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Old 06-30-2014, 11:39 AM   #76
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Default Re: Is anyone else not excited about Superman and Batman? I feel nothing but dread.

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I should've known better than to waste my time. Batman fanboys.
Considering the argument you presented, yes, you should have known better.

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Old 06-30-2014, 11:45 AM   #77
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Default Re: Is anyone else not excited about Superman and Batman? I feel nothing but dread.

MoS had some brilliant moments, the problem was the film in between them.

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Old 06-30-2014, 11:45 AM   #78
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Default Re: Is anyone else not excited about Superman and Batman? I feel nothing but dread.

Bond with Craig is another example.

Imo the Mos franchise is not up there yet, but has the potential to do it.

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Is it real? Or a wig? Maybe he wears a wig in the movie cause he is bald and then at the end of the movie he rips off the wig and throws it at Superman.
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Old 06-30-2014, 11:46 AM   #79
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Default Re: Is anyone else not excited about Superman and Batman? I feel nothing but dread.

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Its amazing in retrospect, how influential Donner's Superman has remained. Even Snyder seemed surprised about people clinging to the Reeve version of Superman. I think many people like him overlook the reasons why people cling to things; and in Reeve's case it was because it has yet to be equaled (let alone surpassed.)
Interesting since he/Goyer clinged onto it too. MOS was pretty much Donner's films with some changes here and there and condensed into a shorter film.

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Old 06-30-2014, 11:48 AM   #80
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Default Re: Is anyone else not excited about Superman and Batman? I feel nothing but dread.

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Considering the argument you presented, yes, you should have known better.


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Despite the perceived over abundance of remakes and reboots, the Nolan films are fast becoming that very rare example of a franchise that previously enjoyed success on a large financial and cultural scale that was not only replicated but topped.

I can't seem to think of anything else on the same level, I guess the closest would be what Fox is doing with the Apes franchise. It's going to be REAL interesting to see what happens with Downey Jr is done with Iron Man.
Nolan knew how to actually be inspired by other works while actually bringing something new to the table. Some fans act like MOS was this completely unique experience, but its story is essentially Superman: The Movie, Superman II, and Batman Begins thrown into a blender and mixed together. It pretty much follows the current trends as well. MOS followed the Nolan formula, and now B vs S is trying to do the universe building/crossover type film that Avengers made popular.

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Interesting since he/Goyer clinged onto it too. MOS was pretty much Donner's films with some changes here and there and condensed into a shorter film.
Yup. Its the same car, just with a different coat of paint.

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Old 06-30-2014, 12:39 PM   #81
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Default Re: Is anyone else not excited about Superman and Batman? I feel nothing but dread.

Goyer is out, Terrio is in.

I blame Goyer more than Snyder for MOS, so that's one big, big plus.

I believe Snyder is alright with the right script. So Terrio has to make the save.

In conclusion: Terrio.

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Old 06-30-2014, 01:24 PM   #82
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Default Re: Is anyone else not excited about Superman and Batman? I feel nothing but dread.

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Goyer is out, Terrio is in.

I blame Goyer more than Snyder for MOS, so that's one big, big plus.

I believe Snyder is alright with the right script. So Terrio has to make the save.

In conclusion: Terrio.
Goyer's role was to come up with the story. He is still credited with that for this film.

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Old 06-30-2014, 03:30 PM   #83
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Default Re: Is anyone else not excited about Superman and Batman? I feel nothing but dread.

For me , there are alot of unknowns , which can be exciting, but also be kinda a scary. This film will have alot of firsts. The first time Batman and Superman are on screen together in live action ever, The first new Batman actor in ten years, The first appearance of Wonder Woman ever on screen, Jessie Eisenberg's first appearance as Lex, etc.

There is alot of room for falling below expectations and for exceeding them. There are lots of ways this thing can go sideways , and lots of ways it could be a game changer. It is a gamble , and it'd be naive to argue that it isn't.

The project has gotta be handled with care , and the script has to be good. In a way its exciting because WB usually doesn't go for gambles like this. Everyone is gonna be watching to see what happens...

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Old 06-30-2014, 04:05 PM   #84
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Default Re: Is anyone else not excited about Superman and Batman? I feel nothing but dread.

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Exactly. Man of Steel is better than SR in concept alone. It took them a while to move on from the Donner era, far too long for my liking.
I agree. Getting free of the Donner era is what Superman has been needing for a long while.

