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Old 05-10-2014, 07:29 PM   #151
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Default Re: The Official Zack Snyder Directs Everything Thread - Part 1

BB is only slightly overrated IMO. I don't think MOS is over- or underrated.

As for Snyder: if MOS is of any indication, he has no idea how to properly handle scenes that are supposed to elicit emotional responses. I don't recall feeling anything for anybody during my viewing.

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Old 05-10-2014, 07:33 PM   #152
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Default Re: The Official Zack Snyder Directs Everything Thread - Part 1

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BB is only slightly overrated IMO. I don't think MOS is over- or underrated.

As for Snyder: if MOS is of any indication, he has no idea how to properly handle scenes that are supposed to elicit emotional responses. I don't recall feeling anything for anybody during my viewing.
I felt strongly for several scenes.

How do you think that the scene where Martha talks to Clark in the closet at the school could have been better handled?

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Old 05-10-2014, 07:39 PM   #153
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I felt strongly for several scenes.

How do you think that the scene where Martha talks to Clark in the closet at the school could have been better handled?
With better dialogue, a better child actor, and more time devoted to it in general.

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Old 05-10-2014, 07:41 PM   #154
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With better dialogue, a better child actor, and more time devoted to it in general.

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Old 05-10-2014, 07:41 PM   #155
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With better dialogue, a better child actor, and more time devoted to it in general.
What was wrong with the child actor? Aren't all child actors awful anyway? What I've read is that directors just shoot 100 awful cuts with child actors and keep the best ones.

I thought that "focus on the sound of my voice, like it's an island" was good dialogue.

As for more time, agreed, they should have shown the Kents bond with the baby.

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Old 05-10-2014, 07:43 PM   #156
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Default Re: The Official Zack Snyder Directs Everything Thread - Part 1

I really could have used a Clark/Ma Kent scene between Zod's death and the satellite joke. Ma Kent talking him down and giving him a piece of wisdom to live by from there on out. Something like that.

Would have made the transition between those two scenes far less jarring and emotionally disconnected.

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Old 05-10-2014, 07:50 PM   #157
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Default Re: The Official Zack Snyder Directs Everything Thread - Part 1

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Re-posting my comment from the Ben Affleck as Batman thread and slumcat's response to it, in case he wants to continue that discussion.

I have to agree with TheFlamingCoco that JDklip might be setting the bar a little high by saying Snyder doesn't have any films as good as LOTR, TDK or the original SW trilogy. But then, you could have said the same about Nolan before TDK.

Personally and I know this is an unpopular opinion I would take Man of Steel over Batman Begins any day. Sure, it's probably just that I'm a bigger Superman fan, but I just find myself getting more involved in the movie and the stakes feel like they matter more. The former also has a much more interesting villain and love interest, as well as a more convincing relationship with the hero's parents featuring better actors (does Bruce's mother even have any lines in BB before she dies?).

BB is well done, to be sure, but I've always felt that there was something vaguely contrived about the dialogue. The speeches that characters give in BB sound like something a screenwriter came up with, not something a real person would say (a problem that runs throughout the Dark Knight trilogy). In MOS, even though you have similar kinds of speeches (characters telling Clark how important he is, etc.), they just feel more natural somehow, which is funny considering Snyder is often dismissed as a visual stylist who can't direct actors while Nolan is viewed in the opposite way.

Anyway, my point is that plenty of people were pleased with BB and when Nolan was given another try, he gave us TDK. I'm not saying that BvS will reach that level there appears to be more corporate interference propelling the filmmakers towards a Justice League film, inevitably making the film more of a product than a personal artistic statement but the fact that I preferred MOS over BB means I'm feeling optimistic.

Ultimately, this post expresses my feelings on the matter:



Exactly. It's just a movie, and even in a worst-case scenario, if they were to make bad or mediocre Superman movies from here on out, I will always have S:TM, SII and MOS. When you consider some of the crap blockbusters Hollywood churns out I'm looking at you, Transformers MOS stands as a superior example of modern pop mythology. And even the Transformers movies have their place; sometimes people just want mindless action fun. If the future DC movies were on that level (again, hoping they can do better than that), that would still indicate that they're at least entertaining.

These movies don't have to change my life; they just have to entertain me for a few hours. Still, it's always better if we have a really good movie, and while I will fully acknowledge the flaws of MOS, speaking personally, that movie left an impression on me and continued my appreciation for Zack Snyder as a filmmaker. Looking forward to the sequel.

Funny enough, I think Batman Begins is a better film on paper (in terms of conventional criticism, there's a lot less to rag on it) but I find myself being immersed in the experience of Man of Steel more.





From the bleak world of Krypton, to the oceanic town of Smallville, and the bustling city of Metropolis, MOS was benefited by Snyder's world building abilities and underrated cinematic techniques (The tracking shots in Smallville and handheld photography really helped the film feel alive).

