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Old 06-11-2014, 05:21 PM   #351
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Default Re: All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion - - - - - - - - - Part 61

nearly 30 years old and still so many people don't understand The Dark Knight Returns

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Old 06-11-2014, 05:21 PM   #352
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It's going to be awful.
The first time they show the two together it will break the internet. It will be glorious and amazing! People will dissect every millisecond like it is the Zapruder film ad I cannot wait!

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Old 06-11-2014, 05:23 PM   #353
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nearly 30 years old and still so many people don't understand The Dark Knight Returns
Please, explain instead of being condescending. Other people have different opinions and just because they differ from yours, that doesn't mean they don't understand. You've made dismissive posts like that before.

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Old 06-11-2014, 05:25 PM   #354
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nearly 30 years old and still so many people don't understand The Dark Knight Returns
I understand it, and I dont like it. I have read one thing by Miller I have ever liked and it was Year One. Everything else is just terrible.

The fact that the DCU Batman became a younger version of TDKR Batman really made me hate the story. Between the fact that he became full on Bat-God and the fact that he pretty much hated being a hero and hated everyone else in the Justice League killed Batman comics in my mind.

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Old 06-11-2014, 05:25 PM   #355
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nearly 30 years old and still so many people don't understand The Dark Knight Returns

Well its' certainly doesn't portray Superman in the right light but then again your a Batman fan aren't you so I guess you wouldn't be bothered by it.

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Old 06-11-2014, 05:42 PM   #356
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Saw DC Super Friends
Couldn't watch it all the way

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Old 06-11-2014, 05:43 PM   #357
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Default Re: All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion - - - - - - - - - Part 61

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Please, explain instead of being condescending. Other people have different opinions and just because they differ from yours, that doesn't mean they don't understand. You've made dismissive posts like that before.
You are right, people have opinions and I'm just stating mine and expressing what i perceive to be true. I don't need to cushion what I say because some people might find the manner in how i say it to be abrasive. Just treat every post as someone elses opinion.

And yes, I do think people focus too much on the one panel where Batman beats the crap out of Superman, because lord knows, Batman can't beat him in a story where he's the most desperate he's ever been, when he's about to die, and he has pulled every trick in the book to weaken and distract him AND HE STILL DIES, but nope...insecure Superman fans like to pick and choose the one panel and completely miss what that story and their relationship in the book is trying to convey to us. (which i find to be an incredible examination of their differing/similar lifestyles that get eroded by the modern world)


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I understand it, and I dont like it. I have read one thing by Miller I have ever liked and it was Year One. Everything else is just terrible.

The fact that the DCU Batman became a younger version of TDKR Batman really made me hate the story. Between the fact that he became full on Bat-God and the fact that he pretty much hated being a hero and hated everyone else in the Justice League killed Batman comics in my mind.
Hated being a hero? Hates everyone in the Justice League? Have you read any recent Batman comics?

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Well its' certainly doesn't portray Superman in the right light but then again your a Batman fan aren't you so I guess you wouldn't be bothered by it.
Wrong, Neither of them are portrayed in the right light, that's the point of DKR, they've both transformed from these righteous altruistic heroes into these twisted hideous versions of themselves, the world has transformed them, tragedy and time has turned Bruce into a cynical bitter old man who can't let go of his inner monster, he does plenty of irresponsible and "un-batman" like things in the comic book, one would argue that the idea of bringing someone into this war of his has backfired, with the estrangement of Dick, the death of Jason, the sudden recruitment of a highly inexperienced young girl and leading up to the mass recruitment of gotham's youth into a cult, the man is severely anti authoritarian and violent, how is that different from Clark being turned into a political puppet? Clark is certainly different, but so is Bruce. I wouldn't want either as my current Batman or Superman.

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Old 06-11-2014, 05:50 PM   #358
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Wrong, Neither of them are portrayed in the right light, that's the point of DKR, they've both transformed from these righteous altruistic heroes into these twisted hideous versions of themselves, the world has transformed them, tragedy and time has turned Bruce into a cynical bitter old man who can't let go of his inner monster, he does plenty of irresponsible and "un-batman" like things in the comic book, one would argue that the idea of bringing someone into this war of his has backfired, with the estrangement of Dick, the death of Jason, the sudden recruitment of a highly inexperienced young girl and leading up to the mass recruitment of gotham's youth into a cult, the man is severely anti authoritarian and violent, how is that different from Clark being turned into a political puppet? Clark is certainly different, but so is Bruce. I wouldn't want either as my current Batman or Superman.
Fans and even Comic Book Writers tend to forget that DKR is essentially a messed up alternate future version of Silver/Bronze Age DCU. The story works because, like you said, its about these once uber heroic guys becoming utterly effed up due to time, old age and the environment they inhabit.