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Old 06-30-2014, 04:32 PM   #85
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Default Re: Is anyone else not excited about Superman and Batman? I feel nothing but dread.

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I agree. Getting free of the Donner era is what Superman has been needing for a long while.
I totally agree.

And please, before anyone starts, I love the Donner films, and yes, I would agree that on the whole, Superman '78 is a better overall film that MOS. But I still enjoy both and I think that MOS did a good job of moving on from the Donner influence, which was what had to happen.

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Old 06-30-2014, 04:44 PM   #86
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Default Re: Is anyone else not excited about Superman and Batman? I feel nothing but dread.

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For me , there are alot of unknowns , which can be exciting, but also be kinda a scary. This film will have alot of firsts. The first time Batman and Superman are on screen together in live action ever, The first new Batman actor in ten years, The first appearance of Wonder Woman ever on screen, Jessie Eisenberg's first appearance as Lex, etc.

There is alot of room for falling below expectations and for exceeding them. There are lots of ways this thing can go sideways , and lots of ways it could be a game changer. It is a gamble , and it'd be naive to argue that it isn't.

The project has gotta be handled with care , and the script has to be good. In a way its exciting because WB usually doesn't go for gambles like this. Everyone is gonna be watching to see what happens...
Perhaps it's a gamble in some ways, but actually, I think it's very much on trend with what other studios are doing - which offers WB the most promise in making money. It's very much on trend since Marvel has established an expanded cinematic universe, and Sony, less successfully, has introduced an expanded universe with the TASM series. Marvel gambled and became incredibly successful so WB is attempting to capitalize on this trend as well. Without Marvel taking the initial gamble, WB would not be taking the risks that you outlined.

A film like Batman Begins and The Dark Knight is arguably a greater gamble than what WB is doing now with their comic book films. Those films started trends whereas this one, based on the facts that are known so far, is following trends.

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Old 06-30-2014, 05:05 PM   #87
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Default Re: Is anyone else not excited about Superman and Batman? I feel nothing but dread.

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Perhaps it's a gamble in some ways, but actually, I think it's very much on trend with what other studios are doing - which offers WB the most promise in making money. It's very much on trend since Marvel has established an expanded cinematic universe, and Sony, less successfully, has introduced an expanded universe with the TASM series. Marvel gambled and became incredibly successful so WB is attempting to capitalize on this trend as well. Without Marvel taking the initial gamble, WB would not be taking the risks that you outlined.

A film like Batman Begins and The Dark Knight is arguably a greater gamble than what WB is doing now with their comic book films. Those films started trends whereas this one, based on the facts that are known so far, is following trends.
No WB;s greatest gamble IMO was Superman Returns. I mean if you look at that film it took great balls to put out a movie with very little action, give Superman and Lois a child, and follow a 25 year gap in between films. As I have said I loved Man of Steel but I also thought Returns was a great movie and beautifully shot. I think it was a good closing to the Donner world and would have loved to see where it could have gone. However in the same I am very happy with what we have now and looking very much forward to where it all is going.

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Old 06-30-2014, 05:09 PM   #88
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Default Re: Is anyone else not excited about Superman and Batman? I feel nothing but dread.

I didn't say those other movies were the greatest gamble, but they were a "greater" gamble. Just to be clear.

And yeah, I can see your point with the Superman Returns part.

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Old 06-30-2014, 05:15 PM   #89
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Default Re: Is anyone else not excited about Superman and Batman? I feel nothing but dread.

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I didn't say those other movies were the greatest gamble, but they were a "greater" gamble. Just to be clear.

And yeah, I can see your point with the Superman Returns part.
Returns is also a gamble if you take a movie that just made 400+ million (which at that time was not a laughing matter and was considered good by any other studios standards) and reboot it (which is why I consider Man of Steel a gamble too) because Returns like it or not was liked by the public it was not loved but it was liked.

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Old 06-30-2014, 05:36 PM   #90
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Default Re: Is anyone else not excited about Superman and Batman? I feel nothing but dread.

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Perhaps it's a gamble in some ways, but actually, I think it's very much on trend with what other studios are doing - which offers WB the most promise in making money. It's very much on trend since Marvel has established an expanded cinematic universe, and Sony, less successfully, has introduced an expanded universe with the TASM series. Marvel gambled and became incredibly successful so WB is attempting to capitalize on this trend as well. Without Marvel taking the initial gamble, WB would not be taking the risks that you outlined.

