About MJ and the men...

Discussion in 'Spider-Man 1, 2 & 3' started by Green Goblin, Jun 27, 2013.

  1. Green Goblin

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    Not hating on Dunst or the MJ character.

    How many guys did she see during the trilogy?
    Why did Peter want to marry her after 6 months in SM3?
    Why did she try to kiss Peter when she was engaged?

    Did anyone else find her to be a bit of a harlot?
     
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  2. The Joker

    The Joker The Clown Prince of Crime

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    Flash, Harry, John, Peter. Four guys between three movies. She threw her feminine wiles around like ninja stars. She used guys like security blankets to make herself feel better. Never gave a damn about their feelings. Just her own.
     
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  3. Green Goblin

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    Yeah, in general I liked the Rami Spider-Man but I never really liked his MJ. I read Ultimate Spider-Man so I don't know alot about 616 MJ. Was Rami's MJ like her at all?
     
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  4. pr0xyt0xin

    pr0xyt0xin Shaper Savant

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    LOL. O_O well put, my friend.

    Since the films took place in the course of 3-4 years, I'd say it would be reasonable in real life, but not in the span of 6 hours worth of film.
     
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  5. UltimateWebhead

    UltimateWebhead Black's the new Red&Blue

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    In a word, no. There were some minor flashes of the character however Raimi's MJ was not at all like 616. MJ was a fun, party girl who loved to dance and was into music...on the surface. Learning more about her, she had great strength...she gave up on her dreams to take care of her sick mother only to try and take them up again after her mother's passing. And as far as I know, MJ was not selfish. BTW, you should try reading 616 comics.
     
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  6. jonathancrane

    jonathancrane I love Marvel, DC & EC!

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    While I am unaware of your intentions or social views, the final statement in your post is misogynistic. Note: this criticism is not directed to you, as a person, but, the question/claim you posited at the end of the post is quite socially inappropriate. Male superheoes in cinema are given a free pass; do we shame Iron Man or Batman for the numerous one night stands they have? Secondly, dating does not equate to sex; there is no onscreen evidence that she held sexual congress with anyone. But, if she did, I return to my original question: so what? What is wrong with a woman expressing our sexuality? The infuriating tension (and double standard) in our society is that promiscuity in heteronormative men is promoted, while all of the dread/rage is evacuated into the female, as a population and idea.

    Sexual intimacy is absent in the Raimi films; all of the intimacy that is present is in chronemics (time) and proximics (space.) Hence, if we examine the films with this criteria, we see that Peter is a very homosocial figure. While he does not engage in sex with other men, he spends ample time with them, especially the ones who possess sexually appealing bodies (cough, cough, Harry.) If anything, it is peculiar that he spends more time with men, whether it is Osborn, Ock, Harry, or JJJ, than he does with women. The screentime he has with the males figures definitely reinforces this; hence, Peter is a very strange figure.

    Now, this not a proper critical reading of the films; I would be more detailed and jargon-oriented; my point of this post is to point out that it is wrong to evacuate dread onto the Woman, the figure and the idea, for possessing sexuality; the irony of the situation is that Raimi's films were far from possessing any traditional sexual energy associated with heternormative romances.

    Again, please be careful with your wording: the Hype has a large female population, and there is no need to make them feel uncomfortable with language such as 'harlot' or shaming sexuality.
     
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  7. Green Goblin

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    Well done, your actually one of the few people on the Internet to convince me that I'm wrong. While I still think it was odd about the way that she had intimate moments with other people your right that we never know if they had sex. I used harlot as I thought it was more respectful than certain other words.
    Oddly though, Of all my thoughts and feelings about the Rami Parker I never got an idea that there was a slight chance he was homosexual...
     
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  8. Venom75

    Venom75 I'm symbiotic!

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    But I wonder how many of these guys she actually slept with?
     
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  9. Dagenspear

    Dagenspear Well-Known Member

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    Yes. Damn her. Damn that ***** Mary-Jane for DARING to date a perfectly reasonable amount of men within the span of three years! She's a viscious **** for having any kind of agency as human being whatsoever! She is a woman and has NO RIGHT to do anything for herself or make ANY choices AT ALL! She also doesn't get to be angry, upset, agitated, jealous or emotionally conflicted in any way, shape or form in regards to any man. Because, ya know, she's a woman.

    You should be ashamed of yourself. That goes to anyone who agrees with this as well.
     
