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Old 04-24-2014, 05:40 PM   #51
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In Batman's rogue gallery you can almost interpret them all in realistic and grounded way, except Clayface, Man-Bat, Solomon Grundy and perhaps other I forget. It just depends of the talent and intelligence of the comic/film writter.
That would be nice.

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Old 04-24-2014, 05:45 PM   #52
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Some enemies do offer him challenges that seem beyond his capabilities. I can accept the idea of him having amazing physical and intelectual abilities for a human being. And i repeat: For a human being. But when i see him surviving being thrown around by superhuman villains and actually being able to beat them, i think we can no longer call him human. He is showing the same kind of invulnerability that we see in other heroes who have powers.
I would just chalk most of that up to basic movie/comic book logic. Nolan did a ton of that (How does the Joker survive the flipped truck? How is Bruce Wayne not paralyzed for life by the end of Rises? Who cares, it's a comic-book movie.) I'm not saying he shouldn't have difficulties or be vulnerable occasionally, but I don't have a problem with him being somewhat idealized in terms of his abilities.

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I think beating up real life gangsters on a daily basis and surviving mob attacks is already too far-fetched for a human being. You add aliens, robots and mutants to the equation and we´re no longer dealing with a human.

I can see plenty of fun in a Batman who doesn´t have to deal with Clayface, Man-Bat, Robots and Aliens. But hey, that´s me. "Fun" is subjective.
Okay, seriously, where do you see robots or aliens in Batman's main Rouge's Gallery?? Name one robot or alien in that group that isn't some one-shot Silver Age joke character! Because I honestly don't remember one!

Sorry about that. More on point: yes, you could make a fun movie without all the absurd characters and crazy science....but it wouldn't be a fun Batman movie. At best, it would just be a guy in a Batman costume punching guys in business suits and occasionally getting the crap kicked out of him. I guess it's a matter of opinion, but to me, if you go out of your way to make Batman and his world "normal", then you're watering down a crucial part of the series' appeal.

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Old 04-24-2014, 05:57 PM   #53
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I would just chalk most of that up to basic movie/comic book logic. Nolan did a ton of that (How does the Joker survive the flipped truck? How is Bruce Wayne not paralyzed for life by the end of Rises? Who cares, it's a comic-book movie.) I'm not saying he shouldn't have difficulties or be vulnerable occasionally, but I don't have a problem with him being somewhat idealized in terms of his abilities.

.
Everything about this is far-fetched. But it comes to a point where i can no longer pretend that something could actually happen. It´s all make believe, but that doesn´t mean you can´t have some limits. For some reason i can swallow more easily the idea of someone surviving a car crash than the idea of a human beating up giant monsters with his fists. It just doesn´t work for me. It´s just too much. Way too much. You might as well just give him super powers.

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Okay, seriously, where do you see robots or aliens in Batman's main Rouge's Gallery??
I´m not even talking about "rouge´s gallery". I´m simply saying i´m not interested in seeing Batman fight robots, aliens and mutants. And that´s something i´ve seen in comics and tv shows.

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Old 04-24-2014, 06:12 PM   #54
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Default Re: What do you want from future Batman movies?

Magical realism.

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Old 04-24-2014, 06:23 PM   #55
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Default Re: What do you want from future Batman movies?

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Some enemies do offer him challenges that seem beyond his capabilities. I can accept the idea of him having amazing physical and intelectual abilities for a human being. And i repeat: For a human being. But when i see him surviving being thrown around by superhuman villains and actually being able to beat them, i think we can no longer call him human. He is showing the same kind of invulnerability that we see in other heroes who have powers.

I think beating up real life gangsters on a daily basis and surviving mob attacks is already too far-fetched for a human being. You add aliens, robots and mutants to the equation and we´re no longer dealing with a human.
Very true.

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In Batman's rogue gallery you can almost interpret them all in realistic and grounded way, except Clayface, Man-Bat, Solomon Grundy and perhaps other I forget. It just depends of the talent and intelligence of the writter (comic or film).
You can interpret Croc, Freeze, Ivy and even Clayface in a "realistic" way. When Clayface debuted he was a character that you can easily take and put into a Nolan film with the odd adjustment.

