🇮🇱🇵🇸 The Israel-Palestine Politics Thread II

[DeadPresident]

Based on what is going on today, it looks like the allies created a monster. Not the Israeli people (a relative of mine visits Israel often and he said they're mostly secular people), but the government and its military. And with how much money is given to them by the US, it's like Israel is being used to fulfill the agenda of the American government, to the detriment of the Israeli people. At what point do these guys become completely autonomous and able to fight their own battles without the backing of the States? They're creating a ****storm and every effort that is made to calm the situation down is met with either ******** from the Israeli government or ******** from fringe Palestinian groups.

The problem is that Israel's paranoia, or the right-wing in Israel's paranoia, is maintained by the vehement and perpetual hate flung their way. I don't approve of how Israel's current administration treats the Palestinians, and the settlements are a massive obstacle to finding any workable solution, but Israel has to posture itself extremely radically or the surrounding countries will smell blood and make a move to attack them. For as long as Israel exists in that specific geographic zone they'll have countries that want to remove all Jews from the area. If the USA didn't back them I'd give them less than a decade before there's open war, and probably less than that before the concerted efforts of the surrounding countries would eventually be able to take the area.

It's easy for people to assume Israel's administration is heartless and cruel, and in many instances they are, but Israel's entire existence is predicated on the need to protect the existence of a specific group of people. If they back down from that, if the groups who want to eliminate Israel as a State, or Jews as a people, perceive weakness, they will move on that weakness. It's at an impasse at the moment, but a workable solution is going to be difficult to reach when Netanyahu's ilk and many Israeli Jews are still being told week in and week out that Iran is coming for them, and Iran may at some stage.

Israel under Netanyahu has become a monster, because force and bloodshed is the only thing that works in the ME. Israel has many elements of a liberal democracy, but they can't pretend the rest of the region plays by those rules. If Israel balks on its security it will be attacked sooner or later, there's no question about that, and the settlements are a way of growing their own ability to defend themselves. It's wrong, but it's pragmatic, and Netanyahu's concern is making Israel's continued existence a statistical certainty by any means necessary.

 

[TheVileOne]

Based on what is going on today, it looks like the allies created a monster. Not the Israeli people (a relative of mine visits Israel often and he said they're mostly secular people), but the government and its military. And with how much money is given to them by the US, it's like Israel is being used to fulfill the agenda of the American government, to the detriment of the Israeli people. At what point do these guys become completely autonomous and able to fight their own battles without the backing of the States? They're creating a ****storm and every effort that is made to calm the situation down is met with either bull from the Israeli government or bull from fringe Palestinian groups.

Plus, there's the whole issue of Biblical prophecy and that crap regarding when all the Jews are in Jerusalem, the second coming of Christ will happen.

Israel has a right to exist, and Israel has a right to defend itself. Did or did Israel not give up Gaza strip and its settlements in 2005? That's a fact. That happened. And what happened as a result of that move, which was a deliberate move to try and foster peace with the Palestinian Authority.

 

[Donner]

The problem is that Israel's paranoia, or the right-wing in Israel's paranoia, is maintained by the vehement and perpetual hate flung their way. I don't approve of how Israel's current administration treats the Palestinians, and the settlements are a massive obstacle to finding any workable solution, but Israel has to posture itself extremely radically or the surrounding countries will smell blood and make a move to attack them. For as long as Israel exists in that specific geographic zone they'll have countries that want to remove all Jews from the area. If the USA didn't back them I'd give them less than a decade before there's open war, and probably less than that before the concerted efforts of the surrounding countries would eventually be able to take the area.

It's easy for people to assume Israel's administration is heartless and cruel, and in many instances they are, but Israel's entire existence is predicated on the need to protect the existence of a specific group of people. If they back down from that, if the groups who want to eliminate Israel as a State, or Jews as a people, perceive weakness, they will move on that weakness. It's at an impasse at the moment, but a workable solution is going to be difficult to reach when Netanyahu's ilk and many Israeli Jews are still being told week in and week out that Iran is coming for them, and Iran may at some stage.

Israel under Netanyahu has become a monster, because force and bloodshed is the only thing that works in the ME. Israel has many elements of a liberal democracy, but they can't pretend the rest of the region plays by those rules. If Israel balks on its security it will be attacked sooner or later, there's no question about that, and the settlements are a way of growing their own ability to defend themselves. It's wrong, but it's pragmatic, and Netanyahu's concern is making Israel's continued existence a statistical certainty by any means necessary.

