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Old 05-20-2014, 05:25 AM   #76
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Default Re: All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion - - - Part 55

When so many people got the 'wrong' interpretation of events and onus of destruction it's kind of a shame, yeah? When the focal point of the conversation following the film is regarding the absolute devastation and supposed loss of lives at the end of the film, it's kind of a bummer. I think for Superman fans, who would rather their hero be re-introduced for this generation perhaps a... different way.

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Old 05-20-2014, 05:30 AM   #77
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Default Re: All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion - - - Part 55

Superman fighting and Metropolis being damaged is not something new that Goyer and Snyder cooked up to upset fans.

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Old 05-20-2014, 05:31 AM   #78
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Default Re: All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion - - - Part 55

^ Yes they did. Superman had never even killed anyone before the movie.

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Old 05-20-2014, 05:33 AM   #79
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Default Re: All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion - - - Part 55

Then why did the conversation revolve around this. When the source material, not to mention all these other Summer blockbusters (Star Trek Into Darkness, Avengers, TDKR, Transformers 3) all feature the same thing happening.

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Old 05-20-2014, 05:33 AM   #80
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Default Re: All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion - - - Part 55

David Goyer:"“One of the things we were hoping to depict is that Superman is not a god. We say he’s a god-like figure but he’s not omnipotent. Even in the comic books he cannot save everyone. I think people die [in Metropolis]. Clearly hundreds if not thousands of people have died while the gravity machines are going off. There were probably even people who died in Smallville. When you’re dealing with a threat like this, there will be collateral damage. This is something that hadn’t been depicted in comic book films is what it would be like if these powerful figures did clash, if the Hulk and Thor fought, people would probably die. Particularly in this case where Zod and the Kryptonians really don’t care if people die. I think people died and I’m sure that upsets some people.

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Old 05-20-2014, 05:35 AM   #81
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Default Re: All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion - - - Part 55

Because it's Superman. And people haven't gotten Donner's version out of their mouths yet. And watching movies has become a thoughtless process.

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Old 05-20-2014, 05:36 AM   #82
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Default Re: All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion - - - Part 55

David Goyer:To a certain extent, Superman, cinematically, hadn’t been reinvented since the Donner films. We will be dealing it with the coming film. He’s not fully formed in [Man of Steel]. He will have to deal with the repercussions (of the destruction) in the next film.

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Old 05-20-2014, 05:36 AM   #83
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Default Re: All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion - - Part 54

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I don't have any issues with the actual fighting aspect, Snyder handled that pretty well. I'm more of a kung-fuey hand to hand fighting fan than a super-powered brawl fan, so I don't really have much to say about that.

However, I do feel that the battle as a whole could have been much better directed. A few small changes would have made for a much better finale, imo.

1) Show more than just Superman and Zod brawling.The entire last sequence was just Supes and Zod trading punches. It would have been far more interesting to see the effects of the battle, and to get others involved. One of the strengths of the TDK trilogy is how Nolan gives everyone something to do. Whether it was Gordon taking the Batmobile or chasing the bomb, Blake leading the children to safety, or Fox helping Bruce "see" with the sonar tech, everyone had an important piece in the climax which I feel makes for a better, more effective story.

We didn't see any of Lois, the military, or any other supporting characters during the last battle. Incorporating them into it would have made it seem like more than just a hollow fist fight. Hell, at least show the military rooting for Superman, or something!

2)Add layers to the danger. There was so much more that could have been done to add tension and danger to the final battle, which in turn would have also made Superman more heroic (a big criticism). With all the destruction going on, there were countless ways to give Superman opportunities to be a hero. Make Zod throw a crane into central park, with Kal stopping it just in time (putting himself in a vulnerable position.) ANYTHING! Let Supes save some falling civilians....or let those same civilians attempt (foolishly) to help Superman, or at least root for him! Character moments like this were necessary in the final battle, but there was absolutely nothing at all.

Maybe Zod damages some reactor that will blow and harm thousands? Show Superman dealing with that, through more than brute strength. It's late and I'm blanking out on better examples, but my point stands. There was so much potential for the final battle to make Kal deserving of the name "Superman" (which was given to him in about the most uninspiring way ever).

