6.11 Justice - Discussion Thread (Spoilers)

[triplet]

Might not want to hold your breath on that one.

LOL! True...



*here's me not holding my breath*

 

[Brainiac 8]

This conversation has now scared the monkey.

 

[triplet]

This conversation has now scared the monkey.

LOL!



Too funny....

 

[LL2K2]

That's only because Tom comes into peoples' homes every week, so naturally, they're going to think of him as Superman when he isn't.

I forgot those three important letters...I, M, and O.

 

[The Caped Knight]

You provide concrete proof that comic animated series are more influential to the general public than live action, I'm all ears...

Ok

Here this is for BATMAN : The Animated series [The Emmy Award
-winning series]

B:TAS is widely regarded by fans as the most iconic depiction of the Batman character and mythos; as well as the best animated series based on a comic book.

No doubt about it, BATMAN: THE ANIMATED series is the best animated Batman series to date. And next to the live-action BATMAN BEGINS, the finest adaptation of the Batman comic books.

It’s funny, while the movies of the late 80s and 90s were getting thing all so wrong, all the people behind this animated Batman (Dini, Burnett, Timm, Radomski, and all the others) were getting it all so right.[/b]

http://www.batman-on-film.com/historyofthebatman_tv_animated_btas.html

BATMAN: MASK OF THE PHANTASM has one of the best scenes in any Bat-film -- live-action or animated. We are shown the young Bruce Wayne suiting up as The Batman for the first time. You see him as a shadow, attiring himself in his crime fighting garb. But that’s not the part that makes the scene great -- it is Alfred’s reaction upon seeing Bruce for the first time as The Batman: a combination of shock and fear.

At the time, the 1989 live-action BATMAN directed by Tim Burton was the best Bat-film to date. A year and a half earlier, I had been tremendously disappointed in its follow-up sequel, BATMAN RETURNS. When I first watched MOTP I was sort of surprised how good it was. Not that I thought it was going to be poor -- I watched the television show and was a fan of it. However, this animated film was not only better than the live-action RETURNS, I thought it was better than BATMAN. And this was something at the time I did not want to admit.

I absolutely love this film. Before I began writing this review/retrospective, I almost forgot how good it actually is. It had been years since I watched it -- my daughter had poured orange juice on my tape when she was about 3 or 4. She is almost eleven now, so that should tell you how long it had been!

It is virtually unanimous among Batman fans that the creative team of Dini, Timm, and Burnett “get” what The Batman and his world is all about. That is more than evident in their MOTP. In fact, the animated Bat-films -- MOTP, BATMAN: SUBZERO, and BATMAN BEYOND: RETURN OF THE JOKER all surpass the final three Burton/Schumacher BATMAN pictures in quality. Not once in any of those films was The Batman a joke. Never too macabre, weird, or over-the-top campy.

It is almost a damn shame that animated films -- aimed at kids -- were of better quality than the live-action films during that era. And that is meant as a compliment to the creative teams behind those animated pictures.

http://www.batman-on-film.com/review_jett_phantasm.html

Bruce Timm's gorgeous designs, Eric Radomski's beautiful backgrounds painted on black, incredible scripts by the likes of Paul Dini, and a cast of voice talent that's just dead-on perfect - where do we begin to count the ways in which we love this show? And how influential has it been? Heck, Kevin Smith named his daughter after one of the characters. Seriously - Batman: the Animated Series is the definitive version of the Dark Knight's adventures. Every little sweet detail is so, so satisfying - from Kevin Conroy's portrayal of a Batman who's both human and hero, to Efrem Zimbalist's deliciously cynical yet unquestionably loyal Alfred, to Mark Hamill's definitive Joker (who'da thought Luke Skywalker could be so damn scary?) everything about this show, down to the last Bat-mite, is just plain perfect.

Success has many fathers (and mothers), and no single creator is responsible for the wild, runaway success of Warner Brothers' most magnificent Batman.

If then-vice president of animation Jean MacCurdy hadn't seen the potential in combining artist Bruce Timm's perfect-in-their-simplicity designs with background artist Eric Radomski's noirish scenes, perhaps the lightning wouldn't've known where to strike. Yet strike it did, and they caught it in a bottle - each choice along the way seems to have been blessed by kind Fate.

Whether it was the design decision not to set the show in any one specific 20th century time period so as to avoid dating it, and thereby lending it a kind of universality, or the idea that the show should create and maintain a laserfine focus on character, rather than spectacle, to sustain its appeal for audiences, or any of a dozen other critical creative turning points - the Bat-Gods unfailingly smiled on the project.