I don't know about that. Everyone knows Israel has the backing of the States (I mean as an ally). If any Middle Eastern country attacks them, the US will strike back with full force. I don't think the US needs to continually supply Israel with billions in dollars and military equipment in order to keep the other countries at bay, though. I think this just creates bigger problems because then the US is seen as constantly meddling in the affairs of sovereign nations.

I wouldn't really call the Palestinians flinging their pathetic missiles over to Israel (and being shot out of the air by the dome) a threat. Don't the Israelis sit on hilltops watching these missiles being shot down? Seems like entertainment more than anything else. And really sad trolling on the part of the Palestinians.

As far as Iran, it seems like the two should just settle this on their own terms, without the backing of anyone else. But we all know that wouldn't happen. At this point, they're both determined to wipe the other one out. And I don't know whether it's all political or if the religious element plays a bigger part in this. If it's religion, then there will never be peace.

 

[TheVileOne]

That's not Israel's fault.

 

[DeadPresident]

I don't know about that. Everyone knows Israel has the backing of the States (I mean as an ally). If any Middle Eastern country attacks them, the US will strike back with full force. I don't think the US needs to continually supply Israel with billions in dollars and military equipment in order to keep the other countries at bay, though. I think this just creates bigger problems because then the US is seen as constantly meddling in the affairs of sovereign nations.

That has been questionable lately, Obama's administration has during the majority of its tenure sided with the progress of the surrounding country's wishes rather than the safety of Israel. One of Iran's most senior clerics and longtime leaders made the statement that "Israel will not exist in 25 years" when the decision was made for Iran to be allowed to develop nuclear technology. There isn't the ironclad confidence that the USA will necessary strike back with full force or put its neck out to defend Israel under Obama's administration, that confidence may come back with a Republican presidency, but I'm not sure.

The military relationship between the US and Israel isn't as one-sided as some like to make out, it's much more symbiotic than that. The USA funds them, but a lot of Israel's R&D in terms of military technology and other kinds is shared with the USA in return, it's not one-sided donation.

I wouldn't really call the Palestinians flinging their pathetic missiles over to Israel (and being shot out of the air by the dome) a threat. Don't the Israelis sit on hilltops watching these missiles being shot down? Seems like entertainment more than anything else. And really sad trolling on the part of the Palestinians.

But their pathetic missiles and troublesome car bombs and suicide bombers do still kill Israelis from time to time, and not just Jewish Israelis either. The Iron Dome protects most of Israel's densely populated areas, but it's not infallible. If I were sitting behind impenetrable glass but someone kept firing a handgun at me, I'd still assume they wished me ill.

As far as Iran, it seems like the two should just settle this on their own terms, without the backing of anyone else. But we all know that wouldn't happen. At this point, they're both determined to wipe the other one out. And I don't know whether it's all political or if the religious element plays a bigger part in this. If it's religion, then there will never be peace.

That's a misconception, Israel has never openly threatened the existence of any other country, and it's definitely never communicated any sentiments of wanting to wipe anyone out. If no more attempts were made on Israel's existence they wouldn't initiate any armed conflict, the attempts by various parties to kill Israelis or undermine Israel's ability to defend itself is completely one-sided. Israel expanding their settlements is the current problem, but they're not antagonizing neighboring states.

That's not Israel's fault.

As understandable as your concern is surrounding these issues the way you communicate really doesn't help, try being a little more critical and nuanced in how you approach these discussions.

 

[DJ_KiDDvIcIOUs]

That's not Israel's fault.

You seem to not understand the fundamental difference between standing ones ground and actively antagonizing the other party. The only way this will ever get solved is if one of them decides to be the bigger state and not keep letting the fringe/extremist dictate how affairs are conducted. Their is plenty of blame to go around for each of them but anytime they try and sit down to talk some idiot does something and they act like that person is a direct representative of the other side so the they return in kind.

 

[Donner]

Just ignore TheVileOne. He doesn't contribute anything, just noise.

 

[DeadPresident]

To be fair, every time a solution has come close it tends not to be Israel that causes its breakdown. Even when Israel cedes pieces of land, or begins exploring the 2 state solution the Palestinians inevitably disagree with one or more parts. People also forget that when the Palestinians were given Gaza they voluntarily elected Hamas to represent them, which has the destruction of Israel as a Jewish state in its charter. Israel isn't the main problem when it comes to a solution, they want Jerusalem as the capital and certain pieces of land but historically haven't been unreasonable until Netanyahu came along.