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  10. Dagenspear

    Dagenspear Well-Known Member

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    Yes. Damn her. Damn that ***** Mary-Jane for DARING to date a perfectly reasonable amount of men within the span of three years! She's a viscious **** for having any kind of agency as human being whatsoever! She is a woman and has NO RIGHT to do anything for herself or make ANY choices AT ALL! She also doesn't get to be angry, upset, agitated, jealous or emotionally conflicted in any way, shape or form in regards to any man. Because, ya know, she's a woman.

    You should be ashamed of yourself. That goes to anyone who agrees with this as well.
     
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  11. The Joker

    The Joker The Clown Prince of Crime

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    She treats other people around her like dirt without a thought for anyone's feelings except her own. She throws her feminine wiles around like ninja stars. In Spider-Man 1 alone she goes from Flash to Harry, to kissing Spider-Man while she's with Harry, to trying to be with Peter at the end.

    Then in Spider-Man 2 she's engaged to John Jameson, while trying to get with Peter behind John's back, then she leaves John at the altar.

    Then we have Spider-Man 3, where she is by far at her worst. She tells Peter to tell her he loves her, and then never says it back to him when he does. She gets angry at him when he tries to reassure her about the bad review she gets. She throws him a hateful jealous look when she realizes the crowd outside her theater are clapping for Spidey and not her. She doesn't tell Peter she got fired and then gets all upset when she claims he doesn't understand how she feels.

    She gets annoyed and jealous that he did the sacred upside down kiss with Gwen for a publicity stunt, but it's ok for her to use the kiss on John Jameson, and that was a private intimate kiss. Should Peter get annoyed every time she kisses a guy in a play?

    She gives into Harry's pathetic threat and dumps Peter. Harry doesn't threaten her life, or Aunt May's or anyone else's. Just Peter's. She knows first hand Peter is more than able to deal with Harry since she's seen him take on Green Goblin and Doc Ock successfully. Instead of just telling Peter what Harry is doing she breaks Peter's heart instead. What's even worse is that Harry can still try and kill Peter after this anyway.

    She kisses Harry when she's with Peter. She's finally with the guy she's supposed to love and she still ends up kissing another guy anyway.

    Awful character. Possibly the worst superhero love interest ever.
     
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  12. Dagenspear

    Dagenspear Well-Known Member

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    Well, that would be your first mistake: Seeing her as a love interest at all. She's an equal character within the overall story. She's no more a simple love interest than Harry or Peter are. That's what's so great. And it's also what doesn't make her character "AWFUL!". How old are you, by the way? You don't like her like her, so she's "AWFFUUULLLL!!!!!" :( :'( :mad: , nope, sorry buddy, that's not how it works. "She throws feminine wiles around like ninja stars." In one general direction at a time? Saying that more than once isn't gonna make it true. MJ has no prior relationship to Peter or Harry at the time when they've both fallen for her. She flirts with Peter a bit when he shows interest in their fifth scene together, but nothing else. And there's nothing wrong with MJ breaking up with Flash and going out with Harry. She certainly doesn't "throw" anything around by doing so. So, I can only assume you mean the rain scene, where there were 2, count em', 2 parties involved, both participating in the kiss that took place there. She kisses Spider-Man because her relationship with Harry isn't working. There's an emotional disconnect between them you see. They're too much alike. Both children of distant fathers. So naturally she starts spin out of it a little. I'd say they'd been dating for a month, maybe two. But then things fall through and she gravitates to Peter. It's really all about her character journey throughout SM1 where she has to discover the kind of love she wants and needs in her life. She goes from Flash-a guy who probably didn't put too much thought into her feelings as a person-to Harry-who is nice and good to her, but just can't engage emotionally with her in the right way, as shown in the where his answer to her nearly
     
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  13. WarriorDreamer

    WarriorDreamer Well-Known Member

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    Let's break it down. She was dating Flash Thompson is school because, I guess he was popular and she was one of the popular girls. She dumped him at graduation when she realised he was a jerk. She then starts dating Harry because presumably he asked her, not because she pursued him. I think Harry probably wanted to get one over on Pete more than he did want to be with her. I think this was mostly done as a love triangle and because she dated him in the comics. She kisses Spider-Man as a way of 'thanking him.' Some people just shake hands or buy a gift but I guess kissing is her way of thanking him.
    She tells Peter she loves him because she realises no-one has looked out for her as much as he has. He tells her he only wants to be friends. She moves on and hooks up with John. (How she manges to pull a dashing astronaut I will never know.) She used John to get over Peter in this instance, but that is what many people do in real life, when they are rejected.

    The real crime she makes is kissing Harry behind Peter's back in SM3 as well as not being apprecaitve and understanding of what he has to deal with on a daily basis. I think that is Mary Jane at her worst and I agree she became a hateable character in SM3. For me its more of a 'How in the heck did she pull him' and less of a 'OMG what a ****!!'
     