Even through the inevitable changes wrought by different formats, the spirit of the show never flagged. Whether one prefers the original show, aired on the Fox network, or the WB version with its revised, streamlined designs - the vision and soul of the show have remained intact (even expanding and giving life to various spinoffs, from the Superman animated show to Batman Beyond to Justice League Unlimited).

A lot of the credit for the success of the animated Batman enterprise has to go to Bruce Timm, who realized early on that a cartoon Batman shouldn't be a carbon copy of a live-action movie Batman. Timm knew the strengths of animation, and tailored his characters to fit them, creating designs of such iconic power and fluidity that they rivaled their inspiration - the Dave and Max Fleischer Superman cartoons of the early 40s - for sheer storytelling virtuosity.

A big part of the shows' success certainly owes to Paul Dini, whose scripts for the show (among them the pivotal Mr. Freeze episode, "Heart of Ice," or the classic Harley Quinn tale, "Harley and Ivy") transcended their source material and added depth and dramatic power to Batman's ongoing mythology. Yet truly, Batman: the Animated Series was a collaborative effort that involved, over its run, many dozens of gifted contributors - to all of them, we owe a debt of gratitude for its success.

It's hard to count all the ways in which the animated series has affected the Bat legend. Some obvious contributions include whole characters, such as Harley Quinn and police officer Renee Montaya, neither of whom existed in the comics before they first appeared on the show. Others include modifications - such as the one wrought on Mr. Freeze, hardly a sympathetic character until the aforementioned "Heart of Ice" gave him pathos and dimension - or refinements, such as those applied to Clayface, who stole a page from Robert Patrick's T-1000 when he began morphing all over the place.

A subtler influence has been tonal - writer Devin Grayson, longtime scribe on the Bat-titles Gotham Knights and Nightwing, first took an interest in the Bat-characters while watching the animated series. Other Bat-writers, too, have been influenced by the show, resulting in a greater focus on the characters as people, rather than merely superheroes.

Indeed, the animated series has been such a living, breathing part of the Batman mythology over the last decade that its real influence and importance may not be fully calcuable at present. With any luck, that influence (through Justice League Unlimited and possibly other future projects) will continue for some time to come.
http://batman.ugo.com/television/batman_theanimatedseries/default.asp

Batman: the Animated Series
The highly successful series merged revolutionary animation and great storytelling. The series was so successful that a feature film Batman: Mask of the Phantasm was released during the run of the series and a direct to video feature Batman & Mr. Freeze: Subzero was also created.

http://www.tv.com/batman-the-animated-series/show/363/summary.html

Batman: The Animated Series, started in September 1992 and quickly found itself amongst critics as being one of the most exceptional and strikingly developed cartoon series to date.

Timm’s enthusiasm got him the job along with Alan Burnett who served as senior story editor and co-producer. What is more, Burnett made an incredible decision by hiring on Paul Dini who provided incredible writing and stories that only strengthened the show. The end result was that the series was so good that even the Fox network joined in running the show in prime time to attract and adult audience. The results were magnificent and it even went on to win multiple Emmys.

Batman: Mask of the Phantasm, a feature film based on the cartoon series, was shown in theaters in 1993, but didn't really find its audience until it was released on video as originally intended.
BATMAN : MOP reviews

A strange phenomenon in the Batman world at this point was that while the Batman cartoons of the day were growing surprisingly more serious, two upcoming feature films were growing more cartoonish.
http://www.batmanytb.com/history/history/center3.php

It is widely regarded by fans as the most iconic modern . It is widely regarded by fans as the most iconic modern representation of the Batman character and mythology, and also as the most faithful animated series based on a comic book.

The Emmy Award-winning series quickly received wide acclaim for its distinctive animation and mature writing, and it instantly became a hit. Fans of a wide age range praised the show's sophisticated, cinematic tone and psychological stories.

The most famous of the series' innovations is the Joker's hapless assistant, Harley Quinn, who became so popular that DC later added her to the Batman mainstream comics.

This series became a cornerstone of the Warner Brothers' animation department, which became one of the top' animation department, which became one of the top producers of television animation and sparked a large franchise of similar TV adaptations of DC Comics characters.