I think Snyder would have gone to town with a character-driven script with Begins, but he did a respectable job with what he had in MOS.

I also think MOS should have been called The Last Son of Krypton, because it's really more of a Kryptonian political thriller featuring Superman than a true origin. While I do think it's an underlying flaw, when viewed that way, the film works. Kal-El is caught between a tragic villain who is torn between predefined concepts of how Krypton should be, and his own failed methods of trying to reform Krypton, with Jor-El trying to allow a future for Krypton without forcing it upon Superman (or Earth for that matter).

So it's really a series of Kryptonian conflicts. One, a Kryptonian rebelling amongst his people,another of a a Kryptonian trying to integrate with earth, and yet another of a Kryptonian trying to destroy it.

And when the film finally becomes a series of physical battles, it's really because there are no other ways for the Kryptonian conflicts to go.

If there is any one theme, it's that characters accidentally place their conflicts on the backs of others. Jor-El's choice to implant the Codex in Kal sent Zod after his Son, Jonathan Kent's decision to force anonymity on Clark causes him to make a troubling choice, Perry White's decision not to print that article prevents people from understanding that there is a good alien force out there, which causes a higher level of paranoia than usual.

This idea kind of raises the stakes, especially within the context of a greater DCU.

But I will gladly admit that Begins was better self-contained and written. I'd even say it's better directed, but I honestly think the types of shots and technical direction is stronger in MOS, and it didn't have a performance as bad as KatyHolmes in it

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Old 05-10-2014, 07:52 PM   #158
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Default Re: The Official Zack Snyder Directs Everything Thread - Part 1

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What was wrong with the child actor? Aren't all child actors awful anyway?
You just answered your own question.

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I thought that "focus on the sound of my voice, like it's an island" was good dialogue.
It came out of nowhere. She seemed to know exactly what he was experiencing and how to help him get through it.

"The world's too big, mom!"

What the **** does that mean? How does that imply (to someone who is completely unaware of what he's actually going through) that he's having a hard time controlling his super hearing and X-Ray vision?

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As for more time, agreed, they should have shown the Kents bond with the baby.
I would've loved to see Clark actually enjoying his childhood. It seemed like his life was **** until he turned 33.


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Old 05-10-2014, 07:53 PM   #159
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Default Re: The Official Zack Snyder Directs Everything Thread - Part 1

The only setting I felt come anywhere near as close to Gotham in Man of Steel was Krypton. Metropolis and Smallville felt like afterthoughts in comparison.

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Old 05-10-2014, 07:57 PM   #160
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You just answered your own question.

It came out of nowhere. She seemed to know exactly what he was experiencing and how to help him get through it.

"The world's too big, mom!"

What the **** does that mean? How does that imply that he's having a hard time controlling his super hearing and X-Ray vision?

I would've loved to see Clark actually enjoying his childhood. It seemed like his life was **** until he turned 33.
I really think that's Goyer. Now, it's possible that Snyder said, "His childhood is too happy, let's not film those scenes." But I doubt it. Keep in mind that he only jumped on board MOS once Nolan personally chatted with him.

I hate to sound fatalistic, but a lot of MOS was probably this way before Snyder took the reigns. Though I'm fairly certain there wouldn't be a "tentacle scene" if Nolan directed :P

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Old 05-10-2014, 08:04 PM   #161
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Default Re: The Official Zack Snyder Directs Everything Thread - Part 1

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I really think that's Goyer. Now, it's possible that Snyder said, "His childhood is too happy, let's not film those scenes." But I doubt it. Keep in mind that he only jumped on board MOS once Nolan personally chatted with him.
I don't mind being shown that Clark's childhood wasn't all sunshine and rainbows. Realistically speaking, it wouldn't be, and showing that is a great way to establish pathos. That said: you need to balance that **** out. The only flashback scene I would describe as remotely happy was the one where he was running around with the red cape.

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I hate to sound fatalistic, but a lot of MOS was probably this way before Snyder took the reigns.
Let me tell you: if I had to pick, I'd probably take Bruce Wayne's childhood (as shown in BB) over Clark Kent's. His parents might have died, but at least his whole life wasn't completely depressing.

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Old 05-10-2014, 08:07 PM   #162
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Default Re: The Official Zack Snyder Directs Everything Thread - Part 1

There were happy moments in Clark's childhood, but they're hinted at in an implicit manner.

After the kids bullying him run off because Jonathan Kent intimidated them away, Pete Ross stands behind to extend his hand to Clark and to help him get up. Think about that ... Pete Ross fails to run off with the cool kids, he stays behind to help Clark get up instead. That is the start of a good friendship.

It's hard to imagine a warmer act than what Pete Ross did right there.

