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Old 06-01-2014, 08:56 AM   #101
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it's simple...in the JL's case, the leader needs to be the one who makes the plan, the general, the tactician. That's not Superman.
Then, according to your logic, Aquaman would be best suited for the job.

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Old 06-01-2014, 09:18 AM   #102
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I've never liked Superman as the leader, that's too much power unchecked by nothing but the hope that he's not going to snap. It becomes less (he's the right guy for the job and more they follow him because of his power) Supes always seemed like the guy that would allow at the very least the illusion that he takes orders, or that he can be controlled purely to put the rest of his allies at ease. Heck...we saw that in MoS. Also I don't think the leader in this case should be the source of inspiration or the guy who rallies people, they are all leaders in their own right they shouldn't have to rely on superman to know whats right, it's simple...in the JL's case, the leader needs to be the one who makes the plan, the general, the tactician. That's not Superman.
Plans come from all sorts of people in the JLA. There are alot of strong keen insights/minds on the team.This is a team of individuals who themselves use their own smarts against all sorts of odds. I read once that J'onn was the teams strongest tactician..some would argue Wondy has the most war experience(she is war in the current books), some would argue batman...etc

I personally see this sort of team not actually needing to be 'led' by a battle plan guy, but rather someone that earns enough respect across the board to have kings follow him. Not everyone on the team appreciates Batman's methods(John's Hal jordan for example), a young Rayner might not appreciate the old Wonder Woman kill em all type of battle cry...
All of these people, batman especially, appreciate Superman. Those are the types of stories I've seen in the books anyways. Thus I'd say he's most fit to lead. Like StarTrek, the captain doesn't necessarily have to be the smartest tactician on the bridge(see falcons). Just the one everyone is ready to follow.

As for how superman is written. What you are describing seems to fall very much into TAS/JLU territory. I'm personally used to something different. Hard to say what we'll be given when Snyder's JLA teams forms up.

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Old 06-01-2014, 10:46 AM   #103
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A leader also has to be willing to make the difficult/ambiguous choices if necessary. And I'm not at all convinced that Superman can do that. I've never really liked the idea of the JL having an out and out "leader" anyway. It's not like the Avengers, where Cap is kind of the obvious choice. Most of the members of the JL have at least some qualities that would be good in a leader, and they all have flaws that wouldn't. It seems to me like they should operate on more of a consensus-bases mode.

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Old 06-01-2014, 11:32 AM   #104
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A leader also has to be willing to make the difficult/ambiguous choices if necessary. And I'm not at all convinced that Superman can do that. I've never really liked the idea of the JL having an out and out "leader" anyway. It's not like the Avengers, where Cap is kind of the obvious choice. Most of the members of the JL have at least some qualities that would be good in a leader, and they all have flaws that wouldn't. It seems to me like they should operate on more of a consensus-bases mode.
Superman has been known to make those kinds of decisions from time to time

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Old 06-01-2014, 11:48 AM   #105
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I want to thank the originator of this thread, and all the contributors. I've learned a few things about Wonder Woman that I completely had no clue about. Also, some very fascinating discussions that could not have gone on in depth in the other two threads. who leads the Justice League, and why. Are the Trinity the founders, including Wonder Woman, and why people would look up to Superman instead of Batman. Keep going I'm looking forward to all the replies.

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Old 06-01-2014, 12:00 PM   #106
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Wondie is usually a without a weakness. should they make a weakness for her?

if she is a Kryptiona in BvS I think it's the krypton atmosphere but if she is a normal amazon or a demigoddess(like new 52) what should her weakness be? or should they just leave her without any?

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Old 06-01-2014, 12:10 PM   #107
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No, she doesn't need a specific silver bullet-like weakness. It always ends up being overused by writers who cannot come up with a more creative way to make a villain legitimately threatening. A writer cannot come up with a way to make a villain challenging to Superman "screw it, let's just say he's got some Kryptonite." It always happens. Here's WW's weakness. If a villain is strong enough, he/she can beat her. If a piece of tech is advanced enough, then it can kill her. If a magical spell if powerful enough, then it can beat her, etc.

