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Old 05-20-2014, 01:18 AM   #26
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Default Re: All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion - - - Part 55

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I didn't see anything in MOS' SFX that I couldn't notice in any other blockbuster which is SFX heavy. Spider-Man 2 has a ton of CGI you notice. BB has a very noticeable miniature Batmobile going over rooftops. MOS was no different.

MOS is because Superman! Don't you see? Superman has to be twice as good at everything as all other films to get half the recognition.

Superman saves the Earth and all 7 billion inhabitants from Zod?

No good, because he didn't personally rescue anyone from a falling building.

Superman fought off Faora and Nam-Ek?

Too bad he didn't smile and crack jokes while he did.

Superman saved the crew on the platform in the middle of the water?

So? He was on fire and the fire didn't look real enough.

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Old 05-20-2014, 01:22 AM   #27
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Just going to add my two cents here. I've seen MOS 2 times on an IMAX screen, and I can certainly say that this fight scene was as good as the rest and was not hard to follow.

There's a fine line between something that looks too CGI and something that looks so unreal by human standards that it takes our minds time to accept it as real. MOS effects fall into the latter category since they deal with things we have not seen before or seen but at a time when CGI was in it's infancy (Matrix revolutions).
Well, when you're freeze-framing elaborate CGI fight scenes looking for "flaws", you won't have to look far. The human brain knows that CGI isn't real no matter how advanced it may get. It's all about your suspension of disbelief.

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Old 05-20-2014, 01:26 AM   #28
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Default Re: All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion - - - Part 55

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How do you reconcile super beings fighting at incredible speeds then?

But nobody wants Zack to use slow motion? Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

It's not different from a DBZ aerial fight.
I had no trouble following the Smallville fight.

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Old 05-20-2014, 01:27 AM   #29
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Default Re: All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion - - Part 54

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Alright. I FELT as though there were no stakes during the final battle. To ME, it FELT like two superhumans simply brawling in a large city. I did not FEEL the same level of excitement or thrill as I felt in the climaxes of the TDK trilogy or the Avengers. That is how I FELT. To say otherwise is simply false.

I also do not "hate" or "dislike" the film, it's more that I was disappointed by it. No one was as hyped for MoS as myself. Maybe my expectations were too high.
just curious, how would you like the final fight between superman and general Zod to be done?

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Old 05-20-2014, 01:27 AM   #30
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Default Re: All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion - - - Part 55

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Well, when you're freeze-framing elaborate CGI fight scenes looking for "flaws", you won't have to look far. The human brain knows that CGI isn't real no matter how advanced it may get. It's all about your suspension of disbelief.
Well yeah I guess you can put it that way too. Then my suspension of disbelief was pretty high. And just to be clear, I totally agree with what you said earlier.

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How do you reconcile super beings fighting at incredible speeds then?

But nobody wants Zack to use slow motion? Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

It's not different from a DBZ aerial fight.

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Old 05-20-2014, 01:27 AM   #31
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Default Re: All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion - - - Part 55

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Every major creative should watch ASM2, a great example of how to do things wrong !
Indeed. It fell victim to a couple of problems I worry about for BvsS, such as the tonal change and the world building affliction.

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Yeah. This definitely earns him some respect from me. That he isn't above, and won't deny criticism. I do wonder how much Ben Affleck had to do with this decision though.
It might have been Affleck. I guess we'll never know. Whoever was responsible was probably paying attention to the complaints that matter.

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Old 05-20-2014, 02:02 AM   #32
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just curious, how would you like the final fight between superman and general Zod to be done?
I don't have any issues with the actual fighting aspect, Snyder handled that pretty well. I'm more of a kung-fuey hand to hand fighting fan than a super-powered brawl fan, so I don't really have much to say about that.

However, I do feel that the battle as a whole could have been much better directed. A few small changes would have made for a much better finale, imo.

1) Show more than just Superman and Zod brawling.The entire last sequence was just Supes and Zod trading punches. It would have been far more interesting to see the effects of the battle, and to get others involved. One of the strengths of the TDK trilogy is how Nolan gives everyone something to do. Whether it was Gordon taking the Batmobile or chasing the bomb, Blake leading the children to safety, or Fox helping Bruce "see" with the sonar tech, everyone had an important piece in the climax which I feel makes for a better, more effective story.