Batman: Mask of the Phantasm
The movie was extremely well received by fans of Batman: The Animated Series, and earned a positive review from almost every critic. For instance, film critics Siskel & Ebert, while regretting that they originally ignored the film in its initial release, gave the film a two-thumbs up, the only Batman film to be given such praise until Batman Begins. Rotten Tomatoes lists it as having 13 positive reviews out of 13 posted, thus earning a 100% rating. It has since become a cult classic.

The dark nature of the film has also been respected by animation fans, in particular the film noir-esque storyline and frame structure.

In tone and theme, this is one of the most authentic Batman films ever. It has an authentic noir structure involving death, love, betrayal and a bitter ending:Batman :Mask of the Phantasm

BTAS series had a profound influence on the superhero animated genre in that it set a higher standard of writing and animation quality.

B:TAS was one of the first truly "serious" American on-going animated series in some time. Prior to that, most animated fare had been lighthearted was one of the first truly "serious" American on-going animated series in some time. Prior to that, most animated fare had been lighthearted and bright, even if it was action oriented. B:TAS brought a darkness and seriousness to animation that was almost unheard of at the time, and was more akin to an animated drama than a "cartoon", per se. The storylines dealt with more mature themes, there was no slapstick, although some episodes were touched with sophisticated humor, and the soundtrack itself was more akin to a film soundtrack (owing in part, no doubt, to the desire to make it have a similar feel to the Danny Elfman score of the two Burton films).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Batman:_The_Animated_Series

Batman: The Animated Series changed the Batman Universe forever. new technique in animation using black backgrounds that would eventually be dubbed "Dark Deco." Dark Deco gave every scene within Gotham an extraordinary look, redefining the image of the city. The series also revamped the classic characters, casting a unique perspective on their origins and personalities. The series included all the popular characters and even created some new ones. The most significant change was the transformation of the Dick Grayson/Robin character in the "new" 90's costume, resulting in a hipper more adult representation which the character has never seen. The Batman character continued to embody the dark image fans have come to love while maintaining the heroic qualities identified with the character.


http://www.worldsfinestonline.com/WF/batman/btas/

Now, this is what Batman is all about ! The BTAS team obviously wanted to make a classic with that movie, and they succeeded. Every important Batman theme is there : the 1940 mood, the gangster atmosphere, the gigantic town, the corruption, and vengeance as a main subject. A lot of theme found in such great stories as The Dark Knight Returns, such as the "anti-bat" campaign, or the cops trying to get the Batman at any cost, were also there, in a perfect consistency all along the movie. It's dark, it's strong, it's what BTAS have accustomed us to.

Fans of "Batman: The Animated Series" should love "Batman: Mask of the Phantasm." Unlike director Tim Burton's live-action "Batman" films, this animated feature actually puts the emphasis on the Dark Knight rather than the still-colorful villains. It's kind of a kitchen-sink "Batman" tale - his past, present and future are all mixed into a brew full of angst and action. This movie has a lot of factors which should make it totally enjoyable to fans. We got classic action, as well as a new villains who looks to be a complete bad-ass, which is pretty. It's nice to see a villain who doesn't pull his punches for a change.

It's interesting to note that Mark Hamill - who as Luke Skywalker in the "Star Wars" trilogy was upstaged by Han Solo and aliens - does the voice of the Joker (as on the series) but still can't steal the show from Batman. No one can. Kevin Conroy just has the perfect voice for Batamn. He is able to change his voice between Bruce and Batman personas, and that really emphasis the change of the characters. Of course, it also brings up the question of who really is the mask and who is the alter-ego. He's even able to make his voice a bit higher in the flashbacks scenes, which is barely noticeable, although a nice effect.
The best things about "Batman: Mask of the Phantasm" are the slim but sure slices of sophisticated dialogue (as seen, or rather, heard, on TV!) and the very lifelike chemistry between Conroy's Bruce and Delany's Andrea. It's odd how the live-action Bruce Wayne's chemistry is as cold as ice, but animated, it seems pretty damn real! Conroy deliver a great job on their roles, and it shows.

http://www.worldsfinestonline.com/WF/batman/btas/episodes/motp/

And this just only the tip of the Iceberg (I have many other links for BTAS)

The point I'm trying to make here is that (Some of the animated series that are Superhero related , have made a profound influence , some times even more than a Live Action movie or live action Tv series .)

 

[MJZ]

I'm staying out of this one because frankly I don't think it's worth arguing over, however, posting a bunch of editorial quotes from fansites is hardly "concrete proof..."

