All Things DCEU News, Discussion, and Speculation - Part 1

[Timebomb]

If a mic drops in a forum and nobody agrees, does the mic actually drop?

 

[Timebomb]

I'm sure Bruce was having unprotected sex, so there is that.

 

[TeeKay]

The main problem with BVS is that its sloppily written and executed. That's a big problem in storytelling. However, Batman is still dumb. PTSD or not. You'd think in those 18 months or whatever he'd have investigated who Superman is and find out everything he needs to know. But nope. He was just chilling around I suppose.

 

[Kane52630]

Now misslane38 is gonna write another essay thanks to you TeeKay.

 

[Erzengel]

I disagree. I think Bruce always practiced safe sex and discussed sexual history with any potential partner.

 

[TeeKay]

Now misslane38 is gonna write another essay thanks to you TeeKay.

My bad.

 

[The Joker]

The original trauma was his parents' deaths, but it's the Black Zero event that is a new trauma that triggers Batman. It's the association with Superman that's important, which is why it only bothers Batman when Superman says Martha's name. Superman is who he has projected his sense of powerlessness -- the feeling he had when his parents' were murdered -- onto. His single-minded and reckless pursuit of Superman is Batman's fight (part of the fight or flight response) response; in fighting Superman he feels he is fighting the man who killed his parents and made him feel such impotence and loss as a boy. Finally, the absence of a thing isn't evidence. Unless someone associated with the making of BvS has explicitly denied that Bruce was experiencing PTSD, then what is non-existent is evidence that it was not the filmmakers' intention to portray Bruce as experiencing PTSD symptoms.

That's your interpretation but it's all theory. Hearsay. Nothing official in the movie or associated with the movie to substantiate it.

Your logic of saying unless someone associated with the movie says he doesn't have PTSD then its valid is utter nonsense. By that logic you can say unless someone says Batman isn't any number of things then its valid to say so.

If you make the claim that a character's actions, especially when they cause controversy with the fan base, are driven by a specific mental illness then it would be verbally stated. Either in the movie or by the people involved in it. Actor, director, writer etc. Especially when specifically addressing controversial actions you claim are a product of this mental condition. But nobody has mentioned it. Not in detail or even in passing. That doesn't happen if such an important element is there driving the character to such extremes.

So you can list PTSD symptoms, remind us ad nauseum that you are a trained counsellor, repeat your theory to infinity and beyond. It is not factual. It doesn't prove anything. You have nothing but your own opinion not fact.

 

[DeadStroke]

And this would be relevant if we were talking about a superhero picture. This IP is the antithesis of that and it's probably why Mel was approached, because this is the only type of genre pic I could imagine him doing.


Easier said than done. There are studio pics which succeeded because the studio intervened, or because the auteur fought for every decision and managed to win out.

The decisions which are deemed good/bad are only easy to identify after-the-fact. If it were so binary, there would be no studio production out there who would dare put out junk. Trash films generally affect their bottom line.

Nolan said it best. It all comes down to intellectual compromise.

 

[harlequinade]

The original trauma was his parents' deaths, but it's the Black Zero event that is a new trauma that triggers Batman. It's the association with Superman that's important, which is why it only bothers Batman when Superman says Martha's name. Superman is who he has projected his sense of powerlessness -- the feeling he had when his parents' were murdered -- onto. His single-minded and reckless pursuit of Superman is Batman's fight (part of the fight or flight response) response; in fighting Superman he feels he is fighting the man who killed his parents and made him feel such impotence and loss as a boy. Finally, the absence of a thing isn't evidence. Unless someone associated with the making of BvS has explicitly denied that Bruce was experiencing PTSD, then what is non-existent is evidence that it was not the filmmakers' intention to portray Bruce as experiencing PTSD symptoms.

That's a gigantic assumption to make which, granted I only saw the film once, is not backed by anything in the film

 

[Timebomb]

I disagree. I think Bruce always practiced safe sex and discussed sexual history with any potential partner.

You might be right. He is the worlds greatest detective. But then again, this is a mentally unstable Bruce with severe mental issues. No, I think you are right, the whole 1% thing. He is very cautious you know.

 

[OutOfBoose]

The amount of excuses you have to come up with to justify nearly everything in BvS...

