Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. Agents of SHIELD TV series for ABC - General Discussion - Part 6

[Paladin-Hoss]

Heh...the more i think about it, the more AoS kinda reminds me of Mass effect.

A ragtag group of people, each with special skills...living on a ship/plane... fighting evil, one mission at a time

 

[Hunter Rider]

The cliffhanger was very good. Even the way they set up the action on the bridge worked as far as I'm concerned because it was clear that Po chose the site so that the SHIELD agents would be at a disadvantage. The identity of the Clairvoyant was hinted at if the little clues between Po and Raina in their last conversation in the limo weren't red herrings.

I'm not that familiar with SHIELD outside of the Cap books and the films, who where the hints pointing to as the Clairvoyant?

May & Ward are one of the more interesting things on the show. I hope the writers let that fester for a while before blowing it up. When their affair finally does come out it ought to have a major impact on the team.

I hope that before they have the whole thing come out into the open, they use it as a chance to show more to May than her mostly stoic side. It would actually be cool if it didn't become a soapy drama with them, given both are such dedicated field agents and emotionally in control.

I feel the same. But maybe he's a 16-year-old supervillian. He could become a special little snowflake if he lives long enough.

This show could do with using some of the less mega powered villains as enemies for the team, just to make things more interesting visually and add a bit of spark into the action.

 

[Shikamaru]

Well, I finally got around to watching the last episode.

After seeing the first few episodes, I asked myself the question "What is the purpose of this show's existence?" After half a season, I still find myself asking the same question. Seriously. When you have the entire Marvel universe to play with, why go ahead first with a bunch of no-name/non-comic SHIELD agents as opposed to Daredevil or someone else? The only logical reason for going this route is to use SHIELD as a means of expanding the rest of the universe. However, that is not what they did so far. There have been very few comic book stuff and the plot itself as a whole moves very slow. This is not a comic book. You can't have as many ongoing titles as you want and cancel them whenever you want (either after 2 or 1000 issues). Live-action doesn't work that way due to the obvious physical reasons. So what is the point of doing a show with these particular characters and that barely touches the rest of the Marvel universe?

"But the show needs to stand on its own two legs!" I keep hearing that argument and frankly, I don't buy it for multiple reasons.

1) When you're doing a Marvel TV show, it is foolish to go into it not expecting universe-building Marvel stuff, especially in a SHIELD show. Thus arguing "Why do you want/were you expecting more Marvel stuff anyways?" is a bit unfair IMO.

2) "Standing on its own legs" and doing more comic book stuff are not mutually exclusive. Arrow is littered with comic book stuff every week and is still a show that stands on its own legs. The key is to not make it obvious to the GA that you're just adding more comic book stuff in.


But most importantly....

3) This show isn't even doing a great job of making the best of what they have with the material they're working with right now. The plot is too episodic and too slow paced - the background stuff with Coulson and May drags on for way too long.

Certain characters aren't even used to their full potential and, in many cases, are pushed to the side in favor of less interesting + less complex characters.

I'm going to say something that I'll probably get tons of crap for: Mike Peterson should have been the guy who got on the plane instead of Skye at the start. He would have been a much better "window" into the show IMO. If you think about it, he is in the exact same situation Skye is in: a character with a messed up but interesting backstory who is trying to become a different person and has joined SHIELD in order to do so. The differences between Mike and Skye though? Mike has powers thus you can do more interesting things with him (since we are in a superhero universe), has already had his superhero "origin" in episode 1, is more likeable, less annoying, is played by a major actor from Angel, would have given the show a stronger tie to the MCU due to Extremis without ever touching Iron Man characters, etc. Furthermore, Mike had a character fits perfectly in tone with their direction. They want a show about how normal humans feel compared to superheroes? Mike had that theme written all over him. Let's see: was a normal guy with bad luck in life, felt inferior to superheroes, then gained powers and used them in the way a normal human would, then learned Coulson's message about what really separates the Avengers from normal humans (what they do with that power, not the power itself), and is now applying that message in his life + is on the path to hero.

