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Old 06-30-2014, 08:12 PM   #101
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Default Re: Is anyone else not excited about Superman and Batman? I feel nothing but dread.

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Why would anybody want to forget about the Donner-verse OR the Burton films? I don't think people have. SM:TM and Batman '89 are just CLASSIC. Nolans Bat-trilogy is the new-age jackpot with the genre but I wouldn't say it replaced the Burton films as the gold standard. At all.

The studio itself wanted to move away from the Burton films as a whole because, at the time, Batman Returns was considered way too dark and frightening so they switched gears. So, in that light, the studio wanted a new standard for the Bat-franchise anyhow while they still wanted to move along with the Donner-verse with Supes.

Once Batman and Robin pretty much turned Batman into a laughing stock, the Bat-franchise was in such a poor state that moving to a serious and modern Batman with a director and vision of Chris Nolan, it was the perfect storm for the Batman character to recapture that magic, but it wasn't Batman Begins that did it.

It was The Dark Knight.

Superman on the other hand, the studio wanted to re-create the Donner-verse with Superman Returns and it did nothing but fall flat, though, not a complete embarrassment to the franchise like Batman and Robin put the Bat franchise in.

What I'm trying to say, is though you can probably blame Superman Returns for making people NOT forget about a classic like SM:TM (because it indeed existed in its same universe and fell flat) you simply can't blame Man of Steel for trying to make people forget the Donner-verse because that wasn't Man of Steel's intention when it came to its creators.

If somebody tries to go into a project trying to top a classic and beloved version of a character, chances are you're going to fail. With Man of Steel, it was the right direction for the modern Superman to finally break away from those shackles.

All the studio and Zack Snyder said was "Look, that's that and this is this. PERIOD. Don't compare them. They aren't the same."

All the studio wanted to do with Man of Steel is establish its own identity, far away from SM:TM so why would they want people to forget about Reeve and SM:TM? Makes no sense.

Besides, Superman: The Movie is THEE Godfather of superhero films to begin with. The Burton Films did an amazing thing with Batman.

Superman: The Movie did an amazing thing with the GENRE itself. Tough to live up to! Let this MoS/Justice League-verse do its own things. These comparisons are moronic.
I think I would agree with everything except the influence of the Nolan films. I think the Nolan films will be a goal standard for these type of films in the future as opposed to Batman 89. You've already seeing Nolan's influence in a variety of franchise films including superhero films , and I doubt that's gonna going forward.

I still think B89 will be considered a classic but I doubt its gonna be the model that filmmakers follow, and I don't really see it as a model filmmakers have followed as much a STM is a model that's been followed. These are classic films but in terms of influence on the genre, STM has been much more prevalent than B89. B89 showed Hollywood how these films could be massive blockbusters and introduced the GA to the Dark Batman we all know today, but I wouldn't say its a goal standard .

Ultimately the Nolan films, like Donner transcends the genre , and that's the model that filmmakers in the future will aspire to more than the more contained and traditional comic book film WB was going for at the time.

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Old 06-30-2014, 08:16 PM   #102
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Too bad they couldn't make him be interesting, too.
I guess there's a chance for Lex if he isn't a Kingpin knockoff.

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Old 06-30-2014, 09:26 PM   #103
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Default Re: Is anyone else not excited about Superman and Batman? I feel nothing but dread.

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Yup. Zod is only relevant due to the Donner films, too.
Even then, his Zod didn't do anything memorable except for the KNEEL! schtick.

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Old 06-30-2014, 09:31 PM   #104
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Default Re: Is anyone else not excited about Superman and Batman? I feel nothing but dread.

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I guess there's a chance for Lex if he isn't a Kingpin knockoff.
But Lencho...thats the version most people like.

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Old 06-30-2014, 10:41 PM   #105
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Forget Zod, it's time for Metallo.


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Old 07-01-2014, 12:03 AM   #106
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Default Re: Is anyone else not excited about Superman and Batman? I feel nothing but dread.

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With Man of Steel, it was the right direction for the modern Superman to finally break away from those shackles.

All the studio and Zack Snyder said was "Look, that's that and this is this. PERIOD. Don't compare them. They aren't the same."

All the studio wanted to do with Man of Steel is establish its own identity, far away from SM:TM so why would they want people to forget about Reeve and SM:TM? Makes no sense.

Can we just quote this whenever someone complains about MOS because it's so different than STM? I love both movies but for different reasons, and to compare them is a bit unfair for everyone involved.

On a different note, why does this thread even exist? If someone isn't excited about this unreleased movie, you shouldn't worry/hate/philosophize about it at all. You ignore the PR and pretend it doesn't exist. Or make a blog and spew your hatred in there. Just my two cents.