We didn't see any of Lois, the military, or any other supporting characters during the last battle. Incorporating them into it would have made it seem like more than just a hollow fist fight. Hell, at least show the military rooting for Superman, or something!

2)Add layers to the danger. There was so much more that could have been done to add tension and danger to the final battle, which in turn would have also made Superman more heroic (a big criticism). With all the destruction going on, there were countless ways to give Superman opportunities to be a hero. Make Zod throw a crane into central park, with Kal stopping it just in time (putting himself in a vulnerable position.) ANYTHING! Let Supes save some falling civilians....or let those same civilians attempt (foolishly) to help Superman, or at least root for him! Character moments like this were necessary in the final battle, but there was absolutely nothing at all.

Maybe Zod damages some reactor that will blow and harm thousands? Show Superman dealing with that, through more than brute strength. It's late and I'm blanking out on better examples, but my point stands. There was so much potential for the final battle to make Kal deserving of the name "Superman" (which was given to him in about the most uninspiring way ever).

3) Let them join Superman in the sun. This idea was completely abandoned. There was simply no interaction at all between Superman and the people of Metropolis..even a scene at the end with the people cheering for Superman would have been better than what we got.

I guess if I had to sum it all up in coherent terms: The final battle should have served to make Kal-El into "Superman", the savior of mankind and an inspiration to all. That didn't happen...

I know, people will inevitably reply with things like "oh isn't saving 7 billion people enough" or other simplistic remarks. No, it wasn't enough.

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Old 05-20-2014, 02:27 AM   #33
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Default Re: All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion - - - Part 55

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Indeed. It fell victim to a couple of problems I worry about for BvsS, such as the tonal change and the world building affliction.
I disagree. 'World building' consisted of the last five minutes, if that. But anyway, I loved how we saw Spidey saving people in TASM2. It flourishes there. He felt like a real hero We got a little bit of that in the Smallville fight - saving the military guy from falling, but perhaps more this time around would be better. I'd like to see Supes dealing with the general public and how they react to him.

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Old 05-20-2014, 02:47 AM   #34
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I don't have any issues with the actual fighting aspect, Snyder handled that pretty well. I'm more of a kung-fuey hand to hand fighting fan than a super-powered brawl fan, so I don't really have much to say about that.

However, I do feel that the battle as a whole could have been much better directed. A few small changes would have made for a much better finale, imo.

1) Show more than just Superman and Zod brawling.The entire last sequence was just Supes and Zod trading punches. It would have been far more interesting to see the effects of the battle, and to get others involved. One of the strengths of the TDK trilogy is how Nolan gives everyone something to do. Whether it was Gordon taking the Batmobile or chasing the bomb, Blake leading the children to safety, or Fox helping Bruce "see" with the sonar tech, everyone had an important piece in the climax which I feel makes for a better, more effective story.

We didn't see any of Lois, the military, or any other supporting characters during the last battle. Incorporating them into it would have made it seem like more than just a hollow fist fight. Hell, at least show the military rooting for Superman, or something!

2)Add layers to the danger. There was so much more that could have been done to add tension and danger to the final battle, which in turn would have also made Superman more heroic (a big criticism). With all the destruction going on, there were countless ways to give Superman opportunities to be a hero. Make Zod throw a crane into central park, with Kal stopping it just in time (putting himself in a vulnerable position.) ANYTHING! Let Supes save some falling civilians....or let those same civilians attempt (foolishly) to help Superman, or at least root for him! Character moments like this were necessary in the final battle, but there was absolutely nothing at all.

Maybe Zod damages some reactor that will blow and harm thousands? Show Superman dealing with that, through more than brute strength. It's late and I'm blanking out on better examples, but my point stands. There was so much potential for the final battle to make Kal deserving of the name "Superman" (which was given to him in about the most uninspiring way ever).

3) Let them join Superman in the sun. This idea was completely abandoned. There was simply no interaction at all between Superman and the people of Metropolis..even a scene at the end with the people cheering for Superman would have been better than what we got.

I guess if I had to sum it all up in coherent terms: The final battle should have served to make Kal-El into "Superman", the savior of mankind and an inspiration to all. That didn't happen...

I know, people will inevitably reply with things like "oh isn't saving 7 billion people enough" or other simplistic remarks. No, it wasn't enough.
100% agree. Bookending it with the "You know they say it all goes downhill after the first kiss" and "he's kinda hot" jokes didn't help as well. That said, I'm confident Affleck and Terrio's involvement should smooth over any such wrinkles in BvS' script.