 

[triplet]

I'm staying out of this one because frankly I don't think it's worth arguing over, however, posting a bunch of editorial quotes from fansites is hardly "concrete proof..."

What MJZ said...

 

[Ultimate_Superman]

The GENERAL PUBLIC wouldn't know George Newbern, Kevin Conroy and Susan Eisenberg from a hole in the wall. Get out from behind your fanboy/comic book blinders and try to see these things from the perspective of people who...

• think comic books are for kids,
• don't know the difference between Marvel and DC,
• have no clue what the Crisis is (or was),
• wouldn't know Alex Ross from the guy at 3rd base on the NY Yankees,
• use the term "Kryptonite" like they would "Achilles Heel," but have no clue what either actually are,
• never heard of characters like Brainiac, Mxyzptlk, Martian Manhunter, Dr. Hamilton, Morgan Edge and even Lana Lang prior to seeing them on Smallville...

Look, I'm not saying comic books and superhero cartoons exist in a bubble and only fanboys appreciate them. On the contrary. I know they're popular. Hello?!!!!

But superhero cartoons on television just *aren't* that important to the GP when you compare them to other live action programming. If they were, they'd be all over prime time on major networks instead of shows like Grey's Anatomy. C'mon peeps! Think logically for a minute, will yas? We're talking about the *general public* here. These are people who think you need a passport to travel from Arizona to New Mexico, couldn't name a senator from their home state, or pick Australia out on a world map.

What are you talking about did I not just say guys in my high school and college that have nothing to do with comics watched the show and loved it. As blkSuperman said most of the guys I know loved TAS (Batman, Superman, and Justice League) Hell when I talk to people that have nothing to do with comics and say they are making a Justice League movie they say they hope it is like the cartoon. And people knew about Lana from the movies Pat way before SV hell I remember when I was watching the pilot in my dorm room and my roommate asked if I was watching Superman because of Martha Kent and he remembers her as Lana Lang. And as far as people never hearing of Brainiac and so forth that is bull *****. People knew about them long before SV the only one I may give is Morgan Edge and thats all because like on SV he was hardly used in L&C as well. I am not going to break down your list though because it is pointless saying people don't know about Kryptonite (there is a little thing called Superman: The Movie starring an actor named Christopher Reeve; it dealt heavily with Kryptonite and I am pretty sure the *general public* remembers it) As I said before SV is a good show don't get me wrong but it did not bring the general pubic interest back to Superman. Lois and Clark and Superman :TAS did. I will admit SV may have brought in more of a womans crowd but no one really cares about the actor or the voice behind the man now so that argument is out the window or you would have seen the *General Public* in an up roar about the casting for Superman Returns instead of just Smallville fans. I am not trying to take anything from SV but the general public was aware of Superman before then. Also when you say the cartoons are not important to the general public most people today outside of the comics and forum compare what type of Superman they want to see to the cartoon not SV. Just like most people compare the Justice League and Batman they would like to see to the Cartoon.

 

[AssMan]

This thread should be amusing to watch today

 

[Migu-EL]

Cartoons= little kids and fanboys

Live Action= Adults(General Public)t:


I know I'm just throwing fuel on the fire.

 

[AgentPat]

You provide concrete proof that comic animated series are more influential to the general public than live action, I'm all ears...

Indeed, and I'm still waiting for it.

Here's a nice selection of comments made by fans for fans detailing how wonderful and true-to-character the animated series of Batman has been. I've excerpted the parts I believe were the essence of the points Kal wanted to emphasize. The influence these shows have had WITHIN the genre is amazing:

No doubt about it, BATMAN: THE ANIMATED series is the best animated Batman series to date. And next to the live-action BATMAN BEGINS, the finest adaptation of the Batman comic books.

http://www.batman-on-film.com/histor...ated_btas.html

It is almost a damn shame that animated films -- aimed at kids -- were of better quality than the live-action films during that era. And that is meant as a compliment to the creative teams behind those animated pictures.

http://www.batman-on-film.com/review_jett_phantasm.html

A big part of the shows' success certainly owes to Paul Dini, whose scripts for the show (among them the pivotal Mr. Freeze episode, "Heart of Ice," or the classic Harley Quinn tale, "Harley and Ivy") transcended their source material and added depth and dramatic power to Batman's ongoing mythology.

