Jessica Drew?

Or… cast her as Bernie Rosenthal and make her Bucky's defense attorney.

I really don't care. I just want more Lizzy in the MCU!!

(does this count as intellectual discussion? )

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