Another example: Ward. They state in episode 1 he has "the best espionage skills since Romanov". Think about what that means, especially for a young character like Ward. Black Widow is at superhero status. Why not have more focus on Ward and his espionage skills to show how a young "normal" spy can evolve to someone on Natasha's level? Again, still in line with the whole "normal humans can be just as heroic" theme. Furthermore, Ward has a much more interesting past than Skye's "Where are my parents" past IMO. Yet the show's motto so far seems to have been "We'll develop Ward whenever we are not busy with Skye". Mike & Ward...both characters shoved to the side since episode 2 in favor of propping up Skye.

Why not further explore the Coulson/Ward dynamic? They have something original here - the young agent being the cynical "by the book" one and the older & experienced agent being the optimistic one. 99% of fiction usually does the same dynamic in reverse. They actually bent the formula for once. But nope. We need more Coulson/Skye dynamic development.

Then there is Fitz-Simmons. Originally two-dimensional symbiotic characters with barely any character, if at all. Now we will do an episode where we'll temporarily separate them to show Fitz's potential as a field agent. Then we'll just return him to his symbiotic status with Simmons. Of course we also had the chance in one particular episode to kill off Simmons and use that as an opportunity to further grow Fitz into his own character, but we decided not to go for it. Back to the "half a character" status with both of them.


If the mysterious leader of this Centipede organization doesn't end up being a comic book character, that would be another wasted opportunity at expanding the universe IMO.

The show is ok so far, but it isn't doing much to keep people excited. The whole "this is in the MCU" hype only lasted the first 2 or 3 weeks. It isn't surprising the show is losing ratings. They seriously need to step up their game IMO.

 

[fixxxer]

* Post cropped due to length. *

I agree with literally everything in here. Well said, sir.

 

[Xeno]

I'm not that familiar with SHIELD outside of the Cap books and the films, who where the hints pointing to as the Clairvoyant?

No, the hints were in The Girl In The Flower Dress and The Bridge because The Clairvoyant seems to be yet another made-for-TV character. In The Girl In The Flower Dress, when Raina and Po talked in prison he told her that The Clairvoyant doesn't like to be touched. In The Bridge, when the two of them were in the limo together and Raina was sort of fishing for clues that The Clairvoyant approved of her, she touched Po's hand with her pinky. He looked rather upset by the touch, which seemed to me at least to be a clue that Po himself is The Clairvoyant.

I hope that before they have the whole thing come out into the open, they use it as a chance to show more to May than her mostly stoic side. It would actually be cool if it didn't become a soapy drama with them, given both are such dedicated field agents and emotionally in control.

The way that May & Ward began their relationship was refreshingly adult. They're a couple of damaged people who sought comfort with each other because they understand each other's pain. There is also the sense that when they're together neither one of them is going to force the other to talk about their problems, which is something that they'd have to deal with if they had turned to anyone else. Both of them are acting like it's just meaningless sex but they clearly have a lot more invested in the relationship emotionally than they want to admit to each other. May is already losing her cool where Ward is concerned and she's even smiled and shown a sense of humor with him. she hides all that with everyone else, so it's an interesting side of her to see.

When the rest of the team finally finds out about them there will probably be a sense of disappointment for Coulson since he relies on May & Ward as seasoned agents and views Melinda as a friend. But I agree that it shouldn't be played as some sort of romantic soap opera scenario with anyone acting like they've been cheating or had no right to have a relationship.

This show could do with using some of the less mega powered villains as enemies for the team, just to make things more interesting visually and add a bit of spark into the action.

It would be fun for AOS to use villains like The Porcupine, The Trapster/Paste Pot Pete, The Swordsman, The Controller, Power Man (no, not that one) and other Z-listers from Marvel's early years. There are so many weird, fun minor characters the writers could exploit if they only knew they existed. That's one of the problems many with AOS having writers who don't know much (if anything) about comic books. They aren't able to make good use of Marvel's resources because they are ignorant of the possibilities.