Indeed, the animated series has been such a living, breathing part of the Batman mythology over the last decade that its real influence and importance may not be fully calculable at present. With any luck, that influence (through Justice League Unlimited and possibly other future projects) will continue for some time to come.

http://batman.ugo.com/television/bat...es/default.asp

Batman: the Animated Series... was so successful that a feature film Batman: Mask of the Phantasm was released during the run of the series and a direct to video feature Batman & Mr. Freeze: Subzero was also created.

http://www.tv.com/batman-the-animate...3/summary.html

...the series was so good that even the Fox network joined in running the show in prime time to attract and adult audience. The results were magnificent and it even went on to win multiple Emmys.

A strange phenomenon in the Batman world at this point was that while the Batman cartoons of the day were growing surprisingly more serious, two upcoming feature films were growing more cartoonish.

http://www.batmanytb.com/history/history/center3.php

It is widely regarded by fans as the most iconic modern representation of the Batman character and mythology, and also as the most faithful animated series based on a comic book.

B:TAS was one of the first truly "serious" American on-going animated series in some time. Prior to that, most animated fare had been lighthearted was one of the first truly "serious" American on-going animated series in some time. Prior to that, most animated fare had been lighthearted and bright, even if it was action oriented. B:TAS brought a darkness and seriousness to animation that was almost unheard of at the time, and was more akin to an animated drama than a "cartoon", per se. The storylines dealt with more mature themes, there was no slapstick, although some episodes were touched with sophisticated humor, and the soundtrack itself was more akin to a film soundtrack (owing in part, no doubt, to the desire to make it have a similar feel to the Danny Elfman score of the two Burton films).

Batman: Mask of the Phantasm
The movie was extremely well received by fans of Batman: The Animated Series, and earned a positive review from almost every critic. For instance, film critics Siskel & Ebert, while regretting that they originally ignored the film in its initial release, gave the film a two-thumbs up, the only Batman film to be given such praise until Batman Begins. Rotten Tomatoes lists it as having 13 positive reviews out of 13 posted, thus earning a 100% rating. It has since become a cult classic.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Batman%...nimated_Series

Batman: The Animated Series changed the Batman Universe forever... The Batman character continued to embody the dark image fans have come to love while maintaining the heroic qualities identified with the character.

http://www.worldsfinestonline.com/WF/batman/btas/

Now, this is what Batman is all about!

Fans of "Batman: The Animated Series" should love "Batman: Mask of the Phantasm." Unlike director Tim Burton's live-action "Batman" films, this animated feature actually puts the emphasis on the Dark Knight rather than the still-colorful villains.

http://www.worldsfinestonline.com/WF...episodes/motp/

Bravo!

This however, doth not a case make for how animated shows impact the GENERAL AUDIENCE. Nowhere in those articles (with the exception of the bolded RED - which supports the points I've been trying to make) does it say anything about the demographics of mainstream audiences. No ratings figures. No distribution coverage. In point of fact, no information on how these shows reach Aunt Gertrude - not just her nieces and nephews.

HOWEVER! There ARE some key points there, which I bolded. The authors of these articles like to point out how the animated shows became the bases and inspiration for their live action counterparts. THAT is what makes the animated shows important. If cult interest and fanboy appeal in an animated show or comic book leads to live action shows and films, the respective characters and stories will reach a BROADER audience. Airing those shows on a major network during prime time helps start that process.

Take a deep breath folks. Step out of the fanboy mentality that loves to discuss heroes and villains, their origins, powers, and their appeal to FANS. Just for a minute? Can y'all do that with me for a sec?

Jul. 6, 2004
Getting serious about comic book adaptations
By BRIAN LOWRY

Since Burton's "Batman," many of the best comic-inspired productions have flown under the radar in TV animation, from "Batman: The Animated Series" to Cartoon Network's "Justice League," whose spinoff premieres later this month. Although ostensibly designed for the youth market, these programs -- crafted by producers with a genuine love for the source material -- were almost too good for kids, much like the WB's live-action "Smallville," which has breathed unexpected life into the tired Superman mythology.

http://www.variety.com/article/VR1117907405

Jan. 20, 2005
Smallville
The definitive WB
By ADDIE MORFOOT

...Oddly enough, many "Smallville" fans aren't all that aware of either the Christopher Reeve films or the George Reeves series (1952-57).

"We never got notes (from the network) saying, 'This is going to be boring because everybody already knows Clark Kent.' What we found is that most of the audience that watch the WB were not familiar with Superman at all," Gough recalls.

