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Old 05-10-2014, 11:05 PM   #176
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Default Re: The Official Zack Snyder Directs Everything Thread - Part 1

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Why would I? What information was I given that would lead me to believe otherwise?
You answered it already:

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She seemed to know exactly what he was experiencing and how to help him get through it.
Inference. If we're to nitpick the scene apart, the very fact her words indicate a knowing worry, is enough implication that this has likely happened before. Going through flashbacks and whatnot would be unnecessary. The creators expect you to fill in the blanks (which ironically you already did).

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Old 05-10-2014, 11:05 PM   #177
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Default Re: The Official Zack Snyder Directs Everything Thread - Part 1

To me, it was clear by the way Ma Kent was acting that this probably wasn't the first time she'd been called about something weird happening with Clark. She acted like she knew what was happening and how to deal with it because she'd been dealing with raising this alien child for a few years now. The other kids acted like they'd seen/heard stuff like this with Clark before too.

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Old 05-10-2014, 11:15 PM   #178
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Originally Posted by DA_Champion View Post
I'd say that Batman Begins is overrated and Man of Steel is underrated. Among top critics, they're not that different though, in fact they're statistically indistinguishable:

Batman Begins (2005), 63%, 6.5/10, 35 reviews
Man of Steel (2013), 62%, 6.2/10, 37 reviews

Good posts as always, Ayl Van Six.
Thanks! It's surprising their grades were so close, given that BB always seemed to give off the vibe that it was critically acclaimed across the board while the Rotten Tomatoes rating for MOS was shockingly low.

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Funny enough, I think Batman Begins is a better film on paper (in terms of conventional criticism, there's a lot less to rag on it) but I find myself being immersed in the experience of Man of Steel more.





From the bleak world of Krypton, to the oceanic town of Smallville, and the bustling city of Metropolis, MOS was benefited by Snyder's world building abilities and underrated cinematic techniques (The tracking shots in Smallville and handheld photography really helped the film feel alive).

I think Snyder would have gone to town with a character-driven script with Begins, but he did a respectable job with what he had in MOS.

I also think MOS should have been called The Last Son of Krypton, because it's really more of a Kryptonian political thriller featuring Superman than a true origin. While I do think it's an underlying flaw, when viewed that way, the film works. Kal-El is caught between a tragic villain who is torn between predefined concepts of how Krypton should be, and his own failed methods of trying to reform Krypton, with Jor-El trying to allow a future for Krypton without forcing it upon Superman (or Earth for that matter).

So it's really a series of Kryptonian conflicts. One, a Kryptonian rebelling amongst his people,another of a a Kryptonian trying to integrate with earth, and yet another of a Kryptonian trying to destroy it.

And when the film finally becomes a series of physical battles, it's really because there are no other ways for the Kryptonian conflicts to go.

If there is any one theme, it's that characters accidentally place their conflicts on the backs of others. Jor-El's choice to implant the Codex in Kal sent Zod after his Son, Jonathan Kent's decision to force anonymity on Clark causes him to make a troubling choice, Perry White's decision not to print that article prevents people from understanding that there is a good alien force out there, which causes a higher level of paranoia than usual.

This idea kind of raises the stakes, especially within the context of a greater DCU.

But I will gladly admit that Begins was better self-contained and written. I'd even say it's better directed, but I honestly think the types of shots and technical direction is stronger in MOS, and it didn't have a performance as bad as KatyHolmes in it
Wow, that's a great analysis. You pointed out a lot of themes that hadn't even occurred to me. I find there are a lot of layers to MOS that you notice on repeated viewings.

On the question of Clark's childhood, I do think The Boy Scout makes a good point that it would have been nicer if we had seen some happier moments in Clark's childhood. It's one of those little things that one can argue are the little flaws in MOS, where some extra details would have been nice. It's like how we saw little acts of The Avengers helping people in their giant battle at the end, but not so much in MOS. Those little details really help (although they did include something like that in the Battle of Smallville when Supes saves the falling soldier).

Still, I'm going to agree with the posters who said that what we got was ultimately enough. The movie is at least in part about an alien finding his way among humanity, and portraying some crucial moments in his childhood that illustrate that alienation (pun intended) fits with the themes of the movie.