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Old 06-11-2014, 05:53 PM   #359
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You are right, people have opinions and I'm just stating mine and expressing what i perceive to be true. I don't need to cushion what I say because some people might find the manner in how i say it to be abrasive. Just treat every post as someone elses opinion.

And yes, I do think people focus too much on the one panel where Batman beats the crap out of Superman, because lord knows, Batman can't beat him in a story where he's the most desperate he's ever been, when he's about to die, and he has pulled every trick in the book to weaken and distract him AND HE STILL DIES, but nope...insecure Superman fans like to pick and choose the one panel and completely miss what that story and their relationship in the book is trying to convey to us. (which i find to be an incredible examination of their differing/similar lifestyles that get eroded by the modern world)
Well, some "cushioning" would be appreciated. Abrasiveness isn't needed and doesn't promote good discussion. You could have stated your opinion in a polite way that would have still conveyed your point. Obviously, you don't give a hoot about that, so I guess I'm wasting my time with that sentiment.

As for the rest, I'm well aware that Miller was trying to convey how the modern world eroded the two men. I just did not like how he presented it. To me, it came off as superman was being use to make batman look heroic. I'm also aware superman got to do some other stuff, but I find the rest irritating. And insecure superman fans? Perhaps some people care more about his portrayal than others. Just because Miller wanted to tell a certain story, that doesn't mean I have to like it.

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Old 06-11-2014, 05:53 PM   #360
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Default Re: All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion - - - - - - - - - Part 61

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your a Batman fan aren't you
I wonder if that's supposed to be an insult.

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Old 06-11-2014, 05:54 PM   #361
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Please, explain instead of being condescending. Other people have different opinions and just because they differ from yours, that doesn't mean they don't understand. You've made dismissive posts like that before.
Well, because he thought it was good sport. Because some men aren't looking for anything logical, like money. They can't be bought, bullied, reasoned, or negotiated with. Some men just want to watch the world burn.

Sorry Sharkboy lolc ouldnt help it. It seemed fitting even with your Avatar though its the wrong Joker

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Old 06-11-2014, 05:56 PM   #362
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You are right, people have opinions and I'm just stating mine and expressing what i perceive to be true. I don't need to cushion what I say because some people might find the manner in how i say it to be abrasive. Just treat every post as someone elses opinion.

And yes, I do think people focus too much on the one panel where Batman beats the crap out of Superman, because lord knows, Batman can't beat him in a story where he's the most desperate he's ever been, when he's about to die, and he has pulled every trick in the book to weaken and distract him AND HE STILL DIES, but nope...insecure Superman fans like to pick and choose the one panel and completely miss what that story and their relationship in the book is trying to convey to us. (which i find to be an incredible examination of their differing/similar lifestyles that get eroded by the modern world)



Hated being a hero? Hates everyone in the Justice League? Have you read any recent Batman comics?



Wrong, Neither of them are portrayed in the right light, that's the point of DKR, they've both transformed from these righteous altruistic heroes into these twisted hideous versions of themselves, the world has transformed them, tragedy and time has turned Bruce into a cynical bitter old man who can't let go of his inner monster, he does plenty of irresponsible and "un-batman" like things in the comic book, one would argue that the idea of bringing someone into this war of his has backfired, with the estrangement of Dick, the death of Jason, the sudden recruitment of a highly inexperienced young girl and leading up to the mass recruitment of gotham's youth into a cult, the man is severely anti authoritarian and violent, how is that different from Clark being turned into a political puppet? Clark is certainly different, but so is Bruce. I wouldn't want either as my current Batman or Superman.
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Fans and even Comic Book Writers tend to forget that DKR is essentially a messed up alternate future version of Silver/Bronze Age DCU. The story works because, like you said, its about these once uber heroic guys becoming utterly effed up due to time, old age and the environment they inhabit.

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Old 06-11-2014, 05:59 PM   #363
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TDKR was essential to the character of Batman. Even if you don't like parts of it, you can't deny the impact and influence it had on Batman and comics in general. From a purely historical/influential perspective, TDKR is one of the most important Batman stories ever told, whether you liked it or not. We might not have the Batman we have today if it weren't for the darkness TDKR brought to the table.