 

[mkilban2]

I agree with literally everything in here. Well said, sir.

Funny, cause I disagree with most of it haha. Gotta love that about opinions and two people seeing the same thing different ways

 

[Xeno]

Certain characters aren't even used to their full potential and, in many cases, are pushed to the side in favor of less interesting + less complex characters.

I'm going to say something that I'll probably get tons of crap for: Mike Peterson should have been the guy who got on the plane instead of Skye at the start. He would have been a much better "window" into the show IMO. If you think about it, he is in the exact same situation Skye is in: a character with a messed up but interesting backstory who is trying to become a different person and has joined SHIELD in order to do so. The differences between Mike and Skye though? Mike has powers thus you can do more interesting things with him (since we are in a superhero universe), has already had his superhero "origin" in episode 1, is more likeable, less annoying, is played by a major actor from Angel, would have given the show a stronger tie to the MCU due to Extremis without ever touching Iron Man characters, etc. Furthermore, Mike had a character fits perfectly in tone with their direction. They want a show about how normal humans feel compared to superheroes? Mike had that theme written all over him. Let's see: was a normal guy with bad luck in life, felt inferior to superheroes, then gained powers and used them in the way a normal human would, then learned Coulson's message about what really separates the Avengers from normal humans (what they do with that power, not the power itself), and is now applying that message in his life + is on the path to hero.

Another example: Ward. They state in episode 1 he has "the best espionage skills since Romanov". Think about what that means, especially for a young character like Ward. Black Widow is at superhero status. Why not have more focus on Ward and his espionage skills to show how a young "normal" spy can evolve to someone on Natasha's level? Again, still in line with the whole "normal humans can be just as heroic" theme. Furthermore, Ward has a much more interesting past than Skye's "Where are my parents" past IMO. Yet the show's motto so far seems to have been "We'll develop Ward whenever we are not busy with Skye". Mike & Ward...both characters shoved to the side since episode 2 in favor of propping up Skye.

Why not further explore the Coulson/Ward dynamic? They have something original here - the young agent being the cynical "by the book" one and the older & experienced agent being the optimistic one. 99% of fiction usually does the same dynamic in reverse. They actually bent the formula for once. But nope. We need more Coulson/Skye dynamic development.


If the mysterious leader of this Centipede organization doesn't end up being a comic book character, that would be another wasted opportunity at expanding the universe IMO.

Great post and I agree with everything you said. I edited parts of it only for the sake of brevity but you really hit every problem AOS has perfectly.

The points you made about Mike Peterson are ones I agree with and have stated before. At the end of the pilot episode I really could not believe that Coulson chose to drag Skye along with his "elite" team while leaving a gifted man with the potential to become a superhero behind. The show would be so much stronger had Whedon et al. been smart enough to recognize the potential of introducing us to SHIELD through the experiences of an Everyman hero whom Coulson had taken under his wing for training. There was still plenty of potential conflict in that setup, as perhaps Mike would object to some of the methods employed in encounters with fellow gifted individuals, or disagreed with some of SHIELD's policies.

But instead of going with Mike, which would have been a brilliant move, they went with the Whedon tried-and-tired strategy of using young female as the show's focus. Mike was brought back, but only so that he could be disposed of in some manner so that the audience will stop asking about him. Either he is well and truly dead or he'll quit SHIELD because he needs to stay with his son, as Coulson strongly suggested. Dead or alive, there will be no superhero or superagent career for Mike in AOS's part of the MCU.

Coulson and Ward should have had an interesting dynamic, especially since Ward questioned his superior's inexplicable decision to recruit Skye. After Skye was exposed for betraying the team, Ward could have stepped up his opposition to Coulson's tactics, furthering the tension between them. That would have been a way to highlight the ways in which Coulson has changed from his old by-the-book way of doing things to a more intuitive style.