"We did a pilot test and in the middle there was a glitch in the tape and the boys had to tell the girls they were watching Superman. The girls had no idea."

http://www.variety.com/article/VR1117916655

Jul. 18, 2004
Hero worship
Film, TV talents jump at chance to write their favorites
By THOMAS MCLEAN

...Joe Quesada, editor in chief of Marvel Comics, says film and TV talent raise the quality of writing and bring their fans into the comics biz. "The more that happens, the more we'll see comics permeating everything and being looked at as a very sophisticated branch of the entertainment world."

...In the late 1980s, Jeph Loeb had credits such as "Teen Wolf," "Commando" and "Burglar" under his belt and was working on an unproduced "The Flash" feature at Warner Bros. when the then-president of DC Comics invited him to write a comic. Loeb ended up not on Superman or Batman, but on a revival of the 1950s series "Challengers of the Unknown."

"The people that were in comics didn't understand who I was or what I was doing," he says. "I didn't come up through the trenches, I didn't know any editors and the president of the company said 'Work with this guy.'"

Loeb went on to write several iconic superhero series, one of which inspired Al Gough and Miles Millar in the development of "Smallville." The producers hired Loeb as a writer and producer for the show's second season and Loeb's comicbook series "Superman/Batman" ranks second behind "Astonishing X-Men" in monthly sales.

...The proliferation of comicbook movies since the surprise success of Singer's "X-Men" has helped Hollywood bring its comicbook obsession into the open. Hollywood execs often want to talk comics first and more film and TV writers have comicbook projects on the way...

http://www.variety.com/article/VR1117907935

Jul. 12, 2005
Adapt and thrive
Spirit, character key in page-to-screen transition
By THOMAS MCLEAN

...Comics properties and the expectations for them come in two distinct classes. There are long-running iconic superheroes that are well known all over the world, such as Spider-Man, Batman, Superman, X-Men and the Fantastic Four, and lesser-known properties like "Constantine," "Hellboy," "Daredevil," "Sin City," "V for Vendetta" or "Ghost Rider" that are known only to comics fans. The former comes with extremely high expectations and intense media attention; the latter is more open to alteration and reinterpretation, and requires more in terms of promotion to introduce them to audiences.

...Marvel Studios chief Avi Arad says emphasizing character is the best way to approach Marvel's beloved and quirky heroes. "We learned beyond a shadow of a doubt that the scripts have to be about character development. People are really interested in seeing us get the powers, seeing us learn to use the powers, and that's where the fascination is."

Villains who go beyond the mustache-twirling world conquerors of old are as essential as the heroes, Arad says. "All our villains are connected to our heroes, one way or another. If Peter Parker doesn't care what happens to this villain, why would you care? So we need to play that formula and we are pretty diligent with that formula."

...Still, even lesser-known comic-based movies have an audience that guarantees a certain amount of attention, which helps studios' marketing efforts. "Regardless of any other factors, if something's based on a comicbook it's going to have some cutting through the clutter that it isn't otherwise going to have," says Scott Mitchell Rosenberg, prexy of Platinum Studios.

...DC Comics prexy Paul Levitz cites the match of the Superman mythology and weekly TV in "Smallville" as a successful pairing. "I'm not sure that it would be possible to do a primetime Superman television show that had the impact on the younger generation today that the George Reeves Superman show had on my generation," he says. "But 'Smallville's' having an astounding impact on its generation."

http://www.variety.com/article/VR1117925820

Jan. 25, 2006
In touch with their inner teen
Producing team knows what it takes to tap youth market
By KATHY TRACY

In turning one of the comic world's most venerable and long-lived superheroes into a teen icon, Mike Tollin and Brian Robbins say they used lessons learned back in their early days as partners producing Nickelodeon shows such as "All That," "Kenan & Kel" and "The Amanda Show."

"There's an innocence and honesty that's attendant in doing kids' programming," Tollin says. "It was a natural progression from doing shows for pre-teens to teenagers while still capturing a little bit of that awe, a little bit of that wonder looking at things for the first time."

...But, he adds, their success with teen audiences isn't so much about their ability to tap into any particular zeitgeist as it is their sense for narrative. "Good stories are good stories, whether teenage stories or adult stories," says Robbins. "It's just about telling stories that interest you, or something you can be passionate about."