Man-Bat, Solomon Grundy, Danny Devito's Penguin or the aliens that he fights in the Justice League is all extremely far-fetched.

Batman, without the help of some super-powered Iron Man-esque suit, which we'll be getting in the upcoming movies, shouldn't be going up against these kind of threats.

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I´m not even talking about "rouge´s gallery". I´m simply saying i´m not interested in seeing Batman fight robots, aliens and mutants. And that´s something i´ve seen in comics and tv shows.
I can swallow it if he upgrades his suit during one cold month of winter, going up against Mr. Freeze. A Freeze that is slightly more grounded (or a suit that is explained better) works. Or in a Justice League movie.

But if he's in Gotham, he shouldn't be going up against monsters, demons, aliens, robots, zombies. I prefer the mobsters & criminally insane.

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Old 04-24-2014, 06:37 PM   #56
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Default Re: What do you want from future Batman movies?

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Everything about this is far-fetched. But it comes to a point where i can no longer pretend that something could actually happen. It´s all make believe, but that doesn´t mean you can´t have some limits. For some reason i can swallow more easily the idea of someone surviving a car crash than the idea of a human beating up giant monsters with his fists. It just doesn´t work for me. It´s just too much. Way too much. You might as well just give him super powers.



I´m not even talking about "rouge´s gallery". I´m simply saying i´m not interested in seeing Batman fight robots, aliens and mutants. And that´s something i´ve seen in comics and tv shows.
Okay, I understand now. But from what I can tell, no one here is suggesting we put robots or aliens in it, so your fears are somewhat unfounded.

I agree having Batman defeat Man-Bat or Clayface with his bare hands would be stupid...but that's not what Batman does. In most comics and cartoons I've seen, Batman generally uses his scientific knowledge to figure out their weakness and immobilize them (putting together a special device, freezing them, returning them to their human form, etc.) Even with villains like the Joker, he usually has to outsmart him and foil his plan before getting into a fistfight with him (if he does at all). He's a thinker first and a brawler second.

There. I hope that clarified things a bit.

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Old 04-24-2014, 07:31 PM   #57
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Okay, I understand now. But from what I can tell, no one here is suggesting we put robots or aliens in it, so your fears are somewhat unfounded.

I agree having Batman defeat Man-Bat or Clayface with his bare hands would be stupid...but that's not what Batman does. In most comics and cartoons I've seen, Batman generally uses his scientific knowledge to figure out their weakness and immobilize them (putting together a special device, freezing them, returning them to their human form, etc.) Even with villains like the Joker, he usually has to outsmart him and foil his plan before getting into a fistfight with him (if he does at all). He's a thinker first and a brawler second.

There. I hope that clarified things a bit.
I think we can both agree that he has done that in comics and tv shows. I´ve seen him handling mutants in hand 2 hand combat situations. There´s almost always a combat situation. Even if he doesn´t win the combat, he always survives it.

Everything is valid and this is just a matter of opinion. I love the "realistic" and human aspects of Batman and his universe. To me that´s what makes Batman so special and different. With Batman i expect to have something different from what i get by reading and watching Superman, Spider-Man, etc. Something more serious, more relatable, more grounded. Otherwise everything becomes the same.

BTW, do you know this guy?



He would be great as a mobster in a Batman movie. He would be a great villain. Tons of charisma and presence.

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Old 04-24-2014, 08:05 PM   #58
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I think we can both agree that he has done that in comics and tv shows. I´ve seen him handling mutants in hand 2 hand combat situations. There´s almost always a combat situation. Even if he doesn´t win the combat, he always survives it.

Everything is valid and this is just a matter of opinion. I love the "realistic" and human aspects of Batman and his universe. To me that´s what makes Batman so special and different. With Batman i expect to have something different from what i get by reading and watching Superman, Spider-Man, etc. Something more serious, more relatable, more grounded. Otherwise everything becomes the same.
I get what you're saying, and obviously it's a matter of interpretation. I just think it would get boring to have Batman only fight mobsters all the time. He's a professional crimefighter, he deserves a challenge.