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Old 06-01-2014, 12:12 PM   #108
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Then, according to your logic, Aquaman would be best suited for the job.
If that's how he's written then so be it, but they aren't going to give that big a role to a non-trinity member straight out of the gate.

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Old 06-01-2014, 03:45 PM   #109
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If that's how he's written then so be it, but they aren't going to give that big a role to a non-trinity member straight out of the gate.
Well considering that he's the king of Atlantis It's pretty much a given. In the books he's commanding the most technological advanced army in the world.

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Old 06-01-2014, 03:48 PM   #110
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Wondie is usually a without a weakness. should they make a weakness for her?

if she is a Kryptiona in BvS I think it's the krypton atmosphere but if she is a normal amazon or a demigoddess(like new 52) what should her weakness be? or should they just leave her without any?
Isn't Wonder Womans weakness having her hands tied by a man? Or have they changed it by now?

http://www.cracked.com/article_19434...eaknesses.html

Edit: Nah, by actually reading the article i see that they have stopped using that weakness. Good.

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Old 06-01-2014, 04:02 PM   #111
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Well considering that he's the king of Atlantis It's pretty much a given. In the books he's commanding the most technological advanced army in the world.
Has he ever actually commanded the JL in the comics?

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Old 06-01-2014, 07:21 PM   #112
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Wondie is usually a without a weakness. should they make a weakness for her?
No. Wonder Woman's only "weakness" should be her compassion for others. For example, her choice to spare the life of a villain in the hope that they can be rehabilitated may come back to bite her, but that should be her only "weakness".

I wouldn't want to see the "bound by any man" weakness reintroduced, even though it should arguably be extremely difficult for anyone to truly bind Wonder Woman. And I don't think it's necessary, since Wonder Woman basically carries around the means of binding her IF anyone is powerful enough to do so (i.e. the lasso of truth which is unbreakable).

The current "god mode" as a "weakness" is interesting, but I doubt Wonder Woman's character will get enough focus in Batman v Superman: DoJ or in Justice League for that to be a fully defined weakness. And I wouldn't want them to oversimplify it by having Wonder Woman "hulk out" if her bracelets are removed.

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Old 06-01-2014, 08:03 PM   #113
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I don't think they need to add a special weakness either.

Both Superman and Wonder Woman can tire out when fighting someone on their level. Both can be distracted and make mistakes in a fight so that they end up losing.

I would like them to reference god mode but save for someone like Darkseid as a last resort.

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Old 06-01-2014, 08:06 PM   #114
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They are the sons of different Amazon mothers. They are not related as brothers and sisters unless they were twins.

The naked woman is the goddess Aphrodite whose face is never shown.
Ah thanks! That clears it up.

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Old 06-01-2014, 10:04 PM   #115
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I don't think they need to add a special weakness either.

Both Superman and Wonder Woman can tire out when fighting someone on their level. Both can be distracted and make mistakes in a fight so that they end up losing.

I would like them to reference god mode but save for someone like Darkseid as a last resort.
Can you imagine Diana in god mode serving Darkseid the final victorious blow in a future JL movie? I can. And that imagined scene makes my fanboy heart do somersaults!

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Old 06-02-2014, 01:00 AM   #116
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Plans come from all sorts of people in the JLA. There are alot of strong keen insights/minds on the team.This is a team of individuals who themselves use their own smarts against all sorts of odds. I read once that J'onn was the teams strongest tactician..some would argue Wondy has the most war experience(she is war in the current books), some would argue batman...etc

I personally see this sort of team not actually needing to be 'led' by a battle plan guy, but rather someone that earns enough respect across the board to have kings follow him. Not everyone on the team appreciates Batman's methods(John's Hal jordan for example), a young Rayner might not appreciate the old Wonder Woman kill em all type of battle cry...
All of these people, batman especially, appreciate Superman. Those are the types of stories I've seen in the books anyways. Thus I'd say he's most fit to lead. Like StarTrek, the captain doesn't necessarily have to be the smartest tactician on the bridge(see falcons). Just the one everyone is ready to follow.