Robbins credits "Smallville's" creative maturity to its solid foundation. "We based the show on Clark Kent being an archetypal hero and imbuing it with all these values set in mid-America. It wasn't going to be trendy, it wasn't going to be a faddish show and replace 'Buffy' in sensibilities. And I think that's responsible for some of its staying power -- building characters that had a real place to go."

http://www.variety.com/article/VR1117936816

Jan. 25, 2006
Super expectations
Skein satisfies devoted comicbook fan base
By THOMAS MCLEAN

There's one foe that all comicbook adaptations, bigscreen or small, have to face, one that is immensely powerful, supremely picky and hard to win over: the fans.

..."The sincere respect for the character and the underlying mythos really comes through," says Paul Levitz, president and publisher of DC Comics. "Anything that introduces new generations of people to our characters has to be good for us. There's a lot of people who love Clark Kent and Lex Luthor who didn't four or five years ago, and we think they'll be fans for generations to come the same way those who saw the George Reeves show way back when did."

The show's ability to reach a large audience has given "Smallville" a shot at becoming the longest-running live-action superhero comicbook series in history: It's about to surpass the 104 episodes of Reeves' "Adventures of Superman" skein and looks likely to top the 120 episodes of the 1960s "Batman" next season.

While some fans may still not like that the show deviates from the comicbooks, that group is relatively small, Levitz says. Still, the show has used more elements from the comics as it goes on, which Levitz says enriches the show for both comicbook fans and the general audience.

"It shows that this show is taking place in a rich universe," he says.

http://www.variety.com/article/VR1117936819

Jan. 25, 2006
Leaps tall ratings
Not even Kryptonite can slow show's momentum
By RICK KISSELL

Superman jinx? What Superman jinx?

After previous television incarnations of the Man of Steel lasted no more than four seasons, the WB's "Smallville" has surpassed them by not only surviving to a fifth season, but thriving in it.

Shifted to a tough Thursday night slot, the story of young Superman has defied conventional TV wisdom by having its best season to date in key ratings categories.

...Gough and Millar were then off and running, creating their own "Smallville" mythology while trying to stay true to Superman characters in the DC Comics.

"Batman had always been considered cool and Superman kind of cheesy, so we wanted to ground Superman in reality," Gough says.

They literally grounded him, too, setting up a "no tights/no flights" rule at the outset to make a young Clark Kent more relatable to auds.

"Superman's always been malleable to the times, from the '50s to the '90s when he was a yuppie, so we went the angst-ridden teen route," Gough says. "He's a contemporary teen that just happens to be from a different planet."

...Show has been successful for ABC Family in syndication and is doing very well overseas, where it has become Warner Bros. Intl. Television's highest-rated and most well-received series since "ER."

..."Advertisers love 'Smallville,' and it's been wildly successful for our network in terms of revenue," says Janollari, adding that it has helped expand the WB's audience by bringing in young males.

"For as long as it's around, its popularity can help us rebuild and find that next wave of hits."

http://www.variety.com/article/VR1117936825

Jan. 25, 2006
Cleared for takeoff
Series flourishes where other comic heroes failed
By BRIAN LOWRY

Still, fealty to the spirit of the comics alone would hardly explain "Smallville's" resilience, surviving a handful of time-period shifts, including the always dicey proposition of being relocated in its fifth season, when viewer loyalty is easily shaken. Part of the show's durability stems from its playing on multiple levels to different constituencies. At various moments, "Smallville" is an action hour, sci-fi romp, teen soap, family drama and rethinking of comicbook mythology -- often all within the same episode. Small wonder that when the program was honored by the Museum of TV & Radio, the audience included children, teenage girls swooning over Welling and middle-aged men, asking about Clark's wardrobe and where the TV show exists vis-a-vis the films.

http://www.variety.com/article/VR1117936818

Jan. 25, 2006
WB synergy in full force
Welling, quality of show aids 'Smallville's' success
By MICHAEL SCHNEIDER

...The hit WB series, experiencing a creative and rating renaissance in its fifth season, represents one of those diamonds in the rough for conglom Time Warner: A show that reaches across the company as a perfect example of synergy.

Warner Bros.' DC Comics owns the rights to the Superman character; Warner Bros. TV produces "Smallville," a teenage take on the titan in tights; the WB airs the show (seen via affils on Time Warner cable systems in many parts of the country); Warner Bros.' distribution units sell the show internationally and into domestic syndication; Warner Home Video releases the "Smallville" DVD; the cycle starts again.

The synergy once even hit Warner Music, which released a "Smallville" CD back when it was still owned by Time Warner.

"The ideal property to exploit for our studio is a franchise property like 'Smallville,' " says Warner Bros. TV Group topper Bruce Rosenblum. "This takes advantage of our DC Comics division, our distribution strength via the WB, our top-supplier studio Warner Bros. TV and our homevideo operations, all working in concert together."

