-_- America engages in double tapping.

The Question said:
Bottom line is: If you think it's okay to kill foreign civilians but that it's not okay when other people kill our civilians, then you're not coming from a place of morals or ethics, you're coming from a place of nationalism and a belief that American lives have more value than non-American loves. That, I think, is a disgusting and harmful worldview.
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They started the conflict and they choose to target civilians. I see no reason why we should get our people killed to spare theirs in a war they started.
 
but the idea that they started the war is from a western pov. as far as they are concerned, we started the war.
 
Kelly said:
If the choice is sending in drones, or sending in our troops.......I'm for choosing drones. I'm tired of losing my students in these damn wars.
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I like drones, I just don't like drones killing civilians.

Like The Question says if you don't care about the ethics of killing civlians in the Middle East, then it's appropriate for us to be casualties of this war in our own homes. Then 9-11 means nothing. It was just a military skirmish, part of a larger war, but it does matter. Because those kids in the Middle East didn't wake up that morning volunteering for a war and volunteering to die, just like the people in the towers. We've killed 11 million since 2000, 11 million unarmed women and children, directly as a result of us. So yeah, forgive me if that pisses me off just a tad.
 
we tried to dictate how they should act and govern their people, despite not having a clue about their culture. honestly, we should have just stayed the hell away from the middle east. but i guess there was too much $$$ involved.

you could also say it all goes back to the crusades. which are effectively, still going. christianity vs islam. it's never ended.
 
superion said:
Oh and what did we do to start the war?
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Are you not at all familiar with US operations/interference in the Middle East for the past few decades?

It's all a matter of public record. Foreign interventions are typically a poor idea unless they're aid efforts.
 
superion said:
They started the conflict and they choose to target civilians. I see no reason why we should get our people killed to spare theirs in a war they started.
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The civilians over there didn't start the war. They had no say in the matter. They didn't ask for this. Why should they be punished, be killed, for something someone else did?

Does the fact that our enemy targeted American civilians give us the right to use tactics that kill foreign civilians in greater numbers?

Why do their lives have less value than American lives?
 
Kelly said:
If the choice is sending in drones, or sending in our troops.......I'm for choosing drones. I'm tired of losing my students in these damn wars.
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What about the people over there who are tired of losing their children and their students, who die because of the drones' lessened ability to distinguish between civilians and enemy targets?
 
Well, actually.....I am one that says, totally pull out of the Middle East. So, no I don't particularly like Drones, I don't even like giving the choice of using Drones or our military men and women. Those are two separate things for me.

I for one, think we should have sent special forces in with only air support into Afghanistan and blown the mountains away until we had Bin Laden, killed him in a manner that lets people know we will not allow something like 9-11 to happen and go unpunished, and then pulled out to let them kill themselves through their own tribal warfare that they seem to enjoy so much in Afghanistan.

I hate how women are treated there and other areas of the world, but our history shows that in many of those areas we go in, we see change, we applaud, we leave....and they go back exactly to what they were before.

I'm just tired of repeating that history....
 
Yeah Osama and Saddam are dead. I just don't care to see more people get killed.
 
Kelly said:
Well, actually.....I am one that says, totally pull out of the Middle East. So, no I don't particularly like Drones, I don't even like giving the choice of using Drones or our military men and women. Those are two separate things for me.

I for one, think we should have sent special forces in with only air support into Afghanistan and blown the mountains away until we had Bin Laden, killed him in a manner that lets people know we will not allow something like 9-11 to happen and go unpunished, and then pulled out to let them kill themselves through their own tribal warfare that they seem to enjoy so much in Afghanistan.

I hate how women are treated there and other areas of the world, but our history shows that in many of those areas we go in, we see change, we applaud, we leave....and they go back exactly to what they were before.

I'm just tired of repeating that history....
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The world still runs on gas, so I don't see that happenning.
 
Optimus_Prime_ said:
Oh no, we've never done anything bad to the Middle East...

...Just ask this guy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohammed_Mosaddeq
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The US put the Shah in power. That is the only instance where the US was involved in installing a government in the mid east until the invasion of Iraq. What does that have to do with Al Qaeda and the Taliban who are primarily made up of Arabs, Afghans, and Pakistanis.
 
Midnyte_Sun said:
The world still runs on gas, so I don't see that happenning.
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Well, heres the thing as far as that is concerned, Iran is a perfect example of it......they could close off the Strait of Hormuz and totally shut down the movement of oil via ships in that region. They won't because it would hurt their bottom line. So as far as the OPEC countries, they aren't going to do anything stupid to hurt that bottom line. They just need us to buy it....Afghanistan is not one of those countries....we need to pull out.

If we pulled out of Bahrain, for example, we would still be buying oil.

NOW, there is the other side. Our amount of oil from that part of the world has been decreasing.....we have plenty here, we could get more from Alberta, Canada and they are more than willing to hop right in there for that....there is much more oil off the coasts that have not been tapped. It would be years, I know to set those up, except for the Canada connection, but we should be moving that direction.
 
superion said:
The US put the Shah in power. That is the only instance where the US was involved in installing a government in the mid east until the invasion of Iraq. What does that have to do with Al Qaeda and the Taliban who are primarily made up of Arabs, Afghans, and Pakistanis.
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He was very secular and basically wanted his citizens to prosper from the oil in the region, meaning we'd have to pay more, so we diposed him, for oil.

