A World Without America: What if??

[Admiral_N8]

You're.ABSOLUTELY.RIGHT.

Despite what Reaganites say, Ronald Reagan had little or nothing to do with that nations colaspse during his term. Gorbachev's political ineptness and chernobyl did that for them.

He had a lot more than you give him credit. Without the huge increase in defense spending the USSR would have held on for at least 5-10 more years. If you recall, most Soviets still thought they could win up until the mid 80s.

Also, you seem to not be giving Reagan credit on how he opened up to the USSR making relations more friendly giving Gorbachev an easier way out of the Cold War.

 

[Admiral_N8]

There was also Canada, before we became *****es. And don't forget the Japanese, without America they never would have been a part of World War II.

What? Japan was apart of WW2 well before they attacked Pearl Harbor.

 

[Admiral_N8]

America was NOT a big player. There is a reason Germany bit-h-slapped France and England (and not the US) when Hitler came to power.

Hitler didnt want the Americans in the war, thats why he was against Pearl Harbor. And he attacked France and the UK becaues they were neighbors to germany in the way of control of Europe.

 

[JLBats]

What? Japan was apart of WW2 well before they attacked Pearl Harbor.

Wasn't talking about Pearl Harbor.

 

[Admiral_N8]

Wasn't talking about Pearl Harbor.

ok, well what do you mean Japan wouldnt have been apart of WW2 without America??

Japan was in WW2 regardless of America.

 

[ShadowBoxing]

He had a lot more than you give him credit. Without the huge increase in defense spending the USSR would have held on for at least 5-10 more years. If you recall, most Soviets still thought they could win up until the mid 80s.

Also, you seem to not be giving Reagan credit on how he opened up to the USSR making relations more friendly giving Gorbachev an easier way out of the Cold War.

No it was totally Gorbachev's part. Firstly Gorbachev never fired Yeltsin as Moscow Party Leader when he should have, he gave him a small job in Moscow demoting him but allowing him to stay in the picture. Secondly he marginalized Yegor Ligachev, who was a staunch conservative party member. By doing so he delegitimized the conservatives power and forced Gorbachev to make concessions with the leftist movement led by the re-envigorated Yeltsin. Yeltsin wanted them to switch to a Market economy, obviously this angered the conservatives who led a party coup and kidnapped Gorbachev and made him a prisoner within his own home. There are many other factors such as the Governments cover-up and inept handling of Chernobyl, Gorbachev using troops on his own people, and allowing Yeltsin to speak and damn him for embracing Stalin. In America we like to pat ourselves on the back for ending Communism, but in truth we had very little to do with it.

 

[Admiral_N8]

No it was totally Gorbachev's part. Firstly Gorbachev never fired Yeltsin as Moscow Party Leader when he should have, he gave him a small job in Moscow demoting him but allowing him to stay in the picture. Secondly he marginalized Yegor Ligachev, who was a staunch conservative party member. By doing so he delegitimized the conservatives power and forced Gorbachev to make concessions with the leftist movement led by the re-envigorated Yeltsin. Yeltsin wanted them to switch to a Market economy, obviously this angered the conservatives who led a party coup and kidnapped Gorbachev and made him a prisoner within his own home. There are many other factors such as the Governments cover-up and inept handling of Chernobyl, Gorbachev using troops on his own people, and allowing Yeltsin to speak and damn him for embracing Stalin. In America we like to pat ourselves on the back for ending Communism, but in truth we had very little to do with it.

We had very little to do with it? What about our determent policy for 40 years that prevented the Soviets from expanding their empire like the Soviets predicted would happen over 100 years. What about our Nuclear MAD situation? That had little to do with ending communism? Their nation would have been able to live for a long time if they didnt have to keep up the arms race with America from 1945-91.

 

[Calvin]

I thought it had already become fairly common knowledge in history books that Reagan didn't really do much to end the USSR?

 

[Admiral_N8]

I thought it had already become fairly common knowledge in history books that Reagan didn't really do much to end the USSR?

Nope, its still a huge debate. Even in Russia.

 

[ShadowBoxing]

We had very little to do with it? What about our determent policy for 40 years that prevented the Soviets from expanding their empire like the Soviets predicted would happen over 100 years. What about our Nuclear MAD situation? That had little to do with ending communism? Their nation would have been able to live for a long time if they didnt have to keep up the arms race with America from 1945-91.

absolutely.not.

We prevented them from spreading early on, which possibly helped....but the Soviet Union was well on its way to collapse when Stalin took power (which is ironic). Most people are under the misconception that it was the United States because they don't understand what political factors were going on inside Russia. We may have outspent them...but they caused their own collapse, and very well might have regardless. It all had to do with the political triangle of Gorbachev, Ligachev and Yeltsin.

Oh and the Nina Adreova letter was real important.

 

[ShadowBoxing]

I thought it had already become fairly common knowledge in history books that Reagan didn't really do much to end the USSR?

Yes if you took a Russian Politics course it really is not a debate. Russia collasped itself through inept politics.

 

[Arkady Rossovich]

The world would pretty much be in the same situation it is today,but the weight the US added to World War II..would be hard to see if the USA was not involved with the War.

It is rather amusing...the world would have not cared if the USA never existed..