 

[Paladin-Hoss]

They've had one chance to make the Skye character interesting...and they blew it. Skye should have stayed as an infiltrator for the rising tide,they should have kept on making her character morally ambigous throughout the series.

Having the rising tide as another constant enemy for ShIELD would make things more interesting as well, as it would force SHIELD to fight their enemies on two fronts.

 

[Crimson King]

I would have split the difference between the very Whedon-esque Skye and the more interesting character of Mike by switching their roles. They could have addressed the lack of "power" females in the MCU by giving Skye Extremis and then having Mike be the hacker with a veiled past.

 

[Vartha]

saw a commercial for the next show lastnight again and cannot WAIT!!!!

 

[Vartha]

neat
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?...51243492.98282.421182894613231&type=1&theater

 

[Shikamaru]

Great post and I agree with everything you said. I edited parts of it only for the sake of brevity but you really hit every problem AOS has perfectly.

The points you made about Mike Peterson are ones I agree with and have stated before. At the end of the pilot episode I really could not believe that Coulson chose to drag Skye along with his "elite" team while leaving a gifted man with the potential to become a superhero behind. The show would be so much stronger had Whedon et al. been smart enough to recognize the potential of introducing us to SHIELD through the experiences of an Everyman hero whom Coulson had taken under his wing for training. There was still plenty of potential conflict in that setup, as perhaps Mike would object to some of the methods employed in encounters with fellow gifted individuals, or disagreed with some of SHIELD's policies.

But instead of going with Mike, which would have been a brilliant move, they went with the Whedon tried-and-tired strategy of using young female as the show's focus. Mike was brought back, but only so that he could be disposed of in some manner so that the audience will stop asking about him. Either he is well and truly dead or he'll quit SHIELD because he needs to stay with his son, as Coulson strongly suggested. Dead or alive, there will be no superhero or superagent career for Mike in AOS's part of the MCU.

Coulson and Ward should have had an interesting dynamic, especially since Ward questioned his superior's inexplicable decision to recruit Skye. After Skye was exposed for betraying the team, Ward could have stepped up his opposition to Coulson's tactics, furthering the tension between them. That would have been a way to highlight the ways in which Coulson has changed from his old by-the-book way of doing things to a more intuitive style.

I agree with everything you said, but it isn't just Mike that was nerfed in favor of Skye. Ward is in the exact same boat as him.

The Ward we are introduced in the first episode is not the same Ward of the rest of the show. Ward is introduced as an excellent young spy - had the best espionage results since Romanov, was apparently an expert at diffusing bombs, could go in undetected to complete a mission and get out unnoticed, etc. Furthermore, Ward is also initially portrayed as the viewer's eyes and ears from the inner SHIELD world, just like how Mike was the viewer's eyes and ears from the outside world. Everything SHIELD-related is seen from Ward's perspective. We get reintroduced to Coulson through Ward's perspective. We enter the plane and meet the whole team through Ward's perspective. Ward's contrasts with Coulson are also put great emphasis on.

Then from the second Skye gets on that plane, we never get into Ward's head to that same extent again (other than kinda in the Thor episode). The rest of the episode is reduced to a Coulson/Skye teamup and the event that triggers it is Ward being shot with a truth serum by Coulson that turns him into a complete wuss in front of Skye.

Following that moment, Ward also is reduced to just "punch anything that moves" brawn for the remainder of the show - and redundant brawn, since we already have May and Coulson for that - while every other youngster on the team has a talent there is no proxy for on the plane if one of them goes missing. What the hell happened to "best spy since Romanov"? Only episode we see him doing that is in the one where he fails at it and gets major help from Skye. What happened to the in-and-out bomb-diffusing expert? Only episode that deals with that is the one where his job was to escort Fitz to Russia so that Fitz could diffuse the thing only for Coulson to come to their rescue (so much for "in-and-out" ). Also, his far more interesting backstory? Nope. Let's address it every 5 episodes, but let's deal with Skye's backstory in almost every episode.

