"A Fresh Start" New Marvel Relaunch for 2018

[Sithborg]

At least it's male Thor, what appears to be Stark as Iron Man, Rogers as Cap, etc. Hopefully they've listened to fans' discontent with the SJW idiocy littering the company. Is this due to Bendis leaving? Hopefully he won't blight DC the way he did Marvel.

And yet, Ms. Marvel, Miles Morales, and Robbie Reyes are still there.

 

[Sawyer]

Those dern sjws always comin' ta get mah comics!!!1!

 

[Gamma Goliath]

I liked that fact that marvel wanted to spread more diverse characters, I just didn't like the way they did it exactly.

 

[Sithborg]

Those dern sjws always comin' ta get mah comics!!!1!

The outrage over Superman Smashes the Klan is going to be hilarious.

 

[Neptune]

I'm glad they're relaunching. They pretty much have to if they want to be a leading comic publisher again because their sales have been horrible the last few years. Replacing classic characters was a stupid move from the very beginning. If they want more diverse characters, they should just create original ones, not second rate knock offs. And they way a lot of Marvel artists, writers etc. treated fans who disapproved of this was disgusting. But im cautiously optimistic about the relaunch.

 

[Motown Marvel]

At least it's male Thor, what appears to be Stark as Iron Man, Rogers as Cap, etc. Hopefully they've listened to fans' discontent with the SJW idiocy littering the company. Is this due to Bendis leaving? Hopefully he won't blight DC the way he did Marvel.

Any moron who believed Odison wouldn't return as Thor, Stark as Iron Man, or Rogers as Cap has clearly never read a comic book. Anyone who got pissed at a temporary lapse in the mantle was just using it as a weak excuse to justify their racist/misogynist sentiments.

 

[Sithborg]

At least Aaron gets to complete his story. It has been a hell of a run.

 

[Mad Ones]

Any moron who believed Odison wouldn't return as Thor, Stark as Iron Man, or Rogers as Cap has clearly never read a comic book. Anyone who got pissed at a temporary lapse in the mantle was just using it as a weak excuse to justify their racist/misogynist sentiments.

Exactly. This wasn't the first time that the major mantles changed a bit and it won't be the last (and it will always default back to something pretty similar to the 1960s status quo). I wonder why it was so controversial this time hmmm.

At least Aaron gets to complete his story. It has been a hell of a run.

Aaron's run has been stunning.

 

[JewishHobbit]

Any moron who believed Odison wouldn't return as Thor, Stark as Iron Man, or Rogers as Cap has clearly never read a comic book. Anyone who got pissed at a temporary lapse in the mantle was just using it as a weak excuse to justify their racist/misogynist sentiments.

Exactly. This wasn't the first time that the major mantles changed a bit and it won't be the last (and it will always default back to something pretty similar to the 1960s status quo). I wonder why it was so controversial this time hmmm.

I think that's making assumptions and assuming the worst in people. I think the bigger issue was how much of it was done at one time. Anytime a spearheading character was replaced in the past, it was typically not done at the same time as other spearheading characters. To do so many of them at once (while also removing other major characters like Wolverine, Cyclops, Xavier, etc.) was jarring. And being that so many, if not all, of the replacement characters were women or minorities... it definitely rang as not an attempt to drive storytelling but a cry of SJWism. The creators shout SJWism about those characters and replacements hasn't helped.

I don't know anybody who doesn't want women or minorities in their comics or even featured in their comics. I think most who have criticized Marvel of late over the topic simply doesn't want those women or minorities to outright replace the characters they've loved for years or decades. I'm not a big Avengers fan so I'm not really attached to the Big 3 enough to have much of an opinion on their replacements specifically, but I completely get the frustrated mindset those fans might have.

I liked that fact that marvel wanted to spread more diverse characters, I just didn't like the way they did it exactly.

I can agree with that. From what I read and understand, it feels more like pushing diversity for diversity sake all at once and not with the intent of building these characters to stand on their own two feet in stories outside of their sex or ethnicity. And if you push them at the cost of other beloved characters, I can see how that could ruin them before they have the chance to take off.

 

[JewishHobbit]

The outrage over Superman Smashes the Klan is going to be hilarious.

Why would that be? You do realize that the right are just as against the Klan as the left. The idea of them not being against the Klan is a rather silly construct of the left.

 

[Sithborg]

There are two separate issues, that tend to be intertwined when talking about these characters. It tends to be difficult to separate the two. Certain language used, does tend to lead what side a person is on, though.

Why would that be? You do realize that the right are just as against the Klan as the left. The idea of them not being against the Klan is a rather silly construct of the left.

These are the same people who were upset about the Empire being the bad guy in Rogue One. Do not underestimate their idiocy. Let alone, the anger over the politics in the Zoom and Ink books will likely result in spillover.