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Old 06-11-2014, 06:04 PM   #364
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Well, some "cushioning" would be appreciated. Abrasiveness isn't needed and doesn't promote good discussion. You could have stated your opinion in a polite way that would have still conveyed your point. Obviously, you don't give a hoot about that, so I guess I'm wasting my time with that sentiment.

As for the rest, I'm well aware that Miller was trying to convey how the modern world eroded the two men. I just did not like how he presented it. To me, it came off as superman was being use to make batman look heroic. I'm also aware superman got to do some other stuff, but I find the rest irritating. And insecure superman fans? Perhaps some people care more about his portrayal than others. Just because Miller wanted to tell a certain story, that doesn't mean I have to like it.
Well I do apologise if you take offense, that wasn't my intention, but you really shouldnt expect me to add an "IMO" at the end of everything just because.

Yeah but he DIDN'T look heroic, was he "cool?" was he "badass?" yeah sure, but was he Batman? not at all, if anything he was an anti-hero, exactly what Batman shouldn't be (and is often mislabeled as) I could understand people hating DKR for it's impact on what Batman would be portrayed as in the next decade or so, but as a story? It's beautiful and tragic and shows what Superman AND Batman can both become thanks to the world we live in.

It's not some Batman fanboy fantasy that craps on Superman, that is just incorrect. If you want to hate on a comic, hate on what Geoff Johns is doing with the Justice League, have you seen how they've written Superman in there? I'm not even a Superman fan and it disgusts me.

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Old 06-11-2014, 06:11 PM   #365
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Default Re: All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion - - - - - - - - - Part 61

I haven't read any of the new JL, but if it's anything like the animated film JL War...I can't stand Supes in that. Or WW, for that matter. The only tolerable leaguers are Batman, Flash, and Cyborg.

Superman was portrayed as a dumb, dumb brute. Even as a first and foremost Batman fan, I know they ruined Superman.

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Old 06-11-2014, 06:13 PM   #366
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Hated being a hero? Hates everyone in the Justice League? Have you read any recent Batman comics?
You mean like Tower of Babel where it is revealed he has plans to fight each member of the Justice League and it almost destroys them? Or the OMAC Project where he creates a spy satellite to spy on the League and the people? Or how about in Infinite Crisis when he told Clark "the last time you inspired anyone was when you died". Or how about how he and Dick Grayson pretty much didnt talk for about a decade in comics. (or if they did it was yelling at each other) How about when he formed the Outsiders (2 or 3 times) because he didnt want to be a part of the League and didnt seem to trust them...how about when it was found out he was hording kryptonite...

I worked in a comic store, edited an online comics magazine and have read comics since about '04 so yes I have read it. Every time they have a story where Batman shows he trusts someone a new mega story-arch comes around which shows Batman in his uber cynical, trust no one way. On the old DC boards it was a long running joke Batman never smiled. He was DC's answer to Wolverine, just a dark and brooding dick. For all of Snyder's faults his version of Batman at least seems human and Johns in Trinity War had Batman show actual compassion for his friends not act like a ******** worried his plan wont work.

As i said my problems with TDKR are more than just superman I didnt like the story and I hated the artwork. That is just how I felt when I read it. I preferred Batman in Kingdom Come when it comes to future Batman.

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Old 06-11-2014, 06:15 PM   #367
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Well I do apologise if you take offense, that wasn't my intention, but you really shouldnt expect me to add an "IMO" at the end of everything just because.

Yeah but he DIDN'T look heroic, was he "cool?" was he "badass?" yeah sure, but was he Batman? not at all, if anything he was an anti-hero, exactly what Batman shouldn't be (and is often mislabeled as) I could understand people hating DKR for it's impact on what Batman would be portrayed as in the next decade or so, but as a story? It's beautiful and tragic and shows what Superman AND Batman can both become thanks to the world we live in.

It's not some Batman fanboy fantasy that craps on Superman, that is just incorrect. If you want to hate on a comic, hate on what Geoff Johns is doing with the Justice League, have you seen how they've written Superman in there? I'm not even a Superman fan and it disgusts me.
I don't expect IMO, but your original post made it seem like everyone else had laughable opinions and that yours was superior. As I said before, opinions different than yours do not equal misunderstanding.

To me, TDKR came off as a bit of a batman fanboy fantasy. Yes, there was the tragedy of what they had become, but batman, as you just said, came off cool and badass in their fight. Superman didn't. He was a government lapdog. Perhaps the fact that I'm a superman fan and you just said you are not, has something to do with differing perspectives.