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Old 05-20-2014, 02:47 AM   #35
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Default Re: All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion - - Part 54

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I don't have any issues with the actual fighting aspect, Snyder handled that pretty well. I'm more of a kung-fuey hand to hand fighting fan than a super-powered brawl fan, so I don't really have much to say about that.

However, I do feel that the battle as a whole could have been much better directed. A few small changes would have made for a much better finale, imo.

1) Show more than just Superman and Zod brawling.The entire last sequence was just Supes and Zod trading punches. It would have been far more interesting to see the effects of the battle, and to get others involved. One of the strengths of the TDK trilogy is how Nolan gives everyone something to do. Whether it was Gordon taking the Batmobile or chasing the bomb, Blake leading the children to safety, or Fox helping Bruce "see" with the sonar tech, everyone had an important piece in the climax which I feel makes for a better, more effective story.

We didn't see any of Lois, the military, or any other supporting characters during the last battle. Incorporating them into it would have made it seem like more than just a hollow fist fight. Hell, at least show the military rooting for Superman, or something!

2)Add layers to the danger. There was so much more that could have been done to add tension and danger to the final battle, which in turn would have also made Superman more heroic (a big criticism). With all the destruction going on, there were countless ways to give Superman opportunities to be a hero. Make Zod throw a crane into central park, with Kal stopping it just in time (putting himself in a vulnerable position.) ANYTHING! Let Supes save some falling civilians....or let those same civilians attempt (foolishly) to help Superman, or at least root for him! Character moments like this were necessary in the final battle, but there was absolutely nothing at all.

Maybe Zod damages some reactor that will blow and harm thousands? Show Superman dealing with that, through more than brute strength. It's late and I'm blanking out on better examples, but my point stands. There was so much potential for the final battle to make Kal deserving of the name "Superman" (which was given to him in about the most uninspiring way ever).

3) Let them join Superman in the sun. This idea was completely abandoned. There was simply no interaction at all between Superman and the people of Metropolis..even a scene at the end with the people cheering for Superman would have been better than what we got.

I guess if I had to sum it all up in coherent terms: The final battle should have served to make Kal-El into "Superman", the savior of mankind and an inspiration to all. That didn't happen...

I know, people will inevitably reply with things like "oh isn't saving 7 billion people enough" or other simplistic remarks. No, it wasn't enough.
Some nice points right there.. And I agree with you..

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Old 05-20-2014, 02:49 AM   #36
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Default Re: All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion - - Part 54

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3) Let them join Superman in the sun. This idea was completely abandoned. There was simply no interaction at all between Superman and the people of Metropolis..even a scene at the end with the people cheering for Superman would have been better than what we got.
=
No it wasn't. Kind of a ridiculous thing to say considering there will be sequels. Why on Earth would all of that need to take place in the first movie? You really think Jor-El gave Superman that message with the intentions of Zod coming to Earth and Superman fighting him?

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Old 05-20-2014, 02:57 AM   #37
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Default Re: All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion - - - Part 55

I think the whole "they will stumble, they will fall, but in time they will join you in the sun" thing applies to Hardy and the military guys he personally saves in the movie.

At first they try to kill him, but because he selflessly sticks his neck out for them, he earns their trust, and they save the world together.


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Old 05-20-2014, 03:03 AM   #38
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Default Re: All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion - - - Part 55

I think they should have at least touched on people "joining him in the sum." I feel it was too early for him to be fully accepted or cheered for, but they should have hinted more at what is hopefully to come.

I've said this before, but oh well: During the scene that had supes clinging to Lois after killing Zod, he should have heard a cry for help and snapped out of his gloom. He would then start pulling people out of the rubble and helping them. People would be scared at first because all they had seen was him and someone else wreaking havoc. But after seeing him help others, more would come out and start calling out to him. Superman would appear emotional as well, partly because of these events and partly because he was witnessing humanity start to trust him.

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Old 05-20-2014, 03:06 AM   #39
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I think the whole "they will stumble, they will fall, but in time they will join you in the sun" thing applies to Hardy and the military guys he personally saves in the movie.
I think Hardy and the military guys are a representation of the process humanity will go through with Superman.