 

[Motown Marvel]

I think that's making assumptions and assuming the worst in people. I think the bigger issue was how much of it was done at one time. Anytime a spearheading character was replaced in the past, it was typically not done at the same time as other spearheading characters. To do so many of them at once (while also removing other major characters like Wolverine, Cyclops, Xavier, etc.) was jarring. And being that so many, if not all, of the replacement characters were women or minorities... it definitely rang as not an attempt to drive storytelling but a cry of SJWism. The creators shout SJWism about those characters and replacements hasn't helped.

I don't know anybody who doesn't want women or minorities in their comics or even featured in their comics. I think most who have criticized Marvel of late over the topic simply doesn't want those women or minorities to outright replace the characters they've loved for years or decades. I'm not a big Avengers fan so I'm not really attached to the Big 3 enough to have much of an opinion on their replacements specifically, but I completely get the frustrated mindset those fans might have.

Except the argument was rarely, "Oh man, I really miss Tony Stark as Iron Man, I can't wait for him to come back because obviously he's going to come back." It was more often, "Stupid snowflake SJW agendas ruining my comics and causing the destruction of Marvel by trying to cram diversity down our throats." If someone refuses to recognize these shifts in a mantle were temporary, if they refuse to recognize there are a dozen far more pressing issues eroding comic sales, and refuse to be pro-diversity in media, then yeah, I'm gonna go out on a limb and say those sentiments are coming from a place of discrimination. And even if those people are a minority, they have been a very vocal minority to the point where they have shaped a narrative in the mainstream of comic culture which casts the issue of diversity as a negative and politically motivated agenda. That is a dangerous thing which needs to be called out, confronted, and cut off.

 

[Jh7058622]

I can see both sides to this I think Marvel made a concerted effort to be political with many decisions regarding their universe lately but that doesn't change the fact that some do come across as bigoted buffoons rather than concerned fans.

 

[JewishHobbit]

These are the same people who were upset about the Empire being the bad guy in Rogue One. Do not underestimate their idiocy. Let alone, the anger over the politics in the Zoom and Ink books will likely result in spillover.

Hah! This is the first I'm hearing that complaint. And being that I lean right and try to follow politics, I'd assume those sorts are in the vast minority of right-leaning Americans.

Except the argument was rarely, "Oh man, I really miss Tony Stark as Iron Man, I can't wait for him to come back because obviously he's going to come back." It was more often, "Stupid snowflake SJW agendas ruining my comics and causing the destruction of Marvel by trying to cram diversity down our throats." If someone refuses to recognize these shifts in a mantle were temporary, if they refuse to recognize there are a dozen far more pressing issues eroding comic sales, and refuse to be pro-diversity in media, then yeah, I'm gonna go out on a limb and say those sentiments are coming from a place of discrimination. And even if those people are a minority, they have been a very vocal minority to the point where they have shaped a narrative in the mainstream of comic culture which casts the issue of diversity as a negative and politically motivated agenda. That is a dangerous thing which needs to be called out, confronted, and cut off.

If the complaints are ONLY against the idea of diverse characters being in comics, then I agree with you. But I can't say I've seen much of that. I'm sure they're out there and are loud (as all extremists are... left or right), but I think the bigger likelihood is that those who DO criticize because of their frustrations at their characters being replaced (even if temporarily) are lumped in and assumed racist/bigoted even if they aren't. I mean... it's kinda been the liberal M.O. over the past year and a half to assume and shout "isms" at people they disagree with.

I can't think of any specific examples, but there is also the possibility that some people are shouting against diversity as a bi-product of frustration over liberal politics being preached at them in comics. Most are all for diversity... but they don't want their political or religious views being written as the antagonist of those diverse characters without accurately depicting their side. I forget the details, but an issue of Champions kinda did that, framing Trump and Trump supporters as racists or something of that nature (I forget the details of that issue... the one with Gwen Pool).

I can see both sides to this I think Marvel made a concerted effort to be political with many decisions regarding their universe lately but that doesn't change the fact that some do come across as bigoted buffoons rather than concerned fans.

I agree. Unfortunately, political topics aren't known for their calm and reasonable exchange.

 

[Havok83]

Madrox is getting A Fresh Start

 

[JewishHobbit]

Jamie Madrox... the easiest character to bring back the dead... ever... over and over and over again.

 

[Motown Marvel]

If the complaints are ONLY against the idea of diverse characters being in comics, then I agree with you. But I can't say I've seen much of that. I'm sure they're out there and are loud (as all extremists are... left or right), but I think the bigger likelihood is that those who DO criticize because of their frustrations at their characters being replaced (even if temporarily) are lumped in and assumed racist/bigoted even if they aren't. I mean... it's kinda been the liberal M.O. over the past year and a half to assume and shout "isms" at people they disagree with.