That's not to say we needto bring out Clayface or Man-Bat (frankly, I could live without either of them), but I wouldn't mind a little color. Joker, Penguin, Riddler and the rest, are mostly ordinary humans with disfigurements and/or mental illness, but they all have their own unique designs, personalities, even modus operandi. They're colorful, in every sense of the word, and I would like to see that captured on screen.

As far as Batman, I would like to see his analytical mind and scientific knowledge displayed as much (if not moreso) than his combat skills. I want to see him use his gadgets, manipulate his enemies, think his way out of a situation. If an enemy has super-strength, he'll give himself stronger armor and lure the guy into a trap. I can't speak for all the various incarnations out there, but that's what I've seen him do most often.

So we have a self-made crimefighter battling a series of colorful psychopaths and criminals. I think that's realistic enough.

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Old 04-24-2014, 08:24 PM   #59
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I would just chalk most of that up to basic movie/comic book logic. Nolan did a ton of that (How does the Joker survive the flipped truck? How is Bruce Wayne not paralyzed for life by the end of Rises? Who cares, it's a comic-book movie.) I'm not saying he shouldn't have difficulties or be vulnerable occasionally, but I don't have a problem with him being somewhat idealized in terms of his abilities.

it would just be a guy in a Batman costume punching guys in business suits and occasionally getting the crap kicked out of him. I guess it's a matter of opinion, but to me, if you go out of your way to make Batman and his world "normal", then you're watering down a crucial part of the series' appeal.
1.) Magical realism to explain Joker's/Bane's/Bruce's tsunamis of good luck.

2.) Batman is a guy in a csotume doing those things you mentioned.

3.) If you need the window dressing of the comics to make the series appealing, then there wasn't much substance or worth to begin with.

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Old 04-24-2014, 08:59 PM   #60
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1.) Magical realism to explain Joker's/Bane's/Bruce's tsunamis of good luck.

2.) Batman is a guy in a csotume doing those things you mentioned.

3.) If you need the window dressing of the comics to make the series appealing, then there wasn't much substance or worth to begin with.
1.) And why can't that apply to Batman in general?

2.) I guess, but the "men in suits" he traditionally fights tend to be more visually memorable than "Eric Roberts doing a bad Stallone impression".

3.) I don't know about "window dressing", but some semblance of the designs and character personalities from the comics would be nice.

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Old 04-24-2014, 09:12 PM   #61
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Well, you have to set up a working definition of realism to apply magical realism.

Now, what I mean by magical realism is taking some of the most fantastic villains like Clayface, for example. How would a real city react to a super-powered thug like that? Batman couldn't fight him one on one. It'd be suicide. He'd have to find another way to do it. The trick is grouding these fantastic characters with human emotions and ambitions.

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Old 04-24-2014, 10:32 PM   #62
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Well, you have to set up a working definition of realism to apply magical realism.

Now, what I mean by magical realism is taking some of the most fantastic villains like Clayface, for example. How would a real city react to a super-powered thug like that? Batman couldn't fight him one on one. It'd be suicide. He'd have to find another way to do it. The trick is grouding these fantastic characters with human emotions and ambitions.
Yeah, definitely. I have literally no problem with that. Especially in terms of the characters' emotions. TAS, I think, did a good job of that.

As for villains like Clayface, there are a number of indirect ways Batman can and has defeated. From what I remember of TAS and the like, Batman would usually figure out a way to knock him out or dissolve him. Something like that would be a good way to display Batman's knack for quick thinking, as well as his scientific knowledge, and it wouldn't, IMO, be too unrealistic.

I don't mind grounding Batman, but you can portray a real-world scenario with a number of different lenses. All I'm asking is for some of the outlandish designs and exaggerated personalities of the villains to be carried over to this "real-world", just a bit of visual flair and character. The Arkham games are fairly close to what I'm talking about.

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Old 04-25-2014, 03:29 AM   #63
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Well, you have to set up a working definition of realism to apply magical realism.