A film like Batman Begins and The Dark Knight is arguably a greater gamble than what WB is doing now with their comic book films. Those films started trends whereas this one, based on the facts that are known so far, is following trends.
To be fair to WB, they've wanted to make this film or some sort of team up film since 2002. As fate would have it , Nolan came along and sort put those plans on the back burner for a decade. Now with Nolan gone , they basically are doing what they've always wanted to do which is at the very least have a Batman and Superman team up film. However, Marvel is certainly a driving force behind it.

I wouldn't say BB or TDK were gambles at all. The studio knew they would make money even despite B&R, and bringing the Joker back pretty much meant the TDK was gonna make a fortune. The film series had proven since the 80's that they could make money and it was basically only one real bad film that stopped the gravy train for a while. Even then, WB was more than willing to make more films as long as they had the right formula.

I would say SR was probably a greater gamble than the Nolan films because that franchise had been dead for 20 years before a new film was released, and they tried to link it with the old Reeve films .

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Old 06-30-2014, 05:59 PM   #91
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Default Re: Is anyone else not excited about Superman and Batman? I feel nothing but dread.

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Yup. Neither "Superman Returns" nor "Man of Steel" were good enough to make you forget about the Donner films.

Compare that to the Batman films, where the Nolan trilogy managed to replace The Burton films as the gold standard.
Why would anybody want to forget about the Donner-verse OR the Burton films? I don't think people have. SM:TM and Batman '89 are just CLASSIC. Nolans Bat-trilogy is the new-age jackpot with the genre but I wouldn't say it replaced the Burton films as the gold standard. At all.

The studio itself wanted to move away from the Burton films as a whole because, at the time, Batman Returns was considered way too dark and frightening so they switched gears. So, in that light, the studio wanted a new standard for the Bat-franchise anyhow while they still wanted to move along with the Donner-verse with Supes.

Once Batman and Robin pretty much turned Batman into a laughing stock, the Bat-franchise was in such a poor state that moving to a serious and modern Batman with a director and vision of Chris Nolan, it was the perfect storm for the Batman character to recapture that magic, but it wasn't Batman Begins that did it.

It was The Dark Knight.

Superman on the other hand, the studio wanted to re-create the Donner-verse with Superman Returns and it did nothing but fall flat, though, not a complete embarrassment to the franchise like Batman and Robin put the Bat franchise in.

What I'm trying to say, is though you can probably blame Superman Returns for making people NOT forget about a classic like SM:TM (because it indeed existed in its same universe and fell flat) you simply can't blame Man of Steel for trying to make people forget the Donner-verse because that wasn't Man of Steel's intention when it came to its creators.

If somebody tries to go into a project trying to top a classic and beloved version of a character, chances are you're going to fail. With Man of Steel, it was the right direction for the modern Superman to finally break away from those shackles.

All the studio and Zack Snyder said was "Look, that's that and this is this. PERIOD. Don't compare them. They aren't the same."

All the studio wanted to do with Man of Steel is establish its own identity, far away from SM:TM so why would they want people to forget about Reeve and SM:TM? Makes no sense.

Besides, Superman: The Movie is THEE Godfather of superhero films to begin with. The Burton Films did an amazing thing with Batman.

Superman: The Movie did an amazing thing with the GENRE itself. Tough to live up to! Let this MoS/Justice League-verse do its own things. These comparisons are moronic.

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Old 06-30-2014, 06:12 PM   #92
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Default Re: Is anyone else not excited about Superman and Batman? I feel nothing but dread.

SHH: Where people make long posts based off taking your post way too literally.

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Old 06-30-2014, 06:15 PM   #93
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Default Re: Is anyone else not excited about Superman and Batman? I feel nothing but dread.

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Nolan knew how to actually be inspired by other works while actually bringing something new to the table. Some fans act like MOS was this completely unique experience, but its story is essentially Superman: The Movie, Superman II, and Batman Begins thrown into a blender and mixed together. It pretty much follows the current trends as well. MOS followed the Nolan formula, and now B vs S is trying to do the universe building/crossover type film that Avengers made popular.



