BvS All Things Batman v Superman: An Open Discussion (TAG SPOILERS) - - - - - - Part 307

[Timebomb]

It's almost as if it's Razzie level bad.

 

[batfreakforever]

Its very amusing how some things can be seen as smart to some but stupid to others.
Very amusing indeed.

 

[Paradox1]

Bruce prepared his mind for war, kill or be killed, your enemy is evil, your enemy isn't human. It's a tactic the military uses in its training for soldiers to this day, because killing another human being turns out to be difficult for most people. War is very tribal in that way, everyone who isn't with you is against you. The Martha moment snapped him out of this mindset. It's not bad writing to me I've been in a ton of fights and trying to talk to someone whose prepared to fight is useless.

 

[shauner111]

Bat-punisher supreme. Bunisher.

 

[souperman]

Point is, it wasn't shown or said. Misslane just used an assumption to support her argument which does her no favours. That point about Superman knowing about Martha's connection to Bruce is ******** because it never happened in the film.



And then your argument falls apart. It was neither said nor shown in the film so that invalidates your opinion, I'm sorry. You just can't throw in assumptions to support your point. You actually have to back up your points with what was presented in the film here, a fact. Also it becomes stupid. Batman taunting Superman about his parents and then only gets surprised to find out that Superman has a mother. Screw logic. That was bad writing.

I agree it was not there and could have helped if it were but wasn't THAT necessary. I still think the scene works well and is very emotional as long as you're not nit picking.

Many films have such issues. It bothered some more than others.

 

[2kt09]

Bat-punisher supreme. Bunisher.

Yeah...please work on that.
Frank Castle with a bun isn't doing anything for me.

 

[The Joker]

Bruce prepared his mind for war, kill or be killed, your enemy is evil, your enemy isn't human. It's a tactic the military uses in its training for soldiers to this day, because killing another human being turns out to be difficult for most people. War is very tribal in that way, everyone who isn't with you is against you. The Martha moment snapped him out of this mindset. It's not bad writing to me I've been in a ton of fights and trying to talk to someone whose prepared to fight is useless.

There's a world of difference between what the military does, and what Bruce did. Everyone around Bruce was telling him that Superman was not the enemy, including trusty Alfred. Did that make Alfred the enemy to Bruce because he wasn't supportive of his "war"?

This wasn't some spur of the moment hot headed fight. This was something he planned in advance, and his reasons made not a lick of sense. That's the kind of shoddy screenplay writing that won the movie a Razzie for it.

 

[Paradox1]

There's a world of difference between what the military does, and what Bruce did. Everyone around Bruce was telling him that Superman was not the enemy, including trusty Alfred. Did that make Alfred the enemy to Bruce because he wasn't supportive of his "war"?

This wasn't some spur of the moment hot headed fight. This was something he planned in advance, and his reasons made not a lick of sense. That's the kind of shoddy screenplay writing that won the movie a Razzie for it.

Do you think it makes a lick of difference what civilians think to soldiers at wAr? Do you think, they don't know about civilian protest? Also Batman is a stubborn bastard once he comitts to something come hell or high water nothing stands in his way. It's one of his greatest qualities and faults

 

[The Guard]

Wrong. It was done so Superman can place his trust on Bruce so Batman can redeem himself.

It was done for multiple reasons. One of them is certainly to move the story forward and eventually get to the amazing warehouse sequence where Batman partially redeems himself by saving Superman's mother against ridiculous odds. I can't imagine anyone would complain about that, but here we are.

 

[The Guard]

Someone is triggered.

Do you know what triggered means?

 

[The Guard]

Superman has one mother, but Batman has no idea who Superman's mother is. So if Superman just said, "Save my mother," then Batman would literally have nowhere to start. Batman has no idea that Superman is Clark Kent. Plus, let's be clear, Superman just heard Batman talk about Superman's parents with contempt. Batman seems to genuinely hate EVERYTHING about Superman, so why would Superman think the best way to get through to Bruce would be to make a personal appeal? It's also a reasonable assumption to make that Superman, because he knows Batman is Bruce Wayne from overhearing Alfred and Bruce at the library gala, that he also uncovered the rest of Bruce's personal history. We know he did, because he calls Batman, Bruce, before he starts to talk to him and the fight ensues; thus it's clear Superman knows Bruce is Batman. So he uses his last breaths to say something that might break through to Bruce.

This.

And by using a specific name, instead of "my mother", he makes the moment about an innocent who needs to be saved, not just someone Clark himself cares about.

 

[The Joker]

Do you think it makes a lick of difference what civilians think to soldiers at wAr? Do you think, they don't know about civilian protest? Also Batman is a stubborn bastard once he comitts to something come hell or high water nothing stands in his way. It's one of his greatest qualities and faults

Why should soldiers care what people think about war? People make protests about all sorts of loss of life, from protesting wars, to people wearing animal fur. We're not talking about civilians telling Bruce anything. We're talking about people Bruce knows and trusts like Alfred point blank telling him he's wrong to want to kill someone who spends his life saving lives.

Watch this vid; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FXpiRzumrVY&t=7m3s

Stubborn doesn't equal stupid. Batman can be stubborn when he's decided something, but his decisions aren't blatantly moronic and senseless. Which is what Bruce was in BvS.

 

[The Joker]

This.