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Old 05-20-2014, 03:07 AM   #40
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I think they should have at least touched on people "joining him in the sum." I feel it was too early for him to be fully accepted or cheered for, but they should have hinted more at what is hopefully to come.

I've said this before, but oh well: During the scene that had supes clinging to Lois after killing Zod, he should have heard a cry for help and snapped out of his gloom. He would then start pulling people out of the rubble and helping them. People would be scared at first because all they had seen was him and someone else wreaking havoc. But after seeing him help others, more would come out and start calling out to him. Superman would appear emotional as well, partly because of these events and partly because he was witnessing humanity start to trust him.
Agreed. Cheering wasn't needed; just people realizing that he was the one who saved them all. He was the one who restored hope. They have the line from Jenny, but perhaps it's not indicative enough of the public at large.

Would it have been too on the nose if one of the shots of him saving people in the rubble was him helping kids out of a school-bus ? This time without having to hide afterwards?


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Old 05-20-2014, 03:07 AM   #41
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Default Re: All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion - - - Part 55

"This man... is not our enemy."

Love that moment. Loved Hardy too, even as a minor support player.

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Old 05-20-2014, 03:10 AM   #42
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Hardy was cool. I wish he had survived.

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Old 05-20-2014, 03:11 AM   #43
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I think the whole "they will stumble, they will fall, but in time they will join you in the sun" thing applies to Hardy and the military guys he personally saves in the movie.

At first they try to kill him, but because he selflessly sticks his neck out for them, he earns their trust, and they save the world together.
But that's trust rather than inspiration, "an ideal to strive towards". They will be up in arms and sacrificing themselves for the world with or without Superman because they are soldiers. Perhaps Jor-El should have said something less grandiose in addition to the All-Star line along the lines of "but you must earn their trust first, work alongside them."

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I think they should have at least touched on people "joining him in the sum." I feel it was too early for him to be fully accepted or cheered for, but they should have hinted more at what is hopefully to come.

I've said this before, but oh well: During the scene that had supes clinging to Lois after killing Zod, he should have heard a cry for help and snapped out of his gloom. He would then start pulling people out of the rubble and helping them. People would be scared at first because all they had seen was him and someone else wreaking havoc. But after seeing him help others, more would come out and start calling out to him. Superman would appear emotional as well, partly because of these events and partly because he was witnessing humanity start to trust him.
You really should consult for the franchise! Some great ideas there, MrsKent.

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Old 05-20-2014, 03:14 AM   #44
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Default Re: All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion - - - Part 55

Maybe this movie needed a Foley

And they totally should have had Lois turning Clark's attention to the family he saved too. Have her be the one who restores his hope and picks him up off his knees.


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Old 05-20-2014, 03:17 AM   #45
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Old 05-20-2014, 03:39 AM   #46
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Default Re: All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion - - - Part 55

I hope Synder and the writing is a lot more focused for this project. All the lines taken from comics in MoS, such as 'They will join you in the sun' and 'On my world it stands for hope' are plucked from their source material but have zero effect or meaning on the film surrounding them. The presence of people of Metropolis themselves, heck this living, breathing, sprawling city itself is barely felt in the film. It's just a CGI backdrop which gets more and more destroyed until it ends up looking like ground zero at a nuke blast. But people misplace the blame. It's Synder's fault, not Superman's.

I think for the climax, Synder and Goyer were too aware of the complaints about Superman films, how he'd infamously 'never' thrown a proper punch, and they wanted to create the best super hero shown down they could. But they turned the fighting and destruction up to 11, totally forgetting about everything else in the meantime. The human element, the balance needed, the heroic part of being a super hero. Any number of super powered beings in the DC and Marvel universe could have done what this Superman does in the fight. What is there to make Superman Superman?

The last citizens of Metropolis we see, get to watch Superman break the bad guys neck in front of them. Did he do what was necessary in the no win scenario he was written into? Yes. But how is that meant to inspire hope? How does death by cop tie in with the talky bits that crop up in-between all the action this film has? Anyone watching the film feel particularly hopeful by that point? They changed that scene as the ending, but did they change anything else about the film to reflect it? Doesn't seem so, because 'I just think he's hot.'

I'm really hopeful for SvB though. To contrast Superman with Batman, they're going to have to make Superman the more classic version of himself, one who has more interactions with the public, and has the reporter persona. This new film has to show to audiences why each hero is special, and I think that means good things for Superman fans.