I should take a moment to make this clear: I don't think Skye is a bad character. I just don't think she deserves so much more of the main protagonist spotlight more than Ward and Mike do because a) she is the least interesting of the three and b) she is the least deserving of it based on her past with betraying SHIELD. She is literally a character randomly picked up from a van that the whole plot now revolves around because "the writers said so".

But of course, I shouldn't be surprised. This is Whedon we are talking about here. With Whedon, it isn't about which character is the most complex or has the most story potential nor is it about who would fit better for the main protagonist role. It's all about who he likes; that character will be shoved down people's throats, even if more appropriate characters for that particular part need to be ignored/hurt in the process. It should be pointed out this is the same guy who refuses to acknowledge Hank Pym's importance to the Avengers and to Ultron but fought to get Janet as a founding member in the first film.

Whedon is the Geoff Johns of Marvel - a very talented writer but has too much of a hard on for his favorite "pet characters" that he would do anything writing-wise to prop them up, even if it means crapping on other characters.

 

[Alex_Kidd]

Shikamaru, I quote you on every single statement.
Please Mail to Jed Whedon this posts. Or make Shikamaru the new showrunner.

Mike is a great character, with motivations, present, moved by the crisis, by needs and now in search of a redemption. and first of all: it's a father. Ok the kid is more annoyng of skye, but I have a crush for the fathers characters. So: push Mike for AOS. Push it.

 

[darkslayer101]

Shikamaru, you pretty much nailed every problem I have with this show.
wasted potential is always on the screen and the show is holding itself back for no reason.

 

[Crimson King]

There's an article on the A.V. Club about how Person of Interest transformed from a mediocre show to a great one. A lot of the problems the article pointed out in the early PoI eps sound eerily familiar to AoS--formulaic "something of the week" episodes, uninteresting characters, etc.

The good news is that PoI turned it around, mostly by doing away with the early formula and introducing a serialized storyline. I hope AoS does the same.

 

[Dark Raven]

I haven't watched POI since the early first season. Have they made changes to the cast (apart from Caviezel and the other guy with the limp)? The police/ FBI woman who was tracking him was rather boring and dull.

 

[Crimson King]

I haven't seen it. The article mentioned the addition of a bunch of new characters (like we're seeing with AoS). Not sure if the FBI lady made the cut.

 

[Dr. Evil]

I haven't watched POI since the early first season. Have they made changes to the cast (apart from Caviezel and the other guy with the limp)? The police/ FBI woman who was tracking him was rather boring and dull.

They've added Sarah Shahi and Amy Acker to the cast.

Spoiler

Taraji P Henson was killed off.

 

[Dr. Evil]

I haven't seen it. The article mentioned the addition of a bunch of new characters (like we're seeing with AoS). Not sure if the FBI lady made the cut.

Spoiler

She got killed off a month ago.

 

[dopemaster]

I just can't feel the same way I used to about this show. At this point, no one can deny how poor the writing has been. They really need to do something to stop the inflatable rafts and bulldozer pushing. I will watch it no matter how bad it gets... but Marvel is no longer infallible.

 

[Snow Queen]

There's an article on the A.V. Club about how Person of Interest transformed from a mediocre show to a great one. A lot of the problems the article pointed out in the early PoI eps sound eerily familiar to AoS--formulaic "something of the week" episodes, uninteresting characters, etc.

The good news is that PoI turned it around, mostly by doing away with the early formula and introducing a serialized storyline. I hope AoS does the same.

While a lot of the season 1 pre-mid season finale episodes were probably some of the weakest, I'd argue even the worst has been better than what we've gotten from AOS. Plus, it turned it around by the mid-season finale, imo, which I feel Agents of SHIELD did not do. At least even in the episodes that were weaker, majority of the characters and actors weren't irritating. I don't usually go in this section so I don't know what the general consensus is regarding the characters, but I find all of the main cast but Coulson to be either cringe-worthy and annoying (Skye, Simmons, Fitz) or boring (Ward and May). Most of the one off (so far, anyway) and recurring characters have been better than the main cast.