Speaking for myself, I think it doesn't bother me as much because I can use my imagination and draw from all the other depictions of Clark growing up in Smallville -- the Reeve movies, TAS, Smallville the show. Snyder's direction and beautiful cinematography gave me a perfectly good sense of mythical small town America, which is what Smallville is supposed to represent. Even if it's less idealized in this case, I still think he conveyed a sense of warmth from the town, through little things like young Clark running around with his cape in the grassfield. And then there were the scenes where Lana stood up for him on the bus (was she his first romance here too?) or the clear love that Jonathan Kent had for him ("You are my son") ... I don't know, to me scenes like that showed the positive aspects of Clark's youth and helped justify why he stood up for humanity.

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Old 05-10-2014, 11:15 PM   #179
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Default Re: The Official Zack Snyder Directs Everything Thread - Part 1

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Inference. If we're to nitpick the scene apart, the very fact her words indicate a knowing worry, is enough implication that this has likely happened before.
Or bad writing.

I don't see what you're seeing, and I'm trying. I rewatched the scene before I attempted to criticize it and I watched it again while typing this post. If anything, I would say Martha was winging it.

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Going through flashbacks and whatnot would be unnecessary.
I agree. That was simply an example of how they could have made it more clear it wasn't the first time he'd experienced those abilities. A flashback within a flashback would've actually been a bit much.

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The creators expect you to fill in the blanks (which ironically you already did).
I respect that. I really do. But they've got to give me something. I honestly see more to indicate that this is Clark's first time facing this problem than it is a second (or third or fourth) occurrence. I can see why others interpret it differently, but I don't. I suspect the scene was heavily edited (just a guess), so there might have been more dialogue there that would've made it more clear for me. Either way, it isn't a big deal. Hardly anything to get angry over. Peter Ross being a ginger, on the other hand...

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Old 05-11-2014, 12:03 AM   #180
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Default Re: The Official Zack Snyder Directs Everything Thread - Part 1

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Thanks! It's surprising their grades were so close, given that BB always seemed to give off the vibe that it was critically acclaimed across the board while the Rotten Tomatoes rating for MOS was shockingly low.
Almost all CBMs do worse among RT top critics, typically by 10% or more. MoS is one of the few that does better, which I think is further indication that its RT score was an error, a statistical anomaly.

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And I agree with the second half of your post, to me, Clark came off as having had a good childhood.


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Old 05-11-2014, 12:33 AM   #181
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Almost all CBMs do worse among RT top critics, typically by 10% or more. MoS is one of the few that does better, which I think is further indication that its RT score was an error, a statistical anomaly.
It bears repeating; RT scores are a consensus, not a rating.

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Old 05-11-2014, 12:39 AM   #182
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Default Re: The Official Zack Snyder Directs Everything Thread - Part 1

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It bears repeating; RT scores are a consensus, not a rating.
The RT tomato meter is a rating, as per the dictionary definition of "rating". It's a quantitative evaluation.

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Old 05-11-2014, 12:43 AM   #183
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Default Re: The Official Zack Snyder Directs Everything Thread - Part 1

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The RT tomato meter is a rating, as per the dictionary definition of "rating". It's a quantitative evaluation.
Said "rating" is almost always confused with qualitative assessment, which it is not. There is a distinct difference between "70% of the viewers liked it" and "Viewer scores averaged to 70%".

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Old 05-11-2014, 12:46 AM   #184
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Default Re: The Official Zack Snyder Directs Everything Thread - Part 1

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Said "rating" is almost always confused with qualitative assessment, which it is not. There is a distinct difference between "70% of the viewers liked it" and "Viewer scores averaged to 70%".
Pedantically yes, there is a difference, in practice the RT tomato meter correlates very well with quality, top 10 CBMs according to RT:

Dark Knight, 94%, 288 reviews
Spider Man 2, 94%, 248 reviews
Iron Man, 93%, 243 reviews
The Avengers, 92%, 301 reviews
Captain America: The Winter Soldier, 89%, 231 reviews
Spider Man, 89%, 224 reviews
Dark Knight Rises, 88%, 304 reviews
X Men: First Class, 87%, 243 reviews
X Men 2, 87%, 224 reviews
Hellboy 2, 87%, 209 reviews

Perfect? Probably not. Extremely respectable? Definitely.