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Old 07-01-2014, 12:19 AM   #107
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Default Re: Is anyone else not excited about Superman and Batman? I feel nothing but dread.

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Interesting since he/Goyer clinged onto it too. MOS was pretty much Donner's films with some changes here and there and condensed into a shorter film.
That's a very interesting point of view! I think it will take a true visionary to take Superman in new directions instead of just rehashing previous movies.

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Old 07-01-2014, 12:28 AM   #108
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Default Re: Is anyone else not excited about Superman and Batman? I feel nothing but dread.

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Goyer's role was to come up with the story. He is still credited with that for this film.
You know how film writing credits work. One can still be credited even if the final product is vastly different from your original output.

Goyer's role was to write it. Then Terrio came in, and now he's writing.

So Terrio has the ball.

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Old 07-01-2014, 02:07 AM   #109
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Default Re: Is anyone else not excited about Superman and Batman? I feel nothing but dread.

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But Lencho...thats the version most people like.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. But, DCAU Lex was able to go from Kingpin knockoff (with no scientist skills) to President (with some scientist skills in there) to Legion of Doom (with even more scientist skills) Lex. So... maybe anything is possible?

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That's a very interesting point of view! I think it will take a true visionary to take Superman in new directions instead of just rehashing previous movies.
I don't know... I thought it was pretty obvious. They even threw in a female and very tall male subordinate. I doubt there will be anything visionary about this Superman.

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Old 07-01-2014, 03:40 AM   #110
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Default Re: Is anyone else not excited about Superman and Batman? I feel nothing but dread.

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Can we just quote this whenever someone complains about MOS because it's so different than STM?
I have never - not once - seen anyone make that complaint.

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I love both movies but for different reasons, and to compare them is a bit unfair for everyone involved.
Comparisons are going to happen. They're inevitable. If someone makes a comparison because they legitimately found one aspect of a film lacking in comparison to its successor/predecessor, then that's just how it is.

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On a different note, why does this thread even exist?
The same reason every other thread on this forum exists.

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Old 07-01-2014, 07:53 AM   #111
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Default Re: Is anyone else not excited about Superman and Batman? I feel nothing but dread.

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I have never - not once - seen anyone make that complaint.
I know a lot of people like to use 'love of the Donner films' as an excuse for a lot of the bad reviews... but yeah, i've not seen anyone specificially say 'It was awful because it was so different from STM'

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Old 07-01-2014, 11:04 AM   #112
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Default Re: Is anyone else not excited about Superman and Batman? I feel nothing but dread. -

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And yet Man of Steel will be forgotten and Superman The Movie will still remain part of American movie masterpieces canon like The Godfather or Citizen Kane, being thaught in film schools and campuses all over the country while MOS will probably land somewhere in the bargain bin a few years from now on.
LMAO. Comparing Superman The Movie to The Godfather or Citizen Kane? I think some posters here overrate the movie a little bit

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Old 07-01-2014, 11:09 AM   #113
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Default Re: Is anyone else not excited about Superman and Batman? I feel nothing but dread.

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I know a lot of people like to use 'love of the Donner films' as an excuse for a lot of the bad reviews... but yeah, i've not seen anyone specificially say 'It was awful because it was so different from STM' :whatever:
Yeah, they'd never SAY that, but that is exactly the reason some would give a bad review for anything that wasn't like the Donner films. (or the Burton films, or the Nolan films, etc.)

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Old 07-01-2014, 11:21 AM   #114
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Default Re: Is anyone else not excited about Superman and Batman? I feel nothing but dread.

People just weren't ready for a darker take on Superman. Plain and simple. S:TM set a tonal standard for Superman that everyone expects and MoS took a radical shift in another direction. As with any jarring change, it will take time for people to accept it and get used to it.

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Old 07-01-2014, 11:34 AM   #115
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Default Re: Is anyone else not excited about Superman and Batman? I feel nothing but dread.

I'd say it was more like (some) people just weren't ready for a mediocre take on Superman.

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Originally Posted by Lencho01 View Post
Yeah, yeah, yeah. But, DCAU Lex was able to go from Kingpin knockoff (with no scientist skills) to President (with some scientist skills in there) to Legion of Doom (with even more scientist skills) Lex. So... maybe anything is possible?
And that's why DCUA Lex is the best Lex. Because he was being written by guys who actually knew and respected Lex's entire history.



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I don't know... I thought it was pretty obvious. They even threw in a female and very tall male subordinate. I doubt there will be anything visionary about this Superman.
Yeah...even if the films get better than MOS, I'm not expecting something as visionary as Nolan's Batman.