 

[idiot09]

That's a gigantic assumption to make which, granted I only saw the film once, is not backed by anything in the film

Not a gigantic assumption. The two scenes, Bruce feeling powerless with his parents death, Bruce feeling powerless after Superman arrives, both are shown consequetively in the movie. Bruce's feeling powerless is mentioned many times :

"Thats how it starts...the feeling of powerlessness, that turns good men cruel"
"Criminals are like weeds, take one out, another one takes its place. This is about the future of the world, its my legacy"

Also the fact that when Bruce saved that girl in the BZ event, but couldnt save her mother, he was feeling the same powerlessness when he couldnt save his parents...

And in the end he became powerful again by saving someone else's parent, another Martha. Its all there in the movie. I dont think its a gigantic assumption.

 

[OutOfBoose]

Not a gigantic assumption. The two scenes, Bruce feeling powerless with his parents death, Bruce feeling powerless after Superman arrives, both are shown consequetively in the movie. Bruce's feeling powerless is mentioned many times :

"Thats how it starts...the feeling of powerlessness, that turns good men cruel"
"Criminals are like weeds, take one out, another one takes its place. This is about the future of the world, its my legacy"

Also the fact that when Bruce saved that girl in the BZ event, but couldnt save her mother, he was feeling the same powerlessness when he couldnt save his parents...

And in the end he became powerful again by saving someone else's parent, another Martha. Its all there in the movie. I dont think its a gigantic assumption.

I actually agree with this. But I repeated it many times - Batman's arc is the least problematic part of the film. Outside Batman going for murders without any justified reason and him accidentally snapping out of the rage trance - it makes sense, as an idea.

 

[misslane38]

The amount of excuses you have to come up with to justify nearly everything in BvS...

How is discussing Bruce's characterization through the lens of PTSD an excuse? I find one has to employ more excuses to reject this reading than one needs to consider or at least entertain the interpretation. The PTSD reading isn't a fix for the film. It is an interpretation based on an understanding of the condition and its diagnostic criteria. It enriches one's understanding of Batman while at the same time does not exonerate or excuse his failures and mistakes. The film doesn't paint Batman as anything other than a broken man who has lost his way. The only thing PTSD affects is how one relates to and understands Bruce as a character. One can empathize with his pain and struggle while hating how that pain has perverted his heroism. One can see his mistakes and flaws of reasoning with the understanding that those things are a manifestation of psychological trauma rather than intellectual deficiency. PTSD contentextualizes Batman in the film; PTSD is not something that can make that which is fallen not fallen. Batman did still fight, kill, and betray his fellow man. But he can still be good because he can rebuild what was broken.

 

[FunkMiller]

The original trauma was his parents' deaths, but it's the Black Zero event that is a new trauma that triggers Batman.

This is the centre of your thesis, your defence for all of Batman's characterisation throughout this movie, yes?

Answer me this... why would Bruce Wayne be so traumatised by the Black Zero Event? This is supposed to be a man who has been on a twenty year mission to save Gotham. He's meant to have had all the experiences as Batman we know about from the comics. He's meant to have fought The Joker, Killer Croc, Mad Hatter, Clayface, Scarecrow, Ra's Al Ghul etc. etc. That's this version of Batman's USP. He's meant to have seen death, destruction, pain, hate, suffering and evil up close and personal for decades.

Your argument is that he was effectively 'classic' Batman after all of this, but before Black Zero. A non-killing, mentally stable Batman.

...and then two aliens knock some buildings down. Which throws Batman over the edge completely.

Ever talked to anyone in the emergency services, who's been in their jobs for decades, and had to experience something horrific? I have.

I know both police officers and medical staff who went through 7/7 here in the UK. Ordinary people who experienced absolute hell. And yes, it stays with them... but they didn't crack, or break, or change fundamentally as human beings. If anything, their previous experience of traumatic eventsn their jobs, lessened the mental impact for them.

But you think Batman would just fall apart, do you? That none of his previous experience would have toughened him up, and that he'd have a breakdown because it was aliens?

Please. This is meant to be ****ing Batman.

Your entire argument is flawed.

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

The original trauma was his parents' deaths, but it's the Black Zero event that is a new trauma that triggers Batman. It's the association with Superman that's important, which is why it only bothers Batman when Superman says Martha's name. Superman is who he has projected his sense of powerlessness -- the feeling he had when his parents' were murdered -- onto. His single-minded and reckless pursuit of Superman is Batman's fight (part of the fight or flight response) response; in fighting Superman he feels he is fighting the man who killed his parents and made him feel such impotence and loss as a boy. Finally, the absence of a thing isn't evidence. Unless someone associated with the making of BvS has explicitly denied that Bruce was experiencing PTSD, then what is non-existent is evidence that it was not the filmmakers' intention to portray Bruce as experiencing PTSD symptoms.