As for how superman is written. What you are describing seems to fall very much into TAS/JLU territory. I'm personally used to something different. Hard to say what we'll be given when Snyder's JLA teams forms up.
Thank you for this.

I really would like to see Supes as the leader. It's nothing against the others. They all have leadership qualities. So, it's not that I don't want the others to lead or don't think they have what it takes, I just want to see superman take on that roll. It's just that, like you said, superman is a leader of kings. He's not the leader because he likes to boss people around. He's like the rock that people can break themselves against. He's steady, true and will never give up. He's well rounded and possess at least a touch of every quality a leader needs. He earns his position through inspiration of others.

It would be fair to say the JL doesn't have or doesn't need a defined leader, but I'd like to see them take on the challenge of writing a team that is balanced, but also has a defined leader. I think it could add to the arcs of each hero. For superman, we need to see him become that archetype of all that's good and fair, so that he's worthy of this leader of kings role. For the others, we need to see why they would willingly follow this alien into the abyss. Considering the strong personalities of people like batman and Wonder Woman, this has potential to be rather fascinating.

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Old 06-02-2014, 02:53 AM   #117
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No, it's not a new concept. In Pre-Crisis (Golden/Silver Age), all Amazons wore bracelets and if they are taken off they would go into a frenzy of rage but their strength would increase dramatically.

In New 52, Azzarello adapted that idea for only WW. The bracelets repress her divine powers. If she removes her bracelets, she has access to all her strength but she has less control over herself and can slip into a rage.
huh so they reintroduced this concept huh? very interesting

what issue did Azarello's run start? or which issues / novels should i pick up to get started with the current run? i may be able to make a bit of room on my paltry budget for some comics again

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Old 06-02-2014, 08:05 AM   #118
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huh so they reintroduced this concept huh? very interesting

what issue did Azarello's run start? or which issues / novels should i pick up to get started with the current run? i may be able to make a bit of room on my paltry budget for some comics again
Issue 1 of the New 52

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Old 06-02-2014, 08:50 AM   #119
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Thank you for this.

I really would like to see Supes as the leader. It's nothing against the others. They all have leadership qualities. So, it's not that I don't want the others to lead or don't think they have what it takes, I just want to see superman take on that roll. It's just that, like you said, superman is a leader of kings. He's not the leader because he likes to boss people around. He's like the rock that people can break themselves against. He's steady, true and will never give up. He's well rounded and possess at least a touch of every quality a leader needs. He earns his position through inspiration of others.

It would be fair to say the JL doesn't have or doesn't need a defined leader, but I'd like to see them take on the challenge of writing a team that is balanced, but also has a defined leader. I think it could add to the arcs of each hero. For superman, we need to see him become that archetype of all that's good and fair, so that he's worthy of this leader of kings role. For the others, we need to see why they would willingly follow this alien into the abyss. Considering the strong personalities of people like batman and Wonder Woman, this has potential to be rather fascinating.
Doesn't work that way. It still undermines them if you imply that these heroes were somehow incomplete until they met Superman to lead and guide them to greater things. Especially if Batman is far more experienced and in the know than Superman at this point. The justice league shouldn't be Superman and the Justice League, it should just be The Justice League, each of them equally respected, equally valued and all their opinions taken into account. If there is a leader, it would be the tactician type to give orders in battle, aka Captain America, who isn't THE defined leader in which every other member leans on, because none of them need him to be the complete hero they should be. That's not what the story should be about.

Like people have said here, if there is a tactician it's more appropriate it be Batman or Wonder Woman. Personally the idea of Wonder Woman making battle plans and giving out orders to the rest of the league gets me hyped.

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Old 06-02-2014, 09:13 AM   #120
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Doesn't work that way. It still undermines them if you imply that these heroes were somehow incomplete until they met Superman to lead and guide them to greater things. Especially if Batman is far more experienced and in the know than Superman at this point. The justice league shouldn't be Superman and the Justice League, it should just be The Justice League, each of them equally respected, equally valued and all their opinions taken into account. If there is a leader, it would be the tactician type to give orders in battle, aka Captain America, who isn't THE defined leader in which every other member leans on, because none of them need him to be the complete hero they should be. That's not what the story should be about.