I take the RT score as a high-quality evaluation with pretty good precision for a human system.

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Old 05-11-2014, 06:01 AM   #185
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The percentage score on RT is worthless, and unrepresentative of the actual average score. I know the ranking wouldn't change all that much if you gave the average rating over the percentage, but it's something that annoys me about their site.

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Old 05-11-2014, 06:12 AM   #186
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The percentage score on RT is worthless, and unrepresentative of the actual average score. I know the ranking wouldn't change all that much if you gave the average rating over the percentage, but it's something that annoys me about their site.
The fact that the rankings wouldn't change all that much tells you that it's a fine methodology. They are in fact quite representative.

Further, pass/fail is more precise than a number out of 10, since in most cases that kind of precision is unwarranted.

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Old 05-11-2014, 06:25 AM   #187
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It's fairly accurate to this specific list. But in the general context of cinema, it's a faulty system. Look at The Lego Movie. It's rating is 96% putting it in probably the top 1% of any films ever made. But it's rating is a much lower 8.1, lower than The Dark Knight.

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Old 05-11-2014, 06:48 AM   #188
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It's fairly accurate to this specific list. But in the general context of cinema, it's a faulty system. Look at The Lego Movie. It's rating is 96% putting it in probably the top 1% of any films ever made. But it's rating is a much lower 8.1, lower than The Dark Knight.
The Lego Movie is a different genre so it's hard to compare. There is probably no rating system that can compare across genres.

Further, in both rating systems, The Lego Movie and The Dark Knight are evaluated as being of similar quality, so I don't see how the comparison favours one system over the other.

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Old 05-11-2014, 06:53 AM   #189
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What the...Watchmen is at 65 % on RT! I knew some(most?) critics didnt like it but thats just too low IMO. Maybe the critics just dont like Snyder?

Dawn Of The Dead: 75 %

300: 60 %¨

Watchmen: 65 %

Legend of the Guardians: 50 %

Sucker Punch: 23%

MOS: 56 %

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Old 05-11-2014, 07:45 AM   #190
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The Lego Movie is a different genre so it's hard to compare. There is probably no rating system that can compare across genres.
But that is the entire purpose of Rotten Tomatoes, to compare every film ever made.

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Further, in both rating systems, The Lego Movie and The Dark Knight are evaluated as being of similar quality, so I don't see how the comparison favours one system over the other.
But there's inconsistency amongst the two ratings. The Lego Movie's two ratings are off by a factor of 15%, that's a huge margin. The 81% mean rating puts Lego Movie as "good" 96% puts it at "masterpiece", or the very least alongside films like12 Years A Slave, Empire Strikes Back, Wolf of Wall Street etc.

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Old 05-11-2014, 09:54 AM   #191
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But that is the entire purpose of Rotten Tomatoes, to compare every film ever made.



But there's inconsistency amongst the two ratings. The Lego Movie's two ratings are off by a factor of 15%, that's a huge margin. The 81% mean rating puts Lego Movie as "good" 96% puts it at "masterpiece", or the very least alongside films like12 Years A Slave, Empire Strikes Back, Wolf of Wall Street etc.
First of all, Empire Strikes Back doesn't have a real rotten tomatoes rating. It's a fake retroactive rating, RT was not around in 1980. RT is totally useless for movies released before RT.

Second, most movies with high grades have a lower score on 10 than their percentage rating.

12 years a slave: 9.0/10, a little higher than lego movie and dark knight, and lower than its 97% tomato rating
wolf of wall street, 7.7/10, similar than dark knight and lego movie.

Lego Movie is still along side Dark Knight and Wolf of Wall Street when using the numerical grade.

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Old 05-11-2014, 10:19 AM   #192
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Second, most movies with high grades have a lower score on 10 than their percentage rating.

12 years a slave: 9.0/10, a little higher than lego movie and dark knight, and lower than its 97% tomato rating
wolf of wall street, 7.7/10, similar than dark knight and lego movie.