Not a gigantic assumption. The two scenes, Bruce feeling powerless with his parents death, Bruce feeling powerless after Superman arrives, both are shown consequetively in the movie. Bruce's feeling powerless is mentioned many times :

"Thats how it starts...the feeling of powerlessness, that turns good men cruel"
"Criminals are like weeds, take one out, another one takes its place. This is about the future of the world, its my legacy"

Also the fact that when Bruce saved that girl in the BZ event, but couldnt save her mother, he was feeling the same powerlessness when he couldnt save his parents...

And in the end he became powerful again by saving someone else's parent, another Martha. Its all there in the movie. I dont think its a gigantic assumption.

Not I want to get into another tireless BvS discussion, but these are 2 great posts. Its why I get baffled when people say Snyder's movies are all style and bo substance. I have always found plenty of substance in his movies. And it's why I have always found re-watched of his movies rewarding.

 

[misslane38]

Answer me this... why would Bruce Wayne be so traumatised by the Black Zero Event?

Because it was a tragedy he could do nothing to stop. Batman could never have stopped Zod. Bruce was put right back into the same place he was as a child: the time before Batman. The reason why the BZE was so significant was because it wasn't just one trauma; it was a trauma linked to a childhood trauma. It was also within the context of existing grief for Robin and two decades of stressful crimefighting. These are all compounding risk factors for a complex PTSD episode.

The first responders you referenced were not in Bruce's shoes. What they did in the aftermath of 7/7 empowered them. They could make a real difference. Bruce felt truly powerless. Also, people respond to trauma differently based on risk factors. Bruce's BZE trauma didn't exist in a vacuum. There were several other existing risk factors that made his experience unique.

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

Yeah. To be fair, this ain't an issue. If anything it's actually one of the most Batman things he does in the flick - ensuring he has a back up plan should he lose the truck for whatever reason.

Now, Superman stopping Batman from chasing the truck full of armed terrorists, just to tell him to stop being Batman - instead of actually stopping the truck full of armed terrorists... now that's ****ing stupid.

Yep I really don't get people's problem with the Batmobile chase scene. If Batman knows Lexcorp are involved, then he knows the men protecting the truck will be well armed and there is a chance they could stop him getting what he wanted. As we saw in the movie, the Batmobile is tough but not indestructible, as Batman needs to deploy counter measures when KG Beast shoots a rocket at it. So the tracking device was back up.

Batman only starts trashing the truck itself once the rocket launcher is brought out also.

I agree on the Superman part though, he should have stopped the truck before stopping Batman.

 

[FeedOnATreeFrog]

BvS is a bad movie overall imo, but I agree with pretty much everything misslane38 is saying. That's how the movie played to me at least. Bruce's actions were not what brought down the movie for me.

 

[FunkMiller]

Because it was a tragedy he could do nothing to stop. Batman could never have stopped Zod. Bruce was put right back into the same place he was as a child: the time before Batman. The reason why the BZE was so significant was because it wasn't just one trauma; it was a trauma linked to a childhood trauma. It was also within the context of existing grief for Robin and two decades of stressful crimefighting. These are all compounding risk factors for a complex PTSD episode.

But, as I stated, that isn't realistic. Your argument is that Black Zero is the final catalyst for Batman essentially losing his mind - because he was powerless to stop Zod trashing the city.

But what about the twenty years or so beforehand, when he was crime fighting? What about all of Joker's victims he was unable to save? Penguin's? Riddler's? He would have felt powerless then as well, wouldn't he? Why didn't they 'break' him?

You attach so much significance to Black Zero, because without its significance your argument falls to pieces, but you fail to adequately underline why that series of events would be more traumatic to Bruce Wayne than any of his previous experiences as Batman... other than 'because aliens'.

Sorry, dog won't hunt.

...and besides all of that, at no stage in that entire crappy movie is there any indication given that Batman is suffering from PTSD. You, and all others who subscribe to the theory, have pulled it out of thin air.

Batman V Superman plainly states that Batman wants to kill Superman because he felt powerless to stop Zod and Black Zero, and doesn't want to risk feeling powerless again if Superman turns evil at some point, for no adequately explored reason - so he decides that killing him now the best thing to do, even though Superman is currently a hero.

THAT'S IT.