Now, the success of "Smallville" has even helped bring a theatrical movie to fruition. Bryan Singer is directing "Superman Returns," starring Brandon Routh as the latest Clark Kent.

It's easy to underestimate how "Smallville" helped jumpstart an entire franchise. But prior to Tom Welling taking over as Clark Kent, the Superman character had been limping along for several years.

The last major Superman TV show, "Lois & Clark," suffered dismal ratings toward the end of its run. And Superman hadn't had a movie presence in years.

The WB first got an inkling that Superman was still cool in 1997, when the net started airing an animated series (with Tim Daly voicing the main character) starring the Man of Steel -- from Warner Bros. Animation, of course. Still, there was no guarantee that "Smallville" would work, no matter how much corporate synergy there was.

"Much like the magic of finding the right cast for 'Friends' or 'ER,' these very successful franchises come along only every so often," Rosenblum says. "A network timeslot alone doesn't guarantee success. And creative auspices alone don't guarantee success."

But in this case, the stars did align. WB Entertainment president David Janollari says several factors led to the show's success, including Welling, and the "fresh take on Superman's teenage years and the consistent quality of the show." And, of course, "the cohesive way divisions like DC, Warner Bros. TV, the WB and the producers have worked closely together to produce a hundred different episodes that remain true to the character's inherent tone and mythology," he says.

http://www.variety.com/article/VR1117936821

 

[\S/JcDc\S/]

A point for L&C. At it's highest nielsen rating it garnered 20.8 million viewers for the beginning of the 3rd season.

In seasons 3-4 it definitely declined (mostly due to creative people such as the producer Deborah Levine leaving) but overall the height of L&C's popularity has never been matched by SV.

It truly brought back Superman into the media after a long asbence from Christopher Reeve's films. It also created a TON of new fans.

 

[\S/JcDc\S/]

There is a good read here.

http://pcasacas.org/SPC/spcissues/21.1/robinson.htm

 

[user123456789]

A point for L&C. At it's highest nielsen rating it garnered 20.8 million viewers for the beginning of the 3rd season.

In seasons 3-4 it definitely declined (mostly due to creative people such as the producer Deborah Levine leaving) but overall the height of L&C's popularity has never been matched by SV.

It truly brought back Superman into the media after a long asbence from Christopher Reeve's films. It also created a TON of new fans.

damn thats a lot of viewers..

 

[Brainiac 8]

I'm staying out of this one because frankly I don't think it's worth arguing over, however, posting a bunch of editorial quotes from fansites is hardly "concrete proof..."

I'm with you MJZ. Please can we move on...some like the cartoons, some don't.

I loved the animated series, but those quotes don't reflect the opinions of the general audience. The thing is cartoons, unless they are specifically made for adults, have not been embraced by the General audience.

It's just the nature of the beast.

 

[triplet]

damn thats a lot of viewers..

Damn. That's a totally different time.

Nothing gets 20 million viewers anymore.

I'm with you MJZ. Please can we move on...some like the cartoons, some don't.

I loved the animated series, but those quotes don't reflect the opinions of the general audience. The thing is cartoons, unless they are specifically made for adults, have not been embraced by the General audience.

It's just the nature of the beast.

True...

Hey... anyone seen Kaboom?

I owe him a hair ruffle...

 

[Migu-EL]

Also L & C was on a more popular network.

 

[SamuraiSon6]

a funny parallel to a Van Damme movie called "Cyborg"t:

just stumbled across this and felt like i should post it...

 

[dc4ever]

My artwork!!

 

[dc4ever]

another one for JL!

 

[The Caped Knight]

Check out The DC series 2 SMALLVILLE action figures set

 

[The Caped Knight]

Justice - Minimate Style

http://lorduberham.deviantart.com/art/Justice-Minimate-Style-63593594

 

[Batman the 6th]

You could've put the Wonder Woman from the seventies pic in there for the JLU. Too bad they didn't look like actual pictures.

 

[Sawyer]

I wants a Justice League spinoff.

 

[BH/HHH]

I loved this episode was fantastic, definitely the best episode of smallville I have ever watched. Green Arrow is the coolest guest star Smallville as ever had and alot of credit must go to Justin Hartley who seems like he was born to play Oliver Queen.

I'd like to see a 6 part mini-series where the Justice League and Clark team up again, would be cool to see.