 

[Admiral_N8]

absolutely.not.

We prevented them from spreading early on, which possibly helped....but the Soviet Union was well on its way to collapse when Stalin took power (which is ironic). Most people are under the misconception that it was the United States because they don't understand what political factors were going on inside Russia. We may have outspent them...but they caused their own collapse, and very well might have regardless. It all had to do with the political triangle of Gorbachev, Ligachev and Yeltsin.

They caused their own collapse by trying to keep up with America.

Without an enemy like the USA they could have spread communsim all across europe and asia, prolonging their government probably to even today.

 

[ShadowBoxing]

They caused their own collapse by trying to keep up with America.

Without an enemy like the USA they could have spread communsim all across europe and asia, prolonging their government probably to even today.

Nope...you obviously have never studied Russia.

 

[Admiral_N8]

Yes if you took a Russian Politics course it really is not a debate. Russia collasped itself through inept politics.

No, I took one a few years ago, and they dont think it was through politics, they think it was primarily due to their flawed economic system and warmer feeling between Reagan and Gorb. Their flawed economic system couldnt keep up with a capitalistic system, Gorb saw that, and added with his 'friendly' relationship to Reagan ended their 45 year struggle.

 

[Admiral_N8]

Nope...you obviously have never studied Russia.

Ahh there we go, Mr high and mighty at it again. How predictable

Take your arrogant attitude elsewhere and argue the point.

 

[ShadowBoxing]

No, I took one a few years ago, and they dont think it was through politics, they think it was primarily due to their flawed economic system and warmer feeling between Reagan and Gorb. Their flawed economic system couldnt keep up with a capitalistic system, Gorb saw that, and added with his 'friendly' relationship to Reagan ended their 45 year struggle.

You say these things but seriously I think you're full of sh-- because you haven't named one politician in the Russian Politburo in this conversation yet, and I have named three. The Russian Government tried to legitize itself, thats what caused the collaspe. Tell me, who was Yeltsin's opponent in the Politburo.

I would answer that question quickly, because I am already assuming you're researching the answer.

 

[Admiral_N8]

You say these things but seriously I think you're full of sh-- because you haven't named one politician in the Russian Politburo in this conversation yet, and I have named three. The Russian Government tried to legitize itself, thats what caused the collaspe. Tell me, who was Yeltsin's opponent in the Politburo.

Very mature, honestly why do people like you feel the need to act this way??

You think because you named a few Supreme controllers in the Political Bureau of the USSR that means you know everything and I dont?


Again, take your arrogant childish attitude somewhere else.

 

[ShadowBoxing]

Very mature, honestly why do people like you feel the need to act this way??

You think because you named a few Supreme controllers in the Political Bureau of the USSR that means you know everything and I dont?


Again, take your arrogant childish attitude somewhere else.

It means you don't command the facts and therefore don't know what you're talking about. This is the same thing that happened in the last thread where you kept acting like the grandfather of all knowledge with Big Bang theory and were asking questions that indicated to Calvin that you had no idea what you're talking about. Perhaps you should check the poll results....your hated here because YOU'RE ARROGANT...other people with knowledge make intelligent comments and you decide its your place to act like you know better than us. You need to get a major attitude adjustment...I wouldn't treat you like an a$$hole if you did not act like one.

 

[Admiral_N8]

It means you don't command the facts and therefore don't know what you're talking about. This is the same thing that happened in the last thread where you kept acting like the grandfather of all knowledge with Big Bang theory and were asking questions that indicated to Calvin that you had no idea what you're talking about. Perhaps you should check the poll results....your hated here because YOU'RE ARROGANT...other people with knowledge make intelligent comments and you decide its your place to act like you know better than us. You need to get a major attitude adjustment...I wouldn't treat you like an a$$hole if you did not act like one.

I act like an "a$$hole"? How, I am not rude, dont pretend that I know everything and anyone who disagree with me doesnt, dont cuss at people, dont name call, dont gang up on someone. I said a simple argument and you go off and say "clearly I dont know anything" and "youre full of sh--".

Grow up, and dont post in this thread unless you are just going to argue our points.

 

[ScottyBBadd]

About the same as it is now. That is like me wondering what if Texas never joined the U.S. Moot point.

 

[Admiral_N8]

About the same as it is now. That is like me wondering what if Texas never joined the U.S. Moot point.

Thanks for reminding me of this thread lol, forgot about it.


How is wondering what the world would be like 100 years ago if America became 100% isolationist a moot point?

Its just a what if.

 

[ScottyBBadd]

Thanks for reminding me of this thread lol, forgot about it.


How is wondering what the world would be like 100 years ago if America became 100% isolationist a moot point?

Its just a what if.

No problem. I just believe the world would be just as messed up with or without U.S. intervention.

 

[Admiral_N8]

No problem. I just believe the world would be just as messed up with or without U.S. intervention.

What about Americas effect on WW2, and the Cold War? Dont you think that helped make the world a better place...and the world would have been worse off without Americas help?

 

[ScottyBBadd]

What about Americas effect on WW2, and the Cold War? Dont you think that helped make the world a better place...and the world would have been worse off without Americas help?

I am thinking more so recent events.