Thousands of words have been wasted trying to justify that creative character choice. It's a stupid, stupid motivation that makes no sense within the confines of the narrative. Bring up all the complex psychological arguments you like, but none of them are present in the movie itself.

 

[misslane38]

But, as I stated, that isn't realistic. Your argument is that Black Zero is the final catalyst for Batman essentially losing his mind - because he was powerless to stop Zod trashing the city.

But what about the twenty years or so beforehand, when he was crime fighting? What about all of Joker's victims he was unable to save? Penguin's? Riddler's? He would have felt powerless then as well, wouldn't he? Why didn't they 'break' him?

You attach so much significance to Black Zero, because without its significance your argument falls to pieces, but you fail to adequately underline why that series of events would be more traumatic to Bruce Wayne than any of his previous experiences as Batman... other than 'because aliens'.

Sorry, dog won't hunt.

...and besides all of that, at no stage in that entire crappy movie is there any indication given that Batman is suffering from PTSD. You, and all others who subscribe to the theory, have pulled it out of thin air.

Batman V Superman plainly states that Batman wants to kill Superman because he felt powerless to stop Black Zero, and doesn't want to risk feeling powerless again if Superman turns evil at some point, for some reason - so he decides killing him the best thing to do now.

THAT'S IT.

Thousands of words have been wasted trying to justify that creative character choice. It's a stupid, stupid motivation that makes no sense within the confines of the narrative. Bring up all the complex psychological arguments you like, but none of them are present in the movie itself.

Despite some inevitable tragic losses, Bruce could see a path for how Batman could stop villains like Penguin, Joker, and Riddler. But he can't see a way for Batman to take on beings like Zod. He had as much power to make a difference during the BZE as he did when he was a child and could do nothing to save his parents.

The indications Bruce has PTSD are the diagnostic criteria he meets. His symptoms directly line up with the DSM for diagnosing mental illness.

 

[harlequinade]

Not I want to get into another tireless BvS discussion, but these are 2 great posts. Its why I get baffled when people say Snyder's movies are all style and bo substance. I have always found plenty of substance in his movies. And it's why I have always found re-watched of his movies rewarding.

Oh I wouldn't say that. Substance is there, it's just stuck in imho badly written overstuffed movie. You shouldn't have to do mental gymnastics and project tons of assumption to make the plot work and justify scenes.

Still whatever problems BvS have were seem smaller by what Suicide Squad turned out to be. BvS is at least rewatchable in entirety.

 

[OutOfBoose]

How is discussing Bruce's characterization through the lens of PTSD an excuse? I find one has to employ more excuses to reject this reading than one needs to consider or at least entertain the interpretation. The PTSD reading isn't a fix for the film. It is an interpretation based on an understanding of the condition and its diagnostic criteria. It enriches one's understanding of Batman while at the same time does not exonerate or excuse his failures and mistakes. The film doesn't paint Batman as anything other than a broken man who has lost his way. The only thing PTSD affects is how one relates to and understands Bruce as a character. One can empathize with his pain and struggle while hating how that pain has perverted his heroism. One can see his mistakes and flaws of reasoning with the understanding that those things are a manifestation of psychological trauma rather than intellectual deficiency. PTSD contentextualizes Batman in the film; PTSD is not something that can make that which is fallen not fallen. Batman did still fight, kill, and betray his fellow man. But he can still be good because he can rebuild what was broken.

I have no issues with how Batman's condition is established in BvS (PTSD or whatever, I'm not a doctor), I just think it's a bad choice to start a cinematic universe. And Batman seeing Superman as a potentially the greatest threat to humanity? Not too convincing. I have issues with how it was resolved. Martha scene is a happy accident, that snaps Batman out of his rage trance, so he can think straight again. It's not a remotely satisfying finale of barely established conflict between Batman and Superman... And overall, the way the whole film is staged: it RIDES on absence of rational thinking of it's key characters.

 

[Bearzooka]

Batfleck didn't have PTSD in the movie, he got it after he watched it.

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

Oh I wouldn't say that. Substance is there, it's just stuck in imho badly written overstuffed movie. You shouldn't have to do mental gymnastics and project tons of assumption to make the plot work and justify scenes.

Still whatever problems BvS have were seem smaller by what Suicide Squad turned out to be. BvS is at least rewatchable in entirety.

Yeah that's a fair assessment, the substance is always there but it's not always presented in the best way and isn't always easy to spot.

I do find always thought re-watching his movies are interesting for this reason as you spot something new every time.