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Old 05-10-2014, 08:07 PM   #163
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Default Re: The Official Zack Snyder Directs Everything Thread - Part 1

I think Goyer and/or Snyder were focusing on what would realistically happen to an alien growing up on Earth. His life would be much like that or worse in a world like ours.

As for the complaints about that closet scene: That child actor was no worse than they usually are and of course Ma knew exactly how to help him/what he was going through. She's his mom. She'd probably had experiences like that before with him.

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Old 05-10-2014, 08:17 PM   #164
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Default Re: The Official Zack Snyder Directs Everything Thread - Part 1

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I think Goyer and/or Snyder were focusing on what would realistically happen to an alien growing up on Earth. His life would be much like that or worse in a world like ours.

As for the complaints about that closet scene: That child actor was no worse than they usually are and of course Ma knew exactly how to help him/what he was going through. She's his mom. She'd probably had experiences like that before with him.
Clark should buy Martha a "world's best mom" coffee mug in the sequel, she's earned it.

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Old 05-10-2014, 08:32 PM   #165
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Default Re: The Official Zack Snyder Directs Everything Thread - Part 1

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Clark should buy Martha a "world's best mom" coffee mug in the sequel, she's earned it.

He should. It can't be easy to raise some alien boy.

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Old 05-10-2014, 08:44 PM   #166
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I don't mind being shown that Clark's childhood wasn't all sunshine and rainbows. Realistically speaking, it wouldn't be, and showing that is a great way to establish pathos. That said: you need to balance that **** out. The only flashback scene I would describe as remotely happy was the one where he was running around with the red cape.



Let me tell you: if I had to pick, I'd probably take Bruce Wayne's childhood (as shown in BB) over Clark Kent's. His parents might have died, but at least his whole life wasn't completely depressing.
Yep. Wayne had a more balanced childhood. I do think that BB has a better tone than MOS.

I just like the overall variety, for lack of a better word, in MOS.
It's weird that I think Begins is better told, but I think MOS is better watched :P

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Old 05-10-2014, 08:49 PM   #167
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There were happy moments in Clark's childhood, but they're hinted at in an implicit manner.
Naturally. I don't doubt that he experienced moments of happiness growing up. We were shown at least one of those moments. The problem (unless we were supposed to feel sorry for Clark because his childhood was so crappy [and I think we were]) is that we were exposed to more of his negative experiences than his positive experiences, and because of that, a lot of people assumed that those experiences were the ones that shaped (or made up) his childhood.

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After the kids bullying him run off because Jonathan Kent intimidated them away, Pete Ross stands behind to extend his hand to Clark and to help him get up. Think about that ... Pete Ross fails to run off with the cool kids, he stays behind to help Clark get up instead. That is the start of a good friendship.

It's hard to imagine a warmer act than what Pete Ross did right there.
How about speaking up and stopping the other kids from bullying him instead of just standing there and letting it happen? He extended a hand when it was least inconvenient for him to do so, and not a moment before.

Don't get me wrong; Pete was a child. I think it would be unfair to hold him to the same standard of morality that one would an adult. Most children typically wouldn't stand up for the "freak" in front of their "cool" friends, so I don't hold it against him. However: I don't think his actions were anything to applaud.

Also: I really doubt they developed a friendship. Clark didn't even mention his name once he got back into town and only spared him a glance when they crossed paths again.

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I think Goyer and/or Snyder were focusing on what would realistically happen to an alien growing up on Earth. His life would be much like that or worse in a world like ours.
In some respects, yes. It wouldn't necessarily be all doom and gloom, though.

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As for the complaints about that closet scene: That child actor was no worse than they usually are...
I never said he was. However, being just as good as everyone else doesn't make your limited abilities to elicit an emotional response more forgivable or the scene any more impactful.

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...and of course Ma knew exactly how to help him/what he was going through. She's his mom.
That makes literally no sense.

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She'd probably had experiences like that before with him.
Unless I'm interpreting the scene wrong, that was his first time experiencing either of those abilities. Therefore, she should have no idea what he's experiencing or how to help him. She would've been wise to expect him to develop other abilities and be prepared to help him however she possibly could, but just popping and knowing exactly how to assist him in controlling his new abilities with very little information about what's bothering him in the first place makes no sense to me.

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Old 05-10-2014, 08:57 PM   #168
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That makes literally no sense.

Unless I'm interpreting the scene wrong, that was his first time experiencing either of those abilities. Therefore, she should have no idea what he's experiencing or how to help him. She would've been wise to expect him to develop other abilities and be prepared to help him however she possibly could, but just popping and knowing exactly how to help him with very little information about what's bothering him in the first place makes no sense to me.
You know I don't mind debating with you, but this one is dubious. It seems like you're reaching for stuff to complain about here. What part of "she's his mom and therefore knows her son" doesn't "literally" make any sense? I doubt this is the first "weird thing" that's ever happened with Clark. When he was in the closet, the other kids were out there talking about how weird he was and how his parents never let him play with other kids. Why would they say that if he'd never had any weird experiences or manifested any powers? We're never told this is the first time this has happened, but we do know about the other kids talking. It's right there in the movie. Ma Kent knew his powers were acting up and how to help him.