I can't think of any specific examples, but there is also the possibility that some people are shouting against diversity as a bi-product of frustration over liberal politics being preached at them in comics. Most are all for diversity... but they don't want their political or religious views being written as the antagonist of those diverse characters without accurately depicting their side. I forget the details, but an issue of Champions kinda did that, framing Trump and Trump supporters as racists or something of that nature (I forget the details of that issue... the one with Gwen Pool).

I don't think it needs to be the ONLY complaint. I'll take issue with any level of complaints against diversity. I think the problem is most people don't realize when their opinions and the language they use to express them are shaped by the systemic racism we've all been socialized by because its been so normalized in our culture. So when people unknowingly voice a racially charged opinion out of sheer ignorance, they get shockingly offended when they are called out on it, and their natural tendency is to fight back rather than taking a moment to understand why it's racist. And it is that problematic rhetoric which has loudly driven the heart of the conversation against diversity in comics. Particularly in this very forum where I'm sure the root of their issue is the characters being replaced, but the fact that they've been replaced by women and minorities stoke the internalized racism/misogyny which we've all been socialized by. And though their problematic sentiments may be unintentional or the result of cultural socialization, it doesn't make them any less responsible for it being racist.

Anyways, this has gone terribly off topic...

 

[JewishHobbit]

I don't think it needs to be the ONLY complaint. I'll take issue with any level of complaints against diversity. I think the problem is most people don't realize when their opinions and the language they use to express them are shaped by the systemic racism we've all been socialized by because its been so normalized in our culture. So when people unknowingly voice a racially charged opinion out of sheer ignorance, they get shockingly offended when they are called out on it, and their natural tendency is to fight back rather than taking a moment to understand why it's racist. And it is that problematic rhetoric which has loudly driven the heart of the conversation against diversity in comics. Particularly in this very forum where I'm sure the root of their issue is the characters being replaced, but the fact that they've been replaced by women and minorities stoke the internalized racism/misogyny which we've all been socialized by. And though their problematic sentiments may be unintentional or the result of cultural socialization, it doesn't make them any less responsible for it being racist.

Anyways, this has gone terribly off topic...

It certainly has... we should probably let it rest

Though one warning... just be careful to make sure racism is FOR SURE the underlying cause of these sorts of things before you claim someone is racist, or else you (generally speaking) are shooting the conversation in the foot before it gets started. The racism label is thrown out so willy nilly these days, often undeserved, that it's losing the weight that should carry. Not always of course, but the people being called racist may at times become offended because they are, in fact, not racist at all.

Anyhoo... I like comics

 

[Neptune]

Any moron who believed Odison wouldn't return as Thor, Stark as Iron Man, or Rogers as Cap has clearly never read a comic book. Anyone who got pissed at a temporary lapse in the mantle was just using it as a weak excuse to justify their racist/misogynist sentiments.

You just proved exactly what is wrong with Marvel. Dismissing people who've read their comics for decades as racists, sexists, bigots etc. It is RIDICULOUS!

 

[Motown Marvel]

You just proved exactly what is wrong with Marvel. Dismissing people who've read their comics for decades as racists, sexists, bigots etc. It is RIDICULOUS!

Well...that’s NOT exactly what is wrong with Marvel. And I didn’t know reading Marvel comics for decades made its fans incapable of racism. Someone should notify their PR department.

 

[Sithborg]

You just proved exactly what is wrong with Marvel. Dismissing people who've read their comics for decades as racists, sexists, bigots etc. It is RIDICULOUS!

You are free to ignore the toxic element that is in geek fandom all you want, but that ugly side is there. And again, there are two issues that have a tendency to get combined, and it becomes difficult to separate.

 

[Neptune]

That is true. It's difficult to separate when people generalize. Sure there are racist and sexist fans out there but i doubt the majority is like that. Most people have genuine, legit criticisms. They don't hate black women because they don't like Riri replacing Tony, for instance. They are longtime fans, of course not all of them are gonna be pleased with new characters replacing their old favorites.

I do not for the life of me understand why the new characters can't just be actually NEW characters. Don't they deserve more credit if you want them to be popular? Shouldn't they stand on their own then instead of taking over a superhero identity that has been someone else's for decades?

 

[Mad Ones]

The rhetoric from the toxic side of fandom is so heated and charged. There are people literally ripping up and burning comics on YouTube. Show me a video of a BuckyCap comic getting destroyed because of the injustice of having a different character take the mantle.

Comic readers are notoriously obsessed with the status quo, so new characters don't sell well. New characters need the safety of an established franchise. Marvel made it so diverse characters could not be ignored, entrenching them in the universe and events.

 

[Sawyer]

Oh...

 

[Neptune]

Yes they certainly did but ithey can't decide what people like. And if you look at their comic sales you can clearly see that not a lot of people like these new characters. That should tell you something as comic publisher.

I think saying "new characters don't sell well" is extremely shortsighted. Quality always sells. Not saying everything that sells is of high quality though.