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Old 06-11-2014, 06:20 PM   #368
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I wonder if that's supposed to be an insult.
Well...

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Old 06-11-2014, 06:21 PM   #369
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Fans and even Comic Book Writers tend to forget that DKR is essentially a messed up alternate future version of Silver/Bronze Age DCU. The story works because, like you said, its about these once uber heroic guys becoming utterly effed up due to time, old age and the environment they inhabit.
Right on the mark as usual Batsy.

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Well, because he thought it was good sport. Because some men aren't looking for anything logical, like money. They can't be bought, bullied, reasoned, or negotiated with. Some men just want to watch the world burn.

Sorry Sharkboy lolc ouldnt help it. It seemed fitting even with your Avatar though its the wrong Joker

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Old 06-11-2014, 06:25 PM   #370
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Default Re: All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion - - - - - - - - - Part 61

I think TDKR is kind of like the Killing Joke...both were supposed to be one off stories but were so different and so powerful/beloved that they became canon. (same holds true for Kingdom Come which for almost a decade was the accepted future of the DCU)

Look I am not about a Batman vs. Superman pissing contest amongst the fans because I like them both. (Supes more) I just think there are way better Batman stories than TDKR. Give me The Long Halloween or Year One. Give me Hush even though Superman got Poison Ivied.

I guess I would rather Batfleck be The Dark Knight DETECTIVE than just The Dark Knight. Dont give me a Batman lost in his own world of Daddy Issues and evil rogues...give me a Batman who uses his mind to be a tactician and figure things out. that is a version we havent really ever seen outside of the DCAU.

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Old 06-11-2014, 06:34 PM   #371
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Default Re: All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion - - - - - - - - - Part 61

I'm both a batman and superman fan as well. I just don't like TDKR. I don't like all superman stories either. Unfortunately, even though people keep using "DKR isn't the normal superman and batman" in its defense, as dhandler01 said, it has become canon to some. Some people really think this is how a supes/bats fight would go down and that it's perfectly fine for that to happen. They weren't in character and I don't want to see that story in live-action.

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Old 06-11-2014, 06:38 PM   #372
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I haven't read any of the new JL, but if it's anything like the animated film JL War...I can't stand Supes in that. Or WW, for that matter. The only tolerable leaguers are Batman, Flash, and Cyborg.

Superman was portrayed as a dumb, dumb brute. Even as a first and foremost Batman fan, I know they ruined Superman.
Yep, and Batman is somewhat incompetent, some of the superman fans here would love that.

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You mean like Tower of Babel where it is revealed he has plans to fight each member of the Justice League and it almost destroys them? Or the OMAC Project where he creates a spy satellite to spy on the League and the people? Or how about in Infinite Crisis when he told Clark "the last time you inspired anyone was when you died". Or how about how he and Dick Grayson pretty much didnt talk for about a decade in comics. (or if they did it was yelling at each other) How about when he formed the Outsiders (2 or 3 times) because he didnt want to be a part of the League and didnt seem to trust them...how about when it was found out he was hording kryptonite...

I worked in a comic store, edited an online comics magazine and have read comics since about '04 so yes I have read it. Every time they have a story where Batman shows he trusts someone a new mega story-arch comes around which shows Batman in his uber cynical, trust no one way. On the old DC boards it was a long running joke Batman never smiled. He was DC's answer to Wolverine, just a dark and brooding dick. For all of Snyder's faults his version of Batman at least seems human and Johns in Trinity War had Batman show actual compassion for his friends not act like a ******** worried his plan wont work.

As i said my problems with TDKR are more than just superman I didnt like the story and I hated the artwork. That is just how I felt when I read it. I preferred Batman in Kingdom Come when it comes to future Batman.
Well..




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I don't expect IMO, but your original post made it seem like everyone else had laughable opinions and that yours was superior. As I said before, opinions different than yours do not equal misunderstanding.

To me, TDKR came off as a bit of a batman fanboy fantasy. Yes, there was the tragedy of what they had become, but batman, as you just said, came off cool and badass in their fight. Superman didn't. He was a government lapdog. Perhaps the fact that I'm a superman fan and you just said you are not, has something to do with differing perspectives.
I never said Superman never came off as cool either, because he certainly does, he's never once underpowered, nor does he come off as dumb or overly harsh, the whole "mother earth" stuff he sprouts is insanely cool, he comes off as a far more balanced and practical person than Bruce does. Like i said....people focus on that fight, and unfortunately they always will hate a fight where Batman smacks the crap out of Superman, but I absolutely disagree that it's using Superman in a bad way to make Batman look good, that again just seems like a skewed opinion to me, when it's clear they both came off as bad, just so happened that one of them "won", why can't Superman fans accept that it's possible that someone might just have the luck, skill and smarts to beat Superman, because I assure you Bat-god or not, a lot of Bat-fans are fully aware and accepting of Bruce Waynes constant vulnerabilities.