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  14. The Joker

    The Joker The Clown Prince of Crime

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    She's the love interest. She's there as the object of Peter's romantic affections. That's her role in the story. She's the girl he wants. That and being the damsel in distress.

    Explain please.

    Old enough to know a bad selfish person when I see one.

    Correct. For valid reasons.

    Yes, it does when it's the truth, which in this case it is.

    Sorry buddy.

    Yes. In each movie she's with one guy put somehow always ends up locking lips with another guy.

    I know that. It's already true. I'm just reiterating the fact.

    So?

    That's not the point. In the same movie she dumps Flash, then in the blink of an eye she's with Harry, then she's declaring she thinks she's in love with Spider-Man, then she's saying she's in love with Peter.

    Feminine wiles flinging around left, right, and center in SM-1.

    Of course not, if she's actually genuinely romantically interested in Harry, which she clearly wasn't.

    I'm talking about how she just throws herself into relationships with guys who are obviously under the impression that she likes them. Where would they get that idea I wonder?

    If your relationship with someone isn't working then you end it before you go kissing other guys.

    I don't care about the reasons why she isn't interested in Harry. He was genuine in his feelings for her, he even told Peter so. If MJ wasn't feeling the same way, then she should have ended it.

    But she didn't care. She uses guys to fill in her own selfish insecurities. Just like she agreed to marry John when she obviously did not love him. She just did it because Peter wasn't there for her. John was just another security blanket.

    By walking all over guys to do it? She didn't learn a thing in SM-1. She used another guy in Spider-Man 2. Only this one she agreed to marry.

    She a selfish girl who only cares about her own feelings. She never stops for a moment to think what her actions are doing to these guys who think she loves them as much as they do her.
     
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    Last edited: Jun 29, 2013
  15. Green Goblin

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    I think we can all agree that Emma Stone's Gwen was a better written character...
     
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  16. Human Torch

    Human Torch Well-Known Member

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    I don't get how people still try to equate the two.

    With MJ,she was basically "testing" her feelings for John (her fiance,mind you) by seeing if she could feel the same passion for him that she did with Spider-Man, (remember,she didn't even know he was Peter at the time.) showing that she had her doubts as to staying with him,long before the altar.

    With Peter,he was already in a steady relationship with MJ. They were going to be engaged soon.The kiss was supposedly something that was a strong bond between them, now that they were together.Not exactly the kind of thing you could get away with doing for laughs 'n giggles with a girl you hardly know- right in front of your girlfriend.
     
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  17. Human Torch

    Human Torch Well-Known Member

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    A lot of people want to dump on S-M 3's MJ/(or Dunst in general as MJ)but to me it was the most accurate portrayal of a relationship in a CBM.It's not joyride.There's lack of communication,misunderstanding,selfish ambition (for Peter and MJ both).

    Peter was letting his ego get away from him.He didn't think of the consequences of anything he did as far as MJ was concerned.MJ was being unreasonable,probably because (beginning with the last scene of SM 2) she wasn't ready to handle being "Spider-Man's girlfriend".The reality of it was she left a guy with money and position for a guy in a shabby dump with a door that doesn't even work.And while she's living in the "real world" he's "living large" as Spider man.

    It's basically both their fault and neither at the same time.Like real life,it's no "happily ever after" since they got together.Peter at least,makes the realization that he isn't ready.And we're left hoping at the final scene,that they have matured enough to take on their relationship from scratch.
     
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  18. The Joker

    The Joker The Clown Prince of Crime

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    Because it's a valid analogy.

    Baloney. She was engaged to the guy. If she has to kiss the guy upside down to know if she's in love with him or not, then she's even stupider than I gave her credit for.

    But you're missing the point. She was using this so called special kiss in an intimate way on a guy she didn't even love. How is this worse than Peter using it as a publicity thing?

    Peter obviously never held the upside down kiss in some big sacred way like MJ did in her head. Did we ever see Peter and MJ kiss this way again since? Or even speak about the kiss until then? No. MJ made some big thing about it in her head, used it on another guy herself whom she was ENGAGED to, then bit Peter's head off because he used it for a publicity stunt.

    You see now why her reaction was ridiculous.
     
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  19. The Joker

    The Joker The Clown Prince of Crime

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    How is that the most accurate portrayal of a relationship? Since when are relationships filled with lack of communication, misunderstanding, selfish ambition etc? All that shows is reasons why they shouldn't be together.

    We went through all of this lack of communication and misunderstanding jazz in Spider-Man 1 and 2 when Peter was not being wholly open with MJ, and she misunderstood his secrecy for aloofness and not caring enough about her.