The Palestinians invariably want inclusions in the agreement that put Israel at a disadvantage that groups like Hamas would be able to exploit.

 

[Donner]

But their pathetic missiles and troublesome car bombs and suicide bombers do still kill Israelis from time to time, and not just Jewish Israelis either. The Iron Dome protects most of Israel's densely populated areas, but it's not infallible. If I were sitting behind impenetrable glass but someone kept firing a handgun at me, I'd still assume they wished me ill.

I see it as if a small, wiry man wanted to fight a UFC fighter. They're allowed to defend themselves (or someone else), but it's not exactly right of them to respond with their full force if someone much smaller and weaker hits them. It would be like hitting a kid. I'm not saying Israel doesn't have the right to defend itself from attackers. I'm saying they go overboard. And civilians get killed. I know they're used as human shields, but it's exactly what the Palestinians want. To goad Israel into attacking and overdoing it and there being collateral damage.

That's a misconception, Israel has never openly threatened the existence of any other country, and it's definitely never communicated any sentiments of wanting to wipe anyone out. If no more attempts were made on Israel's existence they wouldn't initiate any armed conflict, the attempts by various parties to kill Israelis or undermine Israel's ability to defend itself is completely one-sided. Israel expanding their settlements is the current problem, but they're not antagonizing neighboring states.

They have. Since 2003, the government has made comments regarding Iran and reminding them that they, too, can be wiped off the map. That being said, the president of Israel did say in 2014 that Iran is not an enemy. So who knows what these guys are playing at.

Even if the relationship between the US and Israel isn't as one sided as it looks, there is still the issue of Israel wanting to mount attacks with the help of the US (or even without, but apparently that needs to be stated). I think Obama's administration played it carefully with Israel. They surely didn't want to be pulled into yet another war (costing trillions) with their economy the way it is.

 

[Donner]

To be fair, every time a solution has come close it tends not to be Israel that causes its breakdown. Even when Israel cedes pieces of land, or begins exploring the 2 state solution the Palestinians inevitably disagree with one or more parts. People also forget that when the Palestinians were given Gaza they voluntarily elected Hamas to represent them, which has the destruction of Israel as a Jewish state in its charter. Israel isn't the main problem when it comes to a solution, they want Jerusalem as the capital and certain pieces of land but historically haven't been unreasonable until Netanyahu came along.

The Palestinians invariably want inclusions in the agreement that put Israel at a disadvantage that groups like Hamas would be able to exploit.

Given that the US just elected Trump, it's hard to judge the Palestinians for this. Democracy is a ***** sometimes.

 

[DeadPresident]

I see it as if a small, wiry man wanted to fight a UFC fighter. They're allowed to defend themselves (or someone else), but it's not exactly right of them to respond with their full force if someone much smaller and weaker hits them. It would be like hitting a kid.

That seems like a slightly problematic analogy, Hamas and other radical elements being innocuous is only true for as long as Israel is the greatest strength in the region. The difference is even if Israel is the strongest, they don't pose an existential threat to any surrounding countries, the inverse is not true though.

It's like a small wiry man wanted to fight a UFC fighter, but would use a pistol to shoot that UFC fighter in the head when given the opportunity.

Actually, they have. Since 2003, the government has made comments regarding Iran and reminding them that they, too, can be wiped off the map. That being said, the president of Israel did say in 2014 that Iran is not an enemy. So who knows what these guys are playing at.

If I remember correctly that was in response to a threat, but I concede to your point. Israel saying "You can also be wiped off the map" is very different from several entities over several decades saying "We want you off the map".

Even if the relationship between the US and Israel isn't as one sided as it looks, there is still the issue of Israel wanting to mount attacks with the help of the US (or even without, but apparently that needs to be stated). I think Obama's administration played it carefully with Israel. They surely didn't want to be pulled into yet another war (costing trillions) with their economy the way it is.

The USA gains a lot in terms of intelligence, we shouldn't forget that several of the same states that have a problem with Israel have vowed vengeance against The Great Satan too. Israel is an invaluable outpost for the US to keep tabs on the happenings in the ME, especially with countries like Russia stoking the flames and inciting events in the region. Obama's administration didn't play it carefully so much as it neglected Israel in order to not antagonize the likes of Iran. Morally that's dubious, since only one of those parties has repeatedly communicated a desire to annihilate the other.

It might be a "what if" fallacy, but if Iran ever does use a nuclear weapon against another state, Obama will have been an instrumental reason why it was allowed to happen, all because he didn't want to rock the boat during his 8 years.