Yup. Its the same car, just with a different coat of paint.
Not exactly. Donnor's feels like a hollow knockoff versus the high emotion in Snyder's film. It is in the mold of Begins, though.

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Old 06-30-2014, 06:17 PM   #94
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Default Re: Is anyone else not excited about Superman and Batman? I feel nothing but dread.

The Irony of calling something hollow in comparison to MOS.

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Old 06-30-2014, 06:27 PM   #95
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Default Re: Is anyone else not excited about Superman and Batman? I feel nothing but dread.

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Not exactly. Donnor's feels like a hollow knockoff versus the high emotion in Snyder's film. It is in the mold of Begins, though.
The bold part makes any part of your statement or future statements already off kilter.

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Old 06-30-2014, 06:41 PM   #96
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Default Re: Is anyone else not excited about Superman and Batman? I feel nothing but dread.

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Yup. Its the same car, just with a different coat of paint.
And I remember there being complaints of seeing Zod again.

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Old 06-30-2014, 06:51 PM   #97
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And I remember there being complaints of seeing Zod again.
Yup. Zod is only relevant due to the Donner films, too.

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Old 06-30-2014, 06:55 PM   #98
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Default Re: Is anyone else not excited about Superman and Batman? I feel nothing but dread.

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Why would anybody want to forget about the Donner-verse OR the Burton films? I don't think people have. SM:TM and Batman '89 are just CLASSIC. Nolans Bat-trilogy is the new-age jackpot with the genre but I wouldn't say it replaced the Burton films as the gold standard. At all.

The studio itself wanted to move away from the Burton films as a whole because, at the time, Batman Returns was considered way too dark and frightening so they switched gears. So, in that light, the studio wanted a new standard for the Bat-franchise anyhow while they still wanted to move along with the Donner-verse with Supes.

Once Batman and Robin pretty much turned Batman into a laughing stock, the Bat-franchise was in such a poor state that moving to a serious and modern Batman with a director and vision of Chris Nolan, it was the perfect storm for the Batman character to recapture that magic, but it wasn't Batman Begins that did it.

It was The Dark Knight.

Superman on the other hand, the studio wanted to re-create the Donner-verse with Superman Returns and it did nothing but fall flat, though, not a complete embarrassment to the franchise like Batman and Robin put the Bat franchise in.

What I'm trying to say, is though you can probably blame Superman Returns for making people NOT forget about a classic like SM:TM (because it indeed existed in its same universe and fell flat) you simply can't blame Man of Steel for trying to make people forget the Donner-verse because that wasn't Man of Steel's intention when it came to its creators.

If somebody tries to go into a project trying to top a classic and beloved version of a character, chances are you're going to fail. With Man of Steel, it was the right direction for the modern Superman to finally break away from those shackles.

All the studio and Zack Snyder said was "Look, that's that and this is this. PERIOD. Don't compare them. They aren't the same."

All the studio wanted to do with Man of Steel is establish its own identity, far away from SM:TM so why would they want people to forget about Reeve and SM:TM? Makes no sense.

Besides, Superman: The Movie is THEE Godfather of superhero films to begin with. The Burton Films did an amazing thing with Batman.

Superman: The Movie did an amazing thing with the GENRE itself. Tough to live up to! Let this MoS/Justice League-verse do its own things. These comparisons are moronic.
QFT. Excellent points, as usual, Tra-El!

Btw, it doesn't surprise me a thread about dreading the upcoming film (lol, there's not even a script leak yet) has turned into a MOS hate-fest.

For the record, MOS made me care about Superman again for the first time in a long time. Cavill rocks, loved that movie!

One more thing. Even though MOS is not what this thread's supposed to be about, I'm glad this thread exists. The haters have claimed a spot. Good. Now I know which thread to ignore , and the haters will hopefully not spread their negativity to the threads I do enjoy. Win, win.

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Old 06-30-2014, 07:04 PM   #99
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Yup. Zod is only relevant due to the Donner films, too.
They made him have his goatee too.

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He’s much more of a working class superhero, which is why we ended the whole book with the image of a laboring Superman. He’s Everyman operating on a sci–fi Paul Bunyan scale." - Grant Morrison

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Old 06-30-2014, 07:08 PM   #100
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Default Re: Is anyone else not excited about Superman and Batman? I feel nothing but dread.

Too bad they couldn't make him be interesting, too.

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