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Old 05-20-2014, 03:43 AM   #47
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Default Re: All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion - - Part 54

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I don't have any issues with the actual fighting aspect, Snyder handled that pretty well. I'm more of a kung-fuey hand to hand fighting fan than a super-powered brawl fan, so I don't really have much to say about that.

However, I do feel that the battle as a whole could have been much better directed. A few small changes would have made for a much better finale, imo.

1) Show more than just Superman and Zod brawling.The entire last sequence was just Supes and Zod trading punches. It would have been far more interesting to see the effects of the battle, and to get others involved. One of the strengths of the TDK trilogy is how Nolan gives everyone something to do. Whether it was Gordon taking the Batmobile or chasing the bomb, Blake leading the children to safety, or Fox helping Bruce "see" with the sonar tech, everyone had an important piece in the climax which I feel makes for a better, more effective story.

We didn't see any of Lois, the military, or any other supporting characters during the last battle. Incorporating them into it would have made it seem like more than just a hollow fist fight. Hell, at least show the military rooting for Superman, or something!

2)Add layers to the danger. There was so much more that could have been done to add tension and danger to the final battle, which in turn would have also made Superman more heroic (a big criticism). With all the destruction going on, there were countless ways to give Superman opportunities to be a hero. Make Zod throw a crane into central park, with Kal stopping it just in time (putting himself in a vulnerable position.) ANYTHING! Let Supes save some falling civilians....or let those same civilians attempt (foolishly) to help Superman, or at least root for him! Character moments like this were necessary in the final battle, but there was absolutely nothing at all.

Maybe Zod damages some reactor that will blow and harm thousands? Show Superman dealing with that, through more than brute strength. It's late and I'm blanking out on better examples, but my point stands. There was so much potential for the final battle to make Kal deserving of the name "Superman" (which was given to him in about the most uninspiring way ever).

3) Let them join Superman in the sun. This idea was completely abandoned. There was simply no interaction at all between Superman and the people of Metropolis..even a scene at the end with the people cheering for Superman would have been better than what we got.

I guess if I had to sum it all up in coherent terms: The final battle should have served to make Kal-El into "Superman", the savior of mankind and an inspiration to all. That didn't happen...

I know, people will inevitably reply with things like "oh isn't saving 7 billion people enough" or other simplistic remarks. No, it wasn't enough.
Seriously? Wasn't it the humans who pretty much wiped out most of the Kryptonians in the final action sequences? How was that not enough for the final battle? Was Lois supposed to fist fight Zod? This isn't TDK. Bruce fought humans, Clark fought gods. As for adding layers to the danger? I could care less. He already had to give up his chance of saving his people to save earth, that was enough for me. I'm just thankful he wasn't making wisecracks or witty banter as the world burned around him and civilians were dying. Seriously...no superhero would do that...right? Right?


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Old 05-20-2014, 03:46 AM   #48
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Default Re: All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion - - - Part 55

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"This man... is not our enemy."

Love that moment. Loved Hardy too, even as a minor support player.
That was a great scene. You could just tell he was stressed as he slunk out of the Sears rubble and that line from Hardy gave him such relief.

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Old 05-20-2014, 03:50 AM   #49
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Default Re: All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion - - - Part 55

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Originally Posted by MrsKent26 View Post
DA said something in the other thread before it closed that I wanted to respond to:

"Hiring Terrio can be interpreted as a response to MoS criticisms."

This is what I'm looking for when I talked about Snyder responding to the right criticisms. This is a great response to them. A number of complaints can fall under the "script" umbrella, so he's killing a few birds with one stone. This is an appropriate response instead of say... him cutting out all the major action scenes or dramatically lightening the tone ASM2 style.
It can be looked at it that a way but the truth is Terrio did a polish on the final act and the only reason Goyer didn't/couldn't is because he was a bit to busy writing something else.

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Old 05-20-2014, 04:02 AM   #50
D.P.
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Default Re: All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion - - - Part 55

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Originally Posted by sportjames23 View Post

Superman saves the Earth and all 7 billion inhabitants from Zod?

No good, because he didn't personally rescue anyone from a falling building.

Superman fought off Faora and Nam-Ek?

Too bad he didn't smile and crack jokes while he did.

Superman saved the crew on the platform in the middle of the water?

So? He was on fire and the fire didn't look real enough.

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