Given that the US just elected Trump, it's hard to judge the Palestinians for this. Democracy is a ***** sometimes.

Hah, true. But, Trump hasn't forced the Republicans to write a clause into the constitution or the RNC's documents that opposes the existential sovereignty of another nation state, though. When he does that it'll be equal.

The Palestinians had the opportunity to choose a more moderate representative that would've possibly accelerated an actual solution, instead they chose the group who doesn't want a compromise but wants to kill or evict every Jew on Israel's soil.

 

[BestGirl]

It's not Jordan's anymore. They surrendered their claim and sovereignty of the land in the 1980s. Spoils of war. To the victor goes the spoils. So why don't you ask Jordan why they don't want it back?

It's not a matter of handing the West Bank back to Jordan. The problem is that Israel proceeds to treat to treat the West Bank as though they own it, building settlements while simultaneously refusing to officially annex it and give the Palestinians who live there Israeli citizenship. It's a truly bizarre strategy, because Israelis talk constantly about a two state solution while pumping their own citizens into the region that is supposed to one day become independent. It makes no sense.

 

[BestGirl]

To be fair, every time a solution has come close it tends not to be Israel that causes its breakdown. Even when Israel cedes pieces of land, or begins exploring the 2 state solution the Palestinians inevitably disagree with one or more parts. People also forget that when the Palestinians were given Gaza they voluntarily elected Hamas to represent them, which has the destruction of Israel as a Jewish state in its charter. Israel isn't the main problem when it comes to a solution, they want Jerusalem as the capital and certain pieces of land but historically haven't been unreasonable until Netanyahu came along.

The Palestinians invariably want inclusions in the agreement that put Israel at a disadvantage that groups like Hamas would be able to exploit.

Insisting on having all of Jerusalem is pretty damned unreasonable, though, at least in Palestinian eyes. They claim half of it, as well, and Arabs make up the vast majority of the population of East Jerusalem.

And when you consider Israel's settlement policies, previous governments have not been at all reasonable.

 

[DeadPresident]

It's not a matter of handing the West Bank back to Jordan. The problem is that Israel proceeds to treat to treat the West Bank as though they own it, building settlements while simultaneously refusing to officially annex it and give the Palestinians who live there Israeli citizenship. It's a truly bizarre strategy, because Israelis talk constantly about a two state solution while pumping their own citizens into the region that is supposed to one day become independent. It makes no sense.

Israelis =/= Israel's governing administration, though. Likud is the significant party here, not "Israelis".

 

[Donner]

This sort of thing was brewing for decades and as such, I don't think Obama can be blamed for any attack that Iran might carry out. Not to mention that it's not up to the States to police the world. If anything, a more hard handed approach would have stoked the flames more. Let's not forget that because of the proxy war in Syria, millions of Syrians are spread out across the globe now. And the US just had to back the rebels because Iran and Russia were backing Assad. It's nonsense.

 

[BestGirl]

But Israel has done this almost from the moment it won the Territories in the Six Day War. Pretty much every administration, liberal or conservative, has made building and maintaining existing settlements an important part of its agenda. Only Ariel Sharon was willing to dismantle settlements in Gaza.

 

[DeadPresident]

Insisting on having all of Jerusalem is pretty damned unreasonable, though, at least in Palestinian eyes. They claim half of it, as well, and Arabs make up the vast majority of the population of East Jerusalem.

Except it isn't unreasonable as the population who originally lived there. They want Jerusalem and the Jewish holy sites under their control, considering they are originally Jewish sites that isn't that unreasonable, and considering Israel's entire reason for existing is to be a Jewish homeland having Jerusalem as a Jewish location more than Muslim seems logical.

Israel also doesn't want to control the Muslim holy sites, they just want control of their own back.

And when you consider Israel's settlement policies, previous governments have not been at all reasonable.

Reason seems to lose its appeal when people are detonating themselves on buses and in coffee shops. It's undesirable and I don't agree with it, but this isn't an easy situation and Israel prioritizes its continued existence over everything else, when the Palestinians want a permanent solution that doesn't leave Israel at a disadvantage a reasonable Israeli party will be there to listen, they have been the previous 9 times when a solution wasn't reached, and those scenarios didn't break down primarily due to Israel.

 

[TheVileOne]

As understandable as your concern is surrounding these issues the way you communicate really doesn't help, try being a little more critical and nuanced in how you approach these discussions.

No. What's good for the goose is good for the gander. I don't see anyone else here following that advice. I see no reason I should either.