3) Let them join Superman in the sun. This idea was completely abandoned. There was simply no interaction at all between Superman and the people of Metropolis..even a scene at the end with the people cheering for Superman would have been better than what we got.

I guess if I had to sum it all up in coherent terms: The final battle should have served to make Kal-El into "Superman", the savior of mankind and an inspiration to all. That didn't happen...

I know, people will inevitably reply with things like "oh isn't saving 7 billion people enough" or other simplistic remarks. No, it wasn't enough.
I thought everyone (military, Lois and superman) are playing their roles in stopping the world machine terrorizing the earth.

I was like you last year, felt that the final battle was too simple; lack of the drama (like a double jeopardy or some kinda impossible task or multiple tasks for him to accomplish)
I myself too had some wishful scenes, like maybe he did save some innocents but at the same time, some were killed by zod tooÖ right before himÖ and he couldnít save themÖ tears brimming around his eyesÖ

We really like drama, donít we?

I think mostly because we havenít seen the hero being accepted in the end of the movie. We totally have no idea how the public reaction was!!! We are deliberately shielded from the information. We were so ready to cheer for himÖ yet we were not given the opportunityÖ so itís just feltÖ something is missing in the ending.

It is so not the superhero movieís style.

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Old 05-20-2014, 05:40 AM   #84
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Default Re: All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion - - - Part 55

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David Goyer:To a certain extent, Superman, cinematically, hadnít been reinvented since the Donner films. We will be dealing it with the coming film. Heís not fully formed in [Man of Steel]. He will have to deal with the repercussions (of the destruction) in the next film.

"But we wanted instant resolution and gratification now!"


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Old 05-20-2014, 05:43 AM   #85
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Default Re: All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion - - - Part 55

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There is no double standard. There is just the films and how they present their story. People weren't saying The Avengers destroyed New York or that Batman screwed Gotham up because those movies within their own tone and story managed to make the heroes look like the heroes.

Man of Steel did not, or at lest not effectively. They couldn't developed Superman into a hero and the result was that the stand out of the film for a lot of people was the destruction seeing in it.

Of course Superman is no more to blame than Thor in Avengers for example, but that's not the point. The problem is in how the film showed it, not in what.
OK.


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David Goyer:"One of the things we were hoping to depict is that Superman is not a Hero.

We say he’s a god-like figure but he’s not omnipotent. Even in the comic books he cannot save everyone. I think people die [in Metropolis]. Clearly hundreds if not thousands of people have died while the gravity machines are going off. There were probably even people who died in Smallville. When you’re dealing with a threat like this, there will be collateral damage.

This is something that hadn’t been depicted in Marvel films is what it would be like if these powerful figures did clash, if the Hulk and Thor fought, people would probably die. Particularly in this case where Zod and the Kal El really don’t care if people die. I think people died and I’m sure that upsets some Fans. "
Fixed.

(according to some fan's perceptions)

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Old 05-20-2014, 05:44 AM   #86
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Default Re: All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion - - - Part 55

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Because it's Superman. And people haven't gotten Donner's version out of their mouths yet. And watching movies has become a thoughtless process.
I disagree. It's just pacing and storytelling. Take for instance in Star Trek into Darkness which came out a month or so prior had the Enterprise smashing into San Fran(?) and taking out a huge chunk of the city with it. Was everyone up in arms about this? No. It was a thrilling, exciting sequence.

MOS after the Smallville battle just seemed to have no structure. And it got bleak. Really bleak. I think even the color is important on a core level here too. In STiD it was daytime and Sunny and all the bright colors popped for the end sequence. MOS was just grey as. It just added more to the bleakness.

Then the threat is thought to be resolved and the area where 15 mins prior was populated with people running has just become a fiery crater. Add some really off-note humor ('All downhill on the first kiss), another CGI fight, have Superman kill Zod in cold-blood. Scream in anguish. Cry in Lois' lap. Then do a 180 and close the film, trying to finish on a high note. It was just bad storytelling. Bad structure and pacing. Snyder is still learning. It's just a shame he wasn't in better form for this film.

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Old 05-20-2014, 05:47 AM   #87
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Default Re: All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion - - - Part 55

Someone should really get all the professional writers and directors from these boards to make every superhero movie from here on out.