There was a lot of potential in the premise for AOS, I personally love the idea of focusing on SHIELD Agents, but I feel the writers haven't done a good job using this premise to the best it could be, which is rather disappointing. I'm planning on watching until the end of the season to see if they can turn it around but with this cast, I'm doubting I'm going to be a fan by the end of it.

Man, that was a really negative post. I feel bad coming in here and doing that so I'll list some of the things I think the show's done well:
-Coulson's still Coulson
-I liked Ward's introduction in the pilot
-I like how Coulson's death is being handled
-While some of the references have been a little much, I've liked a few of them and thought they felt rather natural
-I liked Hand and the actress playing her
-I liked seeing Colbie Smoulders in the pilot, hopefully we'll see more of her after HIMYM ends
-The episode with the Asgardian was actually quite good
-Mike Peterson is pretty good

 

[Dr. Evil]

I just can't feel the same way I used to about this show. At this point, no one can deny how poor the writing has been. They really need to do something to stop the inflatable rafts and bulldozer pushing. I will watch it no matter how bad it gets... but Marvel is no longer infallible.

Marvel Studios has had it's issues even before Agents of Shield.

 

[Silvermoon]

I just can't feel the same way I used to about this show. At this point, no one can deny how poor the writing has been. They really need to do something to stop the inflatable rafts and bulldozer pushing. I will watch it no matter how bad it gets... but Marvel is no longer infallible.

Be careful of trying to speak for others, because there will undoubtedly be those that disagree with your blanket statement. I still enjoy this show immensely and have had no problems whatsoever with the writing so far. I, personally, do not find it 'poor' at all, but I acknowledge that's just my personal opinion. I know some agree with me and others do not - such is the nature of opinions.

 

[Whiskey Tango]

Marvel is no longer infallible.

This was already well illustrated by Iron Man 2 imo.

 

[Dark Raven]

While a lot of the season 1 pre-mid season finale episodes were probably some of the weakest, I'd argue even the worst has been better than what we've gotten from AOS. Plus, it turned it around by the mid-season finale, imo, which I feel Agents of SHIELD did not do. At least even in the episodes that were weaker, majority of the characters and actors weren't irritating. I don't usually go in this section so I don't know what the general consensus is regarding the characters, but I find all of the main cast but Coulson to be either cringe-worthy and annoying (Skye, Simmons, Fitz) or boring (Ward and May). Most of the one off (so far, anyway) and recurring characters have been better than the main cast.

There was a lot of potential in the premise for AOS, I personally love the idea of focusing on SHIELD Agents, but I feel the writers haven't done a good job using this premise to the best it could be, which is rather disappointing. I'm planning on watching until the end of the season to see if they can turn it around but with this cast, I'm doubting I'm going to be a fan by the end of it.

Man, that was a really negative post. I feel bad coming in here and doing that so I'll list some of the things I think the show's done well:
-Coulson's still Coulson
-I liked Ward's introduction in the pilot
-I like how Coulson's death is being handled
-While some of the references have been a little much, I've liked a few of them and thought they felt rather natural
-I liked Hand and the actress playing her
-I liked seeing Colbie Smoulders in the pilot, hopefully we'll see more of her after HIMYM ends
-The episode with the Asgardian was actually quite good
-Mike Peterson is pretty good

This. There's no-one who really stands out, and even Coulson isn't so strong that he stands out from everyone else. He's no James Spader in the Blacklist, James Woods in Shark or Vincent D'Onofrio in Law & Order: Criminal Intent.

I can't imagine watching a series where May & Ward were the investigating agents like in the X-Files or Warehouse 13. These two are dull. And Skye, Fitz and Simmons are like the worst of the Scooby Gang. If AoS even had their version of a Mulder and Scully - two actors who could hold their own and carry the show during investigations, that would already be a vast improvement.

There have been many other shows where it is an ensemble cast and everyone is much stronger. It's a shame that AoS is very weak. I really wanted to like the show too.