Like people have said here, if there is a tactician it's more appropriate it be Batman or Wonder Woman. Personally the idea of Wonder Woman making battle plans and giving out orders to the rest of the league gets me hyped.

1) There's no "it doesn't work that way." Your way is not fact.

2) WW being the leader does not make any more sense than superman doing it. There's no reason why superman wouldn't develop some tactical knowledge and he could easily consult the others.

3) "The justice league shouldn't be Superman and the Justice League, it should just be The Justice League, each of them equally respected, equally valued and all their opinions taken into account."

When did I ever say they wouldn't be taken into account? Never, I guess.

4) the idea that the most "tactical" person is the best leader seems rather simplistic to me.

This has already be answered well here:

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Plans come from all sorts of people in the JLA. There are alot of strong keen insights/minds on the team.This is a team of individuals who themselves use their own smarts against all sorts of odds. I read once that J'onn was the teams strongest tactician..some would argue Wondy has the most war experience(she is war in the current books), some would argue batman...etc

I personally see this sort of team not actually needing to be 'led' by a battle plan guy, but rather someone that earns enough respect across the board to have kings follow him. Not everyone on the team appreciates Batman's methods(John's Hal jordan for example), a young Rayner might not appreciate the old Wonder Woman kill em all type of battle cry...
All of these people, batman especially, appreciate Superman. Those are the types of stories I've seen in the books anyways. Thus I'd say he's most fit to lead. Like StarTrek, the captain doesn't necessarily have to be the smartest tactician on the bridge(see falcons). Just the one everyone is ready to follow.

As for how superman is written. What you are describing seems to fall very much into TAS/JLU territory. I'm personally used to something different. Hard to say what we'll be given when Snyder's JLA teams forms up.
5) I never implied anyone was incomplete before superman. I implied he affects them in a positive way and seems to have qualities they believe makes him worth following.

6) You think the idea of them following superman is outlandish and implies they're incomplete and yet the idea of them following WW doesn't cause the same scenario. Why? Because she's a "tactician"? Alrighty then...I guess batman is fine being lead by WW as opposed to Superman because she's a tactician.

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Old 06-02-2014, 09:26 AM   #121
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Following on from MoS I simply cannot see how the character could possibly be far enough along his development to be even considered a leader. It appears Batman has been around for some time and I cannot see him falling in behind such a destructive force as Superman. Quite simply Superman has a lot more maturing to do. We know nothing about WW at this stage but if she has left the island then one could assume her training is more or less complete and is therefore along with Batman more qualified at this time. If it's based on 52 then as God of War it's not even in question.

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Old 06-02-2014, 03:15 PM   #122
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Sorry but tactical skill alone does not the leader of a super hero team make.

Does this mean the Chairmanship is only about the fight? Leading a diverse group is about a lot of things.

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Old 06-02-2014, 03:30 PM   #123
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Not sure if that is directed towards my comments?

But if it was are you suggesting that WW only has tactical ability going for her? That she is incapable of inspiring people to follow her? She possesses "lots of things".

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Old 06-02-2014, 03:35 PM   #124
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Superman should be the leader. Not because of his power, or his tactics, but because of his spirit.

He's the one who will always find a way, and that is where his true strength lies more than any if the others. Man of Steel might have done away with that for that film, but it should be brought back.

Nobody can inspire like Superman.

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Old 06-02-2014, 03:41 PM   #125
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Superman should be the leader. Not because of his power, or his tactics, but because of his spirit.

He's the one who will always find a way, and that is where his true strength lies more than any if the others. Man of Steel might have done away with that for that film, but it should be brought back.

Nobody can inspire like Superman.
I don't buy that the others cannot find a way or inspire like SM. In saying that I don't believe there will be a clear leader. It will depend on the opponent and circumstances. So we have different leaders for different movies.

Nothing in MoS suggests to me he is ready yet. Maybe in the second JL movie.

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