Now, what I mean by magical realism is taking some of the most fantastic villains like Clayface, for example. How would a real city react to a super-powered thug like that? Batman couldn't fight him one on one. It'd be suicide. He'd have to find another way to do it. The trick is grouding these fantastic characters with human emotions and ambitions.
But why use Clayface as a villain, when there's tons of other rogues which really have or could have a real link with our reality? Look the possibilities of making a realist Batman movie:

The Joker: a wild radical anarchist/nihilist (like Nolan did him)
Two Face: a radical vigilante/lyncher
Poison Ivy: and eco-terrorist and feminist radical
The Penguin: a corrupt politician or businessman
The Riddler: a hacker or/and a sophisticated criminal
Bane: a very dangerous international terrorist
Scarecrown: a mad-doctor without scruples
Victor Zsasz: a serial killer, obviously

And the list can carry on. I don't see the point in giving a realist treatment to Clayface or Man-Bat having all these really realist characters in the rogues gallery. It looks like a total waste for me.

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Old 04-25-2014, 07:49 AM   #64
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But why use Clayface as a villain, when there's tons of other rogues which really have or could have a real link with our reality? Look the possibilities of making a realist Batman movie:

The Joker: a wild radical anarchist/nihilist (like Nolan did him)
Two Face: a radical vigilante/lyncher
Poison Ivy: and eco-terrorist and feminist radical
The Penguin: a corrupt politician or businessman
The Riddler: a hacker or/and a sophisticated criminal
Bane: a very dangerous international terrorist
Scarecrown: a mad-doctor without scruples
Victor Zsasz: a serial killer, obviously

And the list can carry on. I don't see the point in giving a realist treatment to Clayface or Man-Bat having all these really realist characters in the rogues gallery. It looks like a total waste for me.
The only good ones from your list were done by Nolan. The rest are Joker copycats.

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Old 04-25-2014, 08:17 AM   #65
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>Poison Ivy
>Joker copycat

>Riddler
>Joker copycat

>The Penguin
>Joker copycat


Hold on, my sides are in orbit at that.

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Old 04-25-2014, 09:13 AM   #66
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The only good ones from your list were done by Nolan. The rest are Joker copycats.
No, they aren't. Maybe have links, because all are criminals, but they aren't copycats. Joker is pure chaos, while Poison Ivy is centered in the environment and the rights of women, Penguin in the money and the luxury, Two Faces in getting a true justice and Riddler in demonstrate he's the most intelligent. They're all nuanced and interesting, it's not necessary to put fantasy on them to make a great Batman film.

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Old 04-25-2014, 12:00 PM   #67
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As far as im concerned, we've seen that about 5 times already. Batman being a badass on film, is almost a given.

I feel like the guy in TDKR couldn't manage to hit me at 55 years old and a few years of martial arts in my youth. The Bane / Batman fight scenes were painful lumbering fights that seemed more tuned to low IQ thugs that well trained combatants.. Almost any standard action hero would have destroyed Bane.

Either one be a speed bump for young Arnold, Jet lee or Jason Statham. Heck , my old Karate instructor from college would annihilate them.( to be fair he was a 6th degree Black belt but he wasn't a near mythic character)


I want to see a nimble fast visually competent Batman not a ponderous brawler.

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Old 04-25-2014, 12:54 PM   #68
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But why use Clayface as a villain, when there's tons of other rogues which really have or could have a real link with our reality? Look the possibilities of making a realist Batman movie:

The Joker: a wild radical anarchist/nihilist (like Nolan did him)
Two Face: a radical vigilante/lyncher
Poison Ivy: and eco-terrorist and feminist radical
The Penguin: a corrupt politician or businessman
The Riddler: a hacker or/and a sophisticated criminal
Bane: a very dangerous international terrorist
Scarecrown: a mad-doctor without scruples
Victor Zsasz: a serial killer, obviously

And the list can carry on. I don't see the point in giving a realist treatment to Clayface or Man-Bat having all these really realist characters in the rogues gallery. It looks like a total waste for me.
Well, you can do that, but what's the point? People love Batman's villains because of how insane and outlandish they are. Why would you want to downplay that just for the sake of "realism"? There's no reason for it.