 

[DeadPresident]

But Israel has done this almost from the moment it won the Territories in the Six Day War. Pretty much every administration, liberal or conservative, has made building and maintaining existing settlements an important part of its agenda. Only Ariel Sharon was willing to dismantle settlements in Gaza.

Yes - because they won the territories in a war, that's how it works. By all accounts they could've gone on the offensive and retaliated with sustained attacks across multiple decades against Egypt or Jordan, but they never initiated that, it was the neighboring countries that did that, unprovoked.

I don't agree with a lot of what Israel's ruling governments have done, but responding with force to attempts on your national security is precisely what a nation state does.

They need a person like Sharon back, but Israelis will never elect a moderate or a pacifist in the current climate, not considering the sentiments of the surrounding areas.

 

[DeadPresident]

This sort of thing was brewing for decades and as such, I don't think Obama can be blamed for any attack that Iran might carry out. Not to mention that it's not up to the States to police the world. If anything, a more hard handed approach would have stoked the flames more. Let's not forget that because of the proxy war in Syria, millions of Syrians are spread out across the globe now. And the US just had to back the rebels because Iran and Russia were backing Assad. It's nonsense.

He wouldn't be to blame for the attack, but he would be to blame for facilitating the circumstances that allowed it. Just from a logical point of view I find it odd to encourage nuclear power for a nation that has repeatedly stated intent to destroy another nation state, it's unprecedented.

The second part I agree about, the Syrian situation is tragic.

 

[Donner]

I really wonder how that will play out. If Syria could ever be a country again.

 

[DeadPresident]

No, I don't think it can. Ethnic cleanses and mass displacement of ethnic groups is a favorite pastime of countries in the ME. Leftists like to lie about there being some kind of "Arab solidarity", but really, there are multiple Arab/Muslim groups that can't stand one another the same way the Palestinians can't stand the Israelis.

Arab solidarity becomes a comical notion when the other states could have easily assimilated Palestinians decades ago, but they won't do that because ethnic identity in the ME is a religion all its own.

 

[TheVileOne]

But Israel has done this almost from the moment it won the Territories in the Six Day War. Pretty much every administration, liberal or conservative, has made building and maintaining existing settlements an important part of its agenda. Only Ariel Sharon was willing to dismantle settlements in Gaza.

What happened after they gave up the Gaza strip in the name of fostering peace? Please share that with us please.

 

[Donner]

No, I don't think it can. Ethnic cleanses and mass displacement of ethnic groups is a favorite pastime of countries in the ME. Leftists like to lie about there being some kind of "Arab solidarity", but really, there are multiple Arab/Muslim groups that can't stand one another the same way the Palestinians can't stand the Israelis.

Arab solidarity becomes a comical notion when the other states could have easily assimilated Palestinians decades ago, but they won't do that because ethnic identity in the ME is a religion all its own.

Just to point out, Turkey, Pakistan, Lebanon and Iran are the top countries in the entire world who take in the most refugees. Not just Syrian refugees. Refugees in general. These countries aren't all hopeless pits. Sometimes, they do things better than we do.

Also, I'm left leaning (if that wasn't obvious) and so your posts regarding leftists is kind of starting to bug me. Maybe don't make generalizations? I don't do or say half of the **** that you claim leftists do and it makes it hard not to retaliate in a snarky manner.

There is no solidarity, period. Look at how different factions of Christianity have treated each other over the years. Or how different races/ethnicities are treated. I won't say anything about Arab solidarity because I obviously don't believe it exists. But that's because solidarity in general is a pipe dream.

 

[DJ_KiDDvIcIOUs]

To be fair, every time a solution has come close it tends not to be Israel that causes its breakdown. Even when Israel cedes pieces of land, or begins exploring the 2 state solution the Palestinians inevitably disagree with one or more parts. People also forget that when the Palestinians were given Gaza they voluntarily elected Hamas to represent them, which has the destruction of Israel as a Jewish state in its charter. Israel isn't the main problem when it comes to a solution, they want Jerusalem as the capital and certain pieces of land but historically haven't been unreasonable until Netanyahu came along.

The Palestinians invariably want inclusions in the agreement that put Israel at a disadvantage that groups like Hamas would be able to exploit.

If you talk with the average Israeli/Palestinian they will tell you they just want to live in peace. Hamas is no for shady tactics like setting up shop in schools and using the Palestinians as human shields for their acts of cowardice so I'm gonna go out on a limb and say maybe, just maybe, that vote for Hamas to represent them was just a wee bit forced upon them.