Lego Movie is still along side Dark Knight and Wolf of Wall Street when using the numerical grade.
The Lego Movie has 20% markup against Wolf of Wall Street, but only 4% numerical mark up. The Lego Movie has a 3% consensus downgrade from 12 years, but a 10% downgrade numerically. How does that strike you as an appropriate system?

I'm not saying as a guideline it's bad, but it's very prone to making huge mistakes.

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Old 05-11-2014, 10:37 AM   #193
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The Lego Movie has 20% markup against Wolf of Wall Street, but only 4% numerical mark up. The Lego Movie has a 3% consensus downgrade from 12 years, but a 10% downgrade numerically. How does that strike you as an appropriate system?

I'm not saying as a guideline it's bad, but it's very prone to making huge mistakes.
Even though you cherry picked the example to prove your point (which automatically invalidates your argument) you still end up with these small unconvincing differences: 3, 5, 10%.

What huge mistakes have you found? Lego movie downgraded by 15 points rather than later 5 points is one small deviation, and you have not even demonstrated which of the two systems gives a flawed result. Imo lego movie is a great film.

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Old 05-19-2014, 02:10 PM   #194
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Default Re: The Official Zack Snyder Directs Everything Thread - Part 1

Here is the Sam Hamm script that would have been used for the (thankfully) aborted project by Terry Gilliam:

http://www.scifiscripts.com/scripts/wtchmn.txt

Also, some fun facts here:
http://watchmen.wikia.com/wiki/Watch...Hamm_script%29

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Old 05-19-2014, 02:13 PM   #195
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Even though you cherry picked the example to prove your point (which automatically invalidates your argument) you still end up with these small unconvincing differences: 3, 5, 10%.

What huge mistakes have you found? Lego movie downgraded by 15 points rather than later 5 points is one small deviation, and you have not even demonstrated which of the two systems gives a flawed result. Imo lego movie is a great film.
10% is a small difference?

Do you think The Lego Movie is one of the greatest films ever?

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Old 05-19-2014, 02:54 PM   #196
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Here is the Sam Hamm script that would have been used for the (thankfully) aborted project by Terry Gilliam:

http://www.scifiscripts.com/scripts/wtchmn.txt

Also, some fun facts here:
http://watchmen.wikia.com/wiki/Watch...Hamm_script%29
Well in short I think the film we got is arguably the best we could have hoped for and certainly the best out of those alternatives, IMO. The Sam Hamm stuff sounds like it got a third right in the second act of the movie but the other two thirds wrong. I think Snyder did well in comparison, it's just that the movie is very uneven. And I agree, I do think Snyder may have been going for having Ozy be thought of as the villain right from the start, but that takes away from the strength of the material and again shows a failure to I guess "get it" on Snyder's part. Doing a movie of Watchmen is a pretty ambitious thing in and of itself, it's a huge, daunting task, I still think the best way to have done it would have been to do it like hour long film serials released once a month, 12 parts each, each covering a chapter of the book, devoted to covering it all in its entirety (that or HBO specials). The book is something where if you omit things and chop it down you're not getting the full depth of the story. Even little things Snyder did, like having Rorschach chop the guy up instead of lighting him on fire chained up in his house; there was meaning and a reason to why Rorschach did it the way he did in the book, and besides, what was done in the book at that scene was just cooler. The head chop crap was just gore porn and is too bombastic to fit with the rest of the book, IMO. And then there's the whole bit with the psychologist that's been cut out...Rorschach should come off with a certain "apathy" and matter of fact-ness during that whole bit with the psychologist, instead of angry and like someone trying to be a hard ass, like an embodiment of how someone may describe his character, like he does in the few bits of the psychologist sequence that are shown in the movie.

Just my two cents on that. The characters Snyder really got right in the movie were Nite Owl and then Comedian to me. I always envisioned Rorschach being just like he was in the motion comic, the guy that played him there was fantastic, and that goes for Dr Manhattan too, the booming voice the guy used along with his tone and inflections, how he read his dialog was exactly how I imagined Dr Manhattan would sound in real life, so it disappointed me they went with the voices they did in the movie.