So yeah, it was highly unethical, and we upset a democracy on it's way to self governance for our petty desires.

They're still pretty sore about that.
 
Kelly said:
Well, heres the thing as far as that is concerned, Iran is a perfect example of it......they could close off the Strait of Hormuz and totally shut down the movement of oil via ships in that region. They won't because it would hurt their bottom line. So as far as the OPEC countries, they aren't going to do anything stupid to hurt that bottom line. They just need us to buy it....Afghanistan is not one of those countries....we need to pull out.
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They don't need to close the straight of Hormuz, they just need to raise the threat level and gas prices will begin to rocket. That type of major US pull out of the Middle East will cause a vacuum that Russia, China, and Iran will fill. The status quo will change completely. A strong Iran, that has nuclear energy to support it's growing cities, will directly influence the politics of Iraq and Afghanistan..the latter of which they supply electricity, education, and infrastructure. Afghanistan will remain fractured and lawless, with Pakistan and Iran tugging on both sides for favor. Bahrain and Saudi Arabia will both have huge turmoil on their hands as Iran will try to topple their governments.

A strong anti-US Iran will also put more pressure on the trigger happy, now isolated, Israelis who will retaliate in some fashion to Iranian aggression. If nukes are on the table, then expect WW III to happen in this region.
 
superion said:
The US put the Shah in power. That is the only instance where the US was involved in installing a government in the mid east until the invasion of Iraq. What does that have to do with Al Qaeda and the Taliban who are primarily made up of Arabs, Afghans, and Pakistanis.
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Well the terrorists attack any country they consider part of "the West" or which has meddled in the Middle East in the past. There have been numerous terrorist attacks in Britain and other countries as well, the subway bombings in London come to mind. We're not their only target.

The idiotic war in Iraq then only increased the amount of people joining Al Qaeda, since it was completely and utterly unjustifiable within the context of U.S. foreign policy (it was especially ironic since most of the terrorists on 9/11 were Saudi Arabians, but you'd never see us invading Saudi Arabia).
 
The Question said:
What about the people over there who are tired of losing their children and their students, who die because of the drones' lessened ability to distinguish between civilians and enemy targets?
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I'm with Kelly on this. Our old tactics were just as civilian unfriendly as drones. Our carpet bombing of Iraq provided a lot of civilian casualties. Wars almost always will. If they can get the kinks out, I'd much rather send in a machine to bomb an enemy complex rather than put boots on the ground endangering their lives. That said, I'd rather we just pull out, and quit nation building, and policing the Middle East. This double tap tactic is disgusting, and shouldn't be allowed to continue.
 
Fading said:
I'm with Kelly on this. Our old tactics were just as civilian unfriendly as drones. Our carpet bombing of Iraq provided a lot of civilian casualties. Wars almost always will. If they can get the kinks out, I'd much rather send in a machine to bomb an enemy complex rather than put boots on the ground endangering their lives. That said, I'd rather we just pull out, and quit nation building, and policing the Middle East. This double tap tactic is disgusting, and shouldn't be allowed to continue.
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Well put, I agree with all of this.
 
Siby said:
That is crazy! Bombing funerals and first responders?

I've always said that President Obama is by far more merciless, deceptive, and brutal than President GW Bush ever was.

I would just like to know what the US would do if another country carried out air strikes and other military actions in our country. What would they call the aggressors? Terrorists?
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It's not like it's a surprise. Our government has been doing things similiar to this for years. And this isn't even the worst thing Obama has signed off on.
 
Destructus86 said:
It's not like it's a surprise. Our government has been doing things similiar to this for years. And this isn't even the worst thing Obama has signed off on.
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I know right and nobody in the media says anything about it.
 
You know what gets me the most? And it's not even the fact that we are murdering people (come on media...let's call it for what it is..it's not killing. it's MURDER) It's the fact that the news spent an entire week covering the horrors of the recent school shooting in our country...and that's only a TASTE of what other people experience, like with this double tap. The constant fear we have given people wondering if they will be the next to die in another murder spree bombing.

If you look at some of the videos out there (try youtube) people in these cities are actually sick due to constant, unending stress because of the bombings. Imagine if something like this happened in our country. You would be afraid all the time...you would be afraid to even leave your house for fear you would die. That's something they are living under right now...and we make a big deal about ONE shooting? Try living somewhere else where we cause more death than any mad gunmen can do.
 
The Question said:
Bottom line is: If you think it's okay to kill foreign civilians but that it's not okay when other people kill our civilians, then you're not coming from a place of morals or ethics, you're coming from a place of nationalism and a belief that American lives have more value than non-American loves. That, I think, is a disgusting and harmful worldview.
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Let's stop calling it killing...that's just a way we water it down and justify it. We need to call it what it is....we're murderers.
 
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