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Old 05-10-2014, 09:10 PM   #169
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I never gave the happiness of Clark's childhood a second thought. The movie isn't called A BRIEF OVERVIEW OF CLARK'S CHILDHOOD.

Part of the story involves how certain childhood experiences influence a man with godlike powers, and films tend to revolve around the exploration of key conflict. So the movie presented Clark's core conflicts. I figured he was just a normal kid, except for the ways he wasn't, which is what the film focused on. Seems kind of silly to assume he had a completely miserable childhood just because he had some weighty issues to deal with during a few key moments in his childhood. What else do we need to assume because its not shown? That he didn't have any favorite TV shows, etc?

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Old 05-10-2014, 09:14 PM   #170
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Default Re: The Official Zack Snyder Directs Everything Thread - Part 1

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You know I don't mind debating with you, but this one is dubious. It seems like you're reaching for stuff to complain about here.
Not really.

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What part of "she's his mom and therefore knows her son" doesn't "literally" make any sense?
Because being his mother does not automatically enable her to instantly know what is affecting him and how to help him, especially when all she has to go on is incredibly vague information that, without context, should mean absolutely nothing to her. Expecting problems and knowing how to handle them aren't the same thing.

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I doubt this is the first "weird thing" that's ever happened with Clark.
Not every weird thing that happens to him will yield the same solution. Telling him to imagine an island out in the ocean won't do anything to help control his super strength or turn off his heat vision.

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When he was in the closet, the other kids were out there talking about how weird he was and how his parents never let him play with other kids. Why would they say that if he'd never had any weird experiences or manifested any powers?
You are completely missing the point.

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We're never told this is the first time this has happened...
I'm not saying that was the first time Clark developed superpowers. I'm saying it was the first time he experienced those specific abilities. Therefore, she should not know exactly how to help him, because she doesn't know what's wrong.

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Ma Kent knew his powers were acting up and how to help him.
And she shouldn't have based on the information she was given.

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Old 05-10-2014, 09:17 PM   #171
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Default Re: The Official Zack Snyder Directs Everything Thread - Part 1

^ You honestly don't think his super hearing ever happened before? He told her the "world is too big." She realized that was in reference to him hearing all these sounds and got him to focus on her voice. She'd probably done this before with him. I'm too lazy to say anything more about it than that.

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Old 05-10-2014, 09:18 PM   #172
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Default Re: The Official Zack Snyder Directs Everything Thread - Part 1

I figured she was just being a good mother. Refocusing his attention.

The kid was hiding in a closet. He told her what was wrong, and she realized that he needed to be able to shut out all those things to stop freaking out. So she told him to focus on her voice, in other words, on her presence.

It shouldn't matter whether she knew he had powers or not. Kid could have been having an anxiety attack, and it'd be a similar situation.

I don't see the issue.

It's basically a scene designed to say "I know you're in pain, I'm here for you, focus on that".

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Old 05-10-2014, 09:36 PM   #173
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Default Re: The Official Zack Snyder Directs Everything Thread - Part 1

I read the novelization and Clark had problems with his powers manifesting that the Kents had to struggle to deal with since he was a baby. Martha already knew of Clark's extraordinary hearing ability due to an earlier incident. So,yeah, totally reaching.

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Old 05-10-2014, 09:44 PM   #174
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Default Re: The Official Zack Snyder Directs Everything Thread - Part 1

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^ You honestly don't think his super hearing ever happened before?
Why would I? What information was I given that would lead me to believe otherwise?

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He told her the "world is too big." She realized that was in reference to him hearing all these sounds and got him to focus on her voice. She'd probably done this before with him. I'm too lazy to say anything more about it than that.
Based on what? An assumption? I didn't see anything in that scene that indicated what you're saying is true. Not an understanding look from Martha, a flashback to an even earlier incident, dialogue that later clarified that it wasn't Clark's first experience dealing with those specific abilities, nothing. So, yeah. My issues with that scene remain.

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I read the novelization...
If it wasn't in the movie, I'm not obligated to know about it. I shouldn't have to go out of my way to learn information that should already be present (one way or another) in the movie. So, no, I'm not reaching, if your response is, "Read the book".

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Old 05-10-2014, 10:00 PM   #175
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Anyway, MrsKent, you were right an incident did happen before. It was one of the scenes they cut out or didn't film. The one where the Kents had taken baby Clark to the clinic and he shattered all the glass within a mile radius by shrieking. Apparently, he found the normally harmless acoustic hearing test the doctor administered excruciating.

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