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Old 04-25-2014, 01:43 PM   #69
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Well, you can do that, but what's the point? People love Batman's villains because of how insane and outlandish they are. Why would you want to downplay that just for the sake of "realism"? There's no reason for it.
No, people love Batman's villains because they represent real aspects of the humanity and society (as Batman himself), the insanity and oddness are typical from comics, an exagerated way to explain this concepts to the kids/teenagers. And I adhere to the facts: The Dark Knight is the most succesful Batman film and ALL the characters are sane (inside the hyperbolic style of the movie), and I'm including the villains (Joker and Two Faces), which know in every moment what they are doing and why, and besides they explain it.

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Old 04-27-2014, 09:21 AM   #70
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Default Re: What do you want from future Batman movies?

Eh...what I'd want from future Batman movies would never happen under the Nolan-Goyer regime/influence, and probably wouldn't go over too terribly well with fans anyway. It'd definitely be a much more sci-fi take on Batman than anything we've seen in live-action - genetic splicing (a la the DCAU/Beyond), a flying Batmobile (a la Beyond, Miller AND Morrison), etc. - and some variation of the Bat-Family (Batman + sidekicks/padawans) would be there.

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Old 04-27-2014, 03:31 PM   #71
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Well, you can do that, but what's the point? People love Batman's villains because of how insane and outlandish they are. Why would you want to downplay that just for the sake of "realism"? There's no reason for it.
If there isn't some element of realism, then there's no tension. Why should I be worried about the hero here, or even care for him? My suggestions aren't so steeped in realism as the TDKT (which is my absolute favorite superhero trilogy). The trick is to set up rules that govern the world and stick to them throughout. Then you can present a series of films in whatever kind of setting you like.

You can't really even apply realism to the TDKT in the way that you suggest. A guy like Batman would be killed on his first night out, or would have been gunned down/incarcerated when he ambushed Gordon in BB. Nolan succeeded at tricking quite a lot of you into thinking you were getting a realistic world when it is, in fact, a very grounded one that plays by the rules set down in BB.

Oswald, what's your definition of being sane? You realize one of those was going to blow up a hospital while the other ranted and raved while holding a child at gunpoint?

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Old 04-28-2014, 08:13 AM   #72
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Oswald, what's your definition of being sane? You realize one of those was going to blow up a hospital while the other ranted and raved while holding a child at gunpoint?
So? Commiting violent acts doesn't mean being insane, look at the police

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Old 04-28-2014, 09:45 AM   #73
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The only good ones from your list were done by Nolan. The rest are Joker copycats.
You're joking right?

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If there isn't some element of realism, then there's no tension. Why should I be worried about the hero here, or even care for him? My suggestions aren't so steeped in realism as the TDKT (which is my absolute favorite superhero trilogy). The trick is to set up rules that govern the world and stick to them throughout. Then you can present a series of films in whatever kind of setting you like.

You can't really even apply realism to the TDKT in the way that you suggest. A guy like Batman would be killed on his first night out, or would have been gunned down/incarcerated when he ambushed Gordon in BB. Nolan succeeded at tricking quite a lot of you into thinking you were getting a realistic world when it is, in fact, a very grounded one that plays by the rules set down in BB.

Oswald, what's your definition of being sane? You realize one of those was going to blow up a hospital while the other ranted and raved while holding a child at gunpoint?
This doesn't make sense to me at all. Anytime somebody says this, i do this:

If Batman existed in that way, with that suit, with the way he escapes Gordon's office (which is done in a believable manner as if it was real life)..then why would he be killed on his first night out? He would probably manage to keep going for several months if not a few years, which is why Nolan had him active for a short period of time.


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Old 04-29-2014, 07:21 AM   #74
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Default Re: What do you want from future Batman movies?

Im torn. One the one hand i really want a gritty, crime noir kind of Batman film where we really see him as a detective and solving crimes and mysteries. Then on the othet hand I really want to see a Batman film where he takes on rogues like Mr Freeze ( he deserves another shot) and Man-Bat and Firefly.

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Old 04-29-2014, 07:46 AM   #75
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You can do both. A gritty, dark noir. But give it surreal, nightmarish almost horror movie elements.

Think something like Angel Heart, with Batman.

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