And by using a specific name, instead of "my mother", he makes the moment about an innocent who needs to be saved, not just someone Clark himself cares about.

That's even more stupid. What should it matter if it's someone Clark cares about? It's still an innocent in danger whether he cares about her or not.

It was done for multiple reasons. One of them is certainly to move the story forward and eventually get to the amazing warehouse sequence where Batman partially redeems himself by saving Superman's mother against ridiculous odds. I can't imagine anyone would complain about that, but here we are.

Maybe because people don't think blatantly bad writing is worth it to get to some hollow eye candy action scene.

 

[Paradox1]

Why should soldiers care what people think about war? People make protests about all sorts of loss of life, from protesting wars, to people wearing animal fur. We're not talking about civilians telling Bruce anything. We're talking about people Bruce knows and trusts like Alfred point blank telling him he's wrong to want to kill someone who spends his life saving lives.

Watch this vid; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FXpiRzumrVY&t=7m3s

Stubborn doesn't equal stupid. Batman can be stubborn when he's decided something, but his decisions aren't blatantly moronic and senseless. Which is what Bruce was in BvS.

I bring up soldiers because as I stated earlier Bruce committed to this war against Superman. Again your talking about Batman, and he doesn't really listen to Alfred. Alfred in most incarnations doesn't want Bruce to become Batman, he helps later but not without reservation. His actions weren't stupid to me and within reason of the Batman character.

 

[The Joker]

I bring up soldiers because as I stated earlier Bruce committed to this war against Superman. Again your talking about Batman, and he doesn't really listen to Alfred. Alfred in most incarnations doesn't want Bruce to become Batman, he helps later but not without reservation. His actions weren't stupid to me and within reason of the Batman character.

Committing to your own personal lunatic war against someone doesn't make you a soldier.

Alfred had his reservations at the beginning, but he never ever discouraged Bruce from becoming Batman, or told him him he was totally wrong to do it. He's stood loyally by his side and supported him, even welcoming new sidekicks Bruce has brought in to join him in his crusade. He's encouraged Bruce to keep fighting the good fight even when Batman was ready to throw in the towel. Stark contrast to blatantly telling him that he is flat out wrong to want to kill Superman.

 

[souperman]

Point is, it wasn't shown or said. Misslane just used an assumption to support her argument which does her no favours. That point about Superman knowing about Martha's connection to Bruce is ******** because it never happened in the film.



And then your argument falls apart. It was neither said nor shown in the film so that invalidates your opinion, I'm sorry. You just can't throw in assumptions to support your point. You actually have to back up your points with what was presented in the film here, a fact. Also it becomes stupid. Batman taunting Superman about his parents and then only gets surprised to find out that Superman has a mother. Screw logic. That was bad writing.

I agree it was not there and could have helped if it were but wasn't THAT necessary. I still think the scene works well and is very emotional as long as you're not nit picking.

Many films have such issues. It bothered some more than others.

 

[Micromind]

Its very amusing how some things can be seen as smart to some but stupid to others.
Very amusing indeed.

Movies are art form, and Art is always open to interpretations, it's quality is always subjective.

 

[Paradox1]

Committing to your own personal lunatic war against someone doesn't make you a soldier.

Alfred had his reservations at the beginning, but he never ever discouraged Bruce from becoming Batman, or told him him he was totally wrong to do it. He's stood loyally by his side and supported him, even welcoming new sidekicks Bruce has brought in to join him in his crusade. He's encouraged Bruce to keep fighting the good fight even when Batman was ready to throw in the towel. Stark contrast to blatantly telling him that he is flat out wrong to want to kill Superman.

I'm not saying he is a soldier, I'm saying he's adopted a soldiers mentality and views Superman as an enemy combatant.

Batman has thousands of stories and im sure I can point out a couple where Alfred is dead set against him being Batman. Comics contradict themselves all the time with new continuities, new writers and so on. Or there is movies like Batman Begins where Bruce is forced to runaway to become him.

 

[K-Rayner05]

Batman doesn't once say in the movie "I'm Batman"

 

[Sleiek]

Its very amusing how some things can be seen as smart to some but stupid to others.
Very amusing indeed.

Agreed.

 

[Micromind]

 

[The Joker]

I'm not saying he is a soldier, I'm saying he's adopted a soldiers mentality and views Superman as an enemy combatant.

For idiotic reasons. Comparing his determination to kill to a soldier doesn't change that. Batman's always had the determination of a soldier, but he's never had the I.Q. of a slug.

Batman has thousands of stories and im sure I can point out a couple where Alfred is dead set against him being Batman. Comics contradict themselves all the time with new continuities, new writers and so on.

Best of luck with that. You'll need it.

Or there is movies like Batman Begins where Bruce is forced to runaway to become him.

What are you talking about? He wasn't forced to run anywhere. He chose to go of his own free will. It was his own idea and his choice.

 

[shauner111]

Forced to run away? Must be a different movie..

 

[MydnightPhoenix]

I think Bruce's flashback to his parents death could have been done better to show clearly that he realizes that at the moment he is about to kill Supes he has become the thing he has been fighting against. I feel that you could get if you look and think about it hard but over-all it should have been made more clear. Not that a more unambiguous scene would have stopped obtuse people from thinking they are now friends because their moms have the same name.

 

[Erzengel]

Didn't Bruce tell Martha, he was friends with his son?