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Old 05-20-2014, 05:48 AM   #88
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Default Re: All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion - - - Part 55


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Old 05-20-2014, 05:49 AM   #89
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Default Re: All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion - - - Part 55

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David Goyer:To a certain extent, Superman, cinematically, hadnít been reinvented since the Donner films. We will be dealing it with the coming film. Heís not fully formed in [Man of Steel]. He will have to deal with the repercussions (of the destruction) in the next film.
If he isn't fully formed in MoS and the movie is a realistic take on the destruction and collateral damage, then wouldn't our mixed response as an audience be a realistic read on it as well? We can't expect all of us to cheer for him. Some already see him as a hero, some wouldn't.

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Old 05-20-2014, 05:49 AM   #90
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Default Re: All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion - - - Part 55

That is so ****ing awesome.

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Old 05-20-2014, 05:50 AM   #91
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Default Re: All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion - - - Part 55

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Someone should really get all the professional writers and directors from these boards to make every superhero movie from here on out.
How about all these professionals from these boards review the BvS movie in depth (read frame by frame) after it is released ?

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Old 05-20-2014, 05:53 AM   #92
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Default Re: All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion - - - Part 55

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How about all these professionals from these boards review the BvS movie in depth (read frame by frame) after it is released ?
That's what I'm looking forward to.

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Old 05-20-2014, 05:55 AM   #93
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Default Re: All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion - - - Part 55

Dear friends I am truly sorry. I have debated Man of Steel going on a year. It's the same discussion over and over and over again. We were just given what could be the best cinematic bat suit ever, Batman vs Superman started shooting today, we have pics from Gal's shoot over the weekend...we have tons of new stuff to talk about without going back to beat Comet into the ground with a Green K bat. I truly do not want to spend the next two years continuing to debate over Superman killing and the Metropolis Destruction. I know we have a lot of new people here who missed out on those debates. I can't be a part of them anymore. It's better to look to the future than to keep living in the past.

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Old 05-20-2014, 05:56 AM   #94
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Default Re: All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion - - - Part 55

Thank you for uploading those quotes roach. Either way I am confident the Donner films will remain the benchmark/standard when it comes to Superman on film.

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Old 05-20-2014, 05:58 AM   #95
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Default Re: All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion - - - Part 55


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Old 05-20-2014, 05:58 AM   #96
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Default Re: All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion - - - Part 55

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Dear friends I am truly sorry. I have debated Man of Steel going on a year. It's the same discussion over and over and over again. We were just given what could be the best cinematic bat suit ever, Batman vs Superman started shooting today, we have pics from Gal's shoot over the weekend...we have tons of new stuff to talk about without going back to beat Comet into the ground with a Green K bat. I truly do not want to spend the next two years continuing to debate over Superman killing and the Metropolis Destruction. I know we have a lot of new people here who missed out on those debates. I can't be a part of them anymore. It's better to look to the future than to keep living in the past.
Exactly. It's done. We can't change it. It's completely pointless to keep going on with it.

We are getting SUPERMAN, BATMAN and WONDER WOMAN on the big screen TOGETHER for the FIRST TIME EVER. I, for one, am ****ing happy and excited.

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Old 05-20-2014, 06:00 AM   #97
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Default Re: All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion - - - Part 55

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Exactly. It's done. We can't change it. It's completely pointless to keep going on with it.
especially after this was dropped into our laps


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Old 05-20-2014, 06:01 AM   #98
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Default Re: All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion - - - Part 55

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Thank you for uploading those quotes roach. Either way I am confident the Donner films will remain the benchmark/standard when it comes to Superman on film.
This doesn't seem like you are giving them much of a chance.

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Old 05-20-2014, 06:01 AM   #99
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Default Re: All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion - - - Part 55

Guys and gals, Man of Steel was a great film. It was the best Superman film ever made. All this talk about the death and destruction is just talk. There has been worse in other films over the years and nobody is coGplaining about those.



How soon we forget that people died in this film? I think we need to stop complaining, stop using the destruction porn argument as an excuse, and let's move on.

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Old 05-20-2014, 06:02 AM   #100
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Default Re: All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion - - - Part 55

The reaction to the suit reveal has been very mixed - it did create the whole Sad Batman viral sensation though.

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