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Old 06-11-2014, 06:41 PM   #373
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I don't know about him, but I hate it because it used superman as a vehicle to make batman look good. That kind of stuff is just my pet peeve.
Yep, I hate the TDKR and Frank Miller in general. It was a complete character assassination of Superman and I feel like if you have to make Superman look like an ass hole in order to make Batman look good then you're basically saying that Batman can't stand on his own two feet. A lot of Batman fans also forget that he only beat Superman with the aid of Green Arrow.

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Old 06-11-2014, 06:43 PM   #374
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Default Re: All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion - - - - - - - - - Part 61

If they must fight, they could do a lot worse than what we got in Hush. If you're gonna have them fight, at least let the circumstances be suitable. Superman was under mind control, Batman was trying to snap him out of it, and they made the proper acknowledgements.

Batman makes it clear that Supes is holding back, fighting the mind-control. He also states how he would be a mush on the pavement if he wasn't. Furthermore, he uses quite a few tricks to slow Supes down (supersonics, the city's power grid, Lois, and of course, Kyrptonite).

That's the proper way to do a physical Superman/Batman bout, if it must be done.




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Old 06-11-2014, 06:44 PM   #375
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Default Re: All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion - - - - - - - - - Part 61

Quote:
Originally Posted by KRYPTON INC. View Post
As someone with a more than passing familiarity with martial arts I agree with you... That is a stretch of analogies.

Not to dismiss your years of expertise, but... We are talking about a being with senses that stretch across the visible AND invisible spectrums compared to humans, plus microscopic and atomic levels of focus, oh, and enhansed other senses and his own built in welding torch that he has precise enough control that he cann either heat up a door handle, cauterize a wound or turn an I-beam to slag in seconds if he lets lose. Is a good solid welding job after being guided by professionals really a stretch?

And again, with expert guidance how is someone with ALL of Supes' powers not going to put up a building in record time? Even waiting for concrete to dry properly he'd have most work done in a fraction of a time using way less resources than a construction crew would require. He's going to need specialists to teach him things for sure, but that's reasonable. But it seems more than likely to me that he could do it. Plus, frankly he was raised on a farm. He's probably not too unfamiliar with construction. Surely not on the level of a modern skyscraper or the exacting standards that would require, but he's probably done his fair share of using his powers to build and repair stuff. I really don't see what I'm proposing as so out there.
Sorry, but it is.

We have devices and machines that duplicate basically most of Superman's powers. Yet there are practical limits to how much you can speed things up no matter how much power you throw at it.

Unless you go with perfect supermemory superintelligent Supergod Superman there is no way he can grasp and handle all the detailed craft information in the multiple disciplines involved in construction of multiple modern buildings. Even considering his superspeed, the people giving him information or guidance will have to do it at normal human pace, and it means they would need to provide him with thousands and thousands of hours of instruction. Maybe he can handle but you would have all the teachers as bottlenecks, which is what I meant with the fighting analogy. Sure you can have a fit athlete who can take instruction, but having people at the corner shouting instructions is not going to work within the parameters needed for successful applications in the time-frame.

Small buildings as those in farms can be built with basic carpentry skills. The average high building involves much more complex skills. Just reading blueprints, which would need to be provided by thousands, is something that can baffle most non-trained people. This week I am redesigning an equipment area because the university-educated electromechanical engineer simply did not understood the implications of the placement of the projected slab in the context of the other civil works and how it would affect air flow. A month of work in design, drawing and cost estimation was wasted because he came up with a realization of future just when looking at the stuff being done on site. We had already materials bought and piled up. It means a quarter million in expenses.

Sure Superman can help rebuild and speed things up, mostly by handling bulk mass movement, displacement of prefabricated elements, etc. Sure he can use heat vision to weld but will he use fillet weld or penetration weld and use the proper electrode thickness in each place? HE WILL SPEED THINGS UP, but the whole scenario of Superman just blurring through the site and making it go up in a hurry is unfeasible.

Of course, it is all a fantasy scenario so feel free to suspend disbelief to skip construction logistics. Its no big deal.

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