    Been there, done that. They should be past of all of this now.

    How? By being proud of himself for finally getting some recognition as the hero he is?

    What are you talking about? What did he do that was terrible and had bad consequences on MJ? She was the one keeping secrets about being fired, and then getting annoyed at him because he didn't understand how she feels. She gets annoyed at him when he tries to reassure her after she gets a bad review.

    Peter can't do right by her in her eyes no matter how much he tries.

    That shouldn't matter one iota if she loves him. Peter could be living in a cardboard box on a sidewalk, it shouldn't make a difference to her.

    The fact that you're arguing on MJ's behalf by using money and position just makes her look even more shallow.
     
    #19
    Last edited: Jun 30, 2013
  20. Human Torch

    Human Torch Well-Known Member

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    Boy that was quick!:woot:

    No,it's not.....as I just pointed out.:oldrazz:


    Lets be honest.She never really loved the guy.She was "marrying up"/for spite.It's not like there was this great love affair.
    She was in a relationship with John.They were days from being married."The kiss" is probably the least intimate thing they did.

    But the overall problem was Peter letting his ego get away from him.He's kissing a strange girl in front of MJ. He didn't think that might not work out for him at home.He's pretty damned naive I guess.

    I think that's part of my point.Peter clearly didn't have the kind of bond with MJ he thought he had,if something that was as important to her as "the kiss" escaped him.
    No,I think it's probably how most women would have reacted.
    However,"the kiss" incident wasn't the only problem with their relationship in the long run.
     
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  21. The Joker

    The Joker The Clown Prince of Crime

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    Your points were easy to refute :cwink:

    But you didn't. Your only defense was MJ felt more strongly about a kiss than Peter did.

    Exactly my point. One of the many reasons why she's a horrible selfish person. John clearly thought it was mutually loving relationship. She uses guys like this and doesn't care a jot about their feelings. Ask yourself what kind of a person does that.

    You're missing the point. Regardless of how intimate it looked to you, that's what it was. In her mind, and I emphasize in HER mind, this kiss was something special. So here she was using it in a private moment with her fiancee just to see if she loved him or not and that's ok. But if Peter uses it in a less intimate way, he's a dick for doing that. This coming from the cow who kissed other guys when she was dating Harry, John, and then even ends up kissing Harry later in the movie while she's with Peter lol.

    MJ is a hypocrite. There is no defense for her.

    It had nothing to do with Peter's ego. It wasn't even his idea. The whole crowd were the one's shouting for it. The only one against it was the little kid lol. Peter just said go for it to please the all the fans.

    Then that was MJ's fault, not Peter's, if she never communicated to him how important it was. It was a kiss. Not their first born child. Just like she never told him that she got fired. Just like she never told him Harry was forcing her to break his heart and end their relationship.

    Only if most women are selfish dragons like her.

    No, it was MJ and her selfishness.
     
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  22. Human Torch

    Human Torch Well-Known Member

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    I'm saying what they had was not a "healthy" relationship.But relationships like theirs does happen in the real world.All the time
    Life's not that simple,I'm afraid.
    The whole theme of the movie is about how Peter is losing who he is.It's right there,even before the symbiote business
    It's not a question of one of them being right or wrong.It's a lack of communication that gets them both in trouble
    Again,I think it's a fairly realistic take on a relationship for a CBM.No one can say MJ is the standered hero worshipping,angel that most "Love interests" are made out to be.She fells more like a real person,with motives that are all her own.
     
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  23. Lord

    Lord All Mighty

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    I think she was well handled in spidey 3, there Peter was the *****e
     
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  24. Dragon

    Dragon No Way as Way

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    Living large??? He's risking his life, breaking his back and had to suffer for years before a brief period when people finally cheered him on.

    And even after the applause, he's still penniless.

    And how weak is MJ that she always uses problems with one guy to turn to another, (Harry to Peter, Peter to John, John to Peter, Peter to Harry) rather than trying to work things out, or at least giving the guy a heads up that she's thinking of making a change.

    Then there's the Harry thing in Spidey 3. Harry makes a threat, and MJ, after seeing Peter save her and the city repeatedly, accepts Harry's threat as valid and tears into Peter even though she knows that her breaking up with him would do far more damage than anything Harry could inflict on him physically. She's petty, faithless and heartless.
     
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  25. Human Torch

    Human Torch Well-Known Member

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    Keep trying.:woot:

    But you didn't. Your only defense was MJ felt more strongly about a kiss than Peter did.

    You obviously have
    a particular dislike for the way she was written,and you are broad brushing the whole character,because of your dislike.That's fine,but there's no point in me going over the same ground.
     
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