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Old 07-01-2014, 11:38 AM   #116
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Default Re: Is anyone else not excited about Superman and Batman? I feel nothing but dread.

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Yeah, they'd never SAY that, but that is exactly the reason some would give a bad review for anything that wasn't like the Donner films. (or the Burton films, or the Nolan films, etc.)
That's a big assumption...

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People just weren't ready for a darker take on Superman. Plain and simple. S:TM set a tonal standard for Superman that everyone expects and MoS took a radical shift in another direction. As with any jarring change, it will take time for people to accept it and get used to it.
People didn't seem to have a hard time transitioning from Batman and Robin to the TDK trilogy.

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Old 07-01-2014, 11:40 AM   #117
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Default Re: Is anyone else not excited about Superman and Batman? I feel nothing but dread.

Honestly, i was never really a fan of the Donner movies anyway.

My criticisms of MoS take into account only the things seen in the film itself.

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Old 07-01-2014, 11:42 AM   #118
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Default Re: Is anyone else not excited about Superman and Batman? I feel nothing but dread.

I would imagine that is because B& R was a campier version of Batman, and the TDK trilogy was closer how people see Batman today .

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Old 07-01-2014, 11:43 AM   #119
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Default Re: Is anyone else not excited about Superman and Batman? I feel nothing but dread.

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I'd say it was more like (some) people just weren't ready for a mediocre take on Superman.

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Old 07-01-2014, 11:43 AM   #120
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Default Re: Is anyone else not excited about Superman and Batman? I feel nothing but dread.

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Honestly, i was never really a fan of the Donner movies anyway.

My criticisms of MoS take into account only the things seen in the film itself.
This. People seem to conveniently forget that the Donner films don't mean anything to the newer generations of the GA. Anyone under the age of 36 was not even born when that movie came out, let alone able to be a huge fan of it.

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Old 07-01-2014, 11:45 AM   #121
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Default Re: Is anyone else not excited about Superman and Batman? I feel nothing but dread.

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I would imagine that is because B& R was a campier version of Batman, and the TDK trilogy was closer how people see Batman today .
Let's just face it. Snyder/Goyer tried to give Superman the "TDK" treatment and failed.

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Old 07-01-2014, 11:54 AM   #122
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Default Re: Is anyone else not excited about Superman and Batman? I feel nothing but dread.

You know what's funny, I've been watching the Bruce Timm cartoons lately and it never really hit me until recently but Superman was a huge d*** in those shows. Ok, maybe thats a strong word, but he was VERY no-nonsense, hardheaded and sometimes just plain mean. Point is, it seems like WB has long been trying to make Superman "edgy" and "dark" before MoS.

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Old 07-01-2014, 12:04 PM   #123
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Default Re: Is anyone else not excited about Superman and Batman? I feel nothing but dread. -

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LMAO. Comparing Superman The Movie to The Godfather or Citizen Kane? I think some posters here overrate the movie a little bit
Yeah. It's been a while since college but I've never heard of Superman ever being brought up in a film class.

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Old 07-01-2014, 12:38 PM   #124
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Default Re: Is anyone else not excited about Superman and Batman? I feel nothing but dread.

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You know how film writing credits work. One can still be credited even if the final product is vastly different from your original output.

Goyer's role was to write it. Then Terrio came in, and now he's writing.

So Terrio has the ball.
I don't think Terrio can create a good story. His strength is adapting from existing source material (like already written stories or novels). Just look at his resume. Terrio's real strength is writing back-story for the individual characters in a tale.

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Old 07-01-2014, 12:41 PM   #125
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Default Re: Is anyone else not excited about Superman and Batman? I feel nothing but dread. -

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I know a lot of people like to use 'love of the Donner films' as an excuse for a lot of the bad reviews... but yeah, i've not seen anyone specificially say 'It was awful because it was so different from STM'
It happens all the time, and it's annoying as hell.

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Yeah, they'd never SAY that, but that is exactly the reason some would give a bad review for anything that wasn't like the Donner films.
Just because some people feel that way doesn't mean most people do. Sometimes, people criticize a film because it didn't do enough to win them over based on its own merits. Ironically, I feel that the only people who even mention the Donnerverse on a regular basis around here are the ones who feel the need to **** on it or use it as an excuse to avoid addressing legitimate problems one might have with MOS.

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People just weren't ready for a darker take on Superman. Plain and simple.
Not true.

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S:TM set a tonal standard for Superman that everyone expects and MoS took a radical shift in another direction. As with any jarring change, it will take time for people to accept it and get used to it.
Or maybe they'd be more willing to accept it the first time around if it weren't done so poorly.

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