Also, the cutting out of Rorschach's fork attack was such an error...that little bit says so much about the character and his determination and desperation and commitment to that which was right no matter what, that he'd make even the feeblest attempts to stop something he saw as conflictive with that if he could, and it's a classic scene in the book. Overall great character moment that should have been in the film and saddened me to have not seen it in there.


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Old 05-19-2014, 03:25 PM   #197
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Well in short I think the film we got is arguably the best we could have hoped for and certainly the best out of those alternatives, IMO. The Sam Hamm stuff sounds like it got a third right in the second act of the movie but the other two thirds wrong. I think Snyder did well in comparison, it's just that the movie is very uneven. And I agree, I do think Snyder may have been going for having Ozy be thought of as the villain right from the start, but that takes away from the strength of the material and again shows a failure to I guess "get it" on Snyder's part. Doing a movie of Watchmen is a pretty ambitious thing in and of itself, it's a huge, daunting task, I still think the best way to have done it would have been to do it like hour long film serials released once a month, 12 parts each, each covering a chapter of the book, devoted to covering it all in its entirety (that or HBO specials). The book is something where if you omit things and chop it down you're not getting the full depth of the story. Even little things Snyder did, like having Rorschach chop the guy up instead of lighting him on fire chained up in his house; there was meaning and a reason to why Rorschach did it the way he did in the book, and besides, what was done in the book at that scene was just cooler. The head chop crap was just gore porn and is too bombastic to fit with the rest of the book, IMO. And then there's the whole bit with the psychologist that's been cut out...Rorschach should come off with a certain "apathy" and matter of fact-ness during that whole bit with the psychologist, instead of angry and like someone trying to be a hard ass, like an embodiment of how someone may describe his character, like he does in the few bits of the psychologist sequence that are shown in the movie.

Just my two cents on that. The characters Snyder really got right in the movie were Nite Owl and then Comedian to me. I always envisioned Rorschach being just like he was in the motion comic, the guy that played him there was fantastic, and that goes for Dr Manhattan too, the booming voice the guy used along with his tone and inflections, how he read his dialog was exactly how I imagined Dr Manhattan would sound in real life, so it disappointed me they went with the voices they did in the movie.

Also, the cutting out of Rorschach's fork attack was such an error...that little bit says so much about the character and his determination and desperation and commitment to that which was right no matter what, that he'd make even the feeblest attempts to stop something he saw as conflictive with that if he could, and it's a classic scene in the book. Overall great character moment that should have been in the film and saddened me to have not seen it in there.
Yeah, they would never have done serials, cool idea though. HBO specials would have been good. I still think that the ending in Hamms script would have ticked off the fans more than the lack of squid in Snyders version.

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Old 05-21-2014, 03:02 AM   #198
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Yeah, they would never have done serials, cool idea though. HBO specials would have been good.
Yeah, I know. I always thought it'd be cool to sort of bring them back in a way...not sure how it'd work in today's day and age though. Watchmen would have been a neat retro type thing to go with though if they did.

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I still think that the ending in Hamms script would have ticked off the fans more than the lack of squid in Snyders version.
Oh absolutely.

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Old 05-21-2014, 04:01 AM   #199
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Thanks! It's surprising their grades were so close, given that BB always seemed to give off the vibe that it was critically acclaimed across the board while the Rotten Tomatoes rating for MOS was shockingly low.
It's because BB's overall (not just top critics) rating is much higher, at 85% vs MOS's 56%. I personally enjoyed both movies roughly equally though, like the top critics. RT emphasizes percentage of critics who recommend a movie, which is useful, but it would be more useful if they showcase both the percentage and the average rating of a movie. A movie 100% of critics barely recommend, like if they all gave it a 6/10, is still a movie I wouldn't really want to rush out and watch, even though 100% recommendation is impressive at first glance.

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Old 05-21-2014, 04:22 AM   #200
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Default Re: The Official Zack Snyder Directs Everything Thread - Part 1

wow

People really love to hate on MOS.


Last edited by Astro13Zombie; 05-21-2014 at 04:39 AM.
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