All Things DCEU News, Discussion, and Speculation - Part 1

[OutOfBoose]

Batman isn't a metahuman.

 

[Erzengel]

Luthor doesn't know that?

He's a masked vigilante who by eyewitness accounts could be a meta.

 

[ManWithNoName18]

Suicide Squad Oscar nominated makeup and hair designer on the character designs

How much research did you do into the DC Universe to prepare?

They provided me all the DC comics, and that didn’t help, because everything is already done. I can’t make exactly the copy, so we started to do something completely different—not completely different. Something right for the movie.

Before I started the movie, when David called me, I said, “Let’s see what is this Suicide Squad, because I have no idea,” and then I checked the internet, and I found a web TV station, people already talking about the makeup. I said, “Hold on, they already did it?” They were talking about the movie, saying probably the makeup should be like that, and the new Joker should be that. So that doesn’t help, what makes me so anxious. I was really terrified.

I kept the decision to start completely from zero. Like, don’t think they already exist. The color of [the hair] of Harley Quinn and the green hair of Joker—these are the only two we started from. All of the rest were going to be invented.

http://deadline.com/2017/02/suicide...-bertolazzi-makeup-hair-interview-1201907329/

 

[Chip Chipperson]

Before I started the movie, when David called me, I said, “Let’s see what is this Suicide Squad, because I have no idea,”

that sounds about right.

 

[OutOfBoose]

Luthor doesn't know that?

He's a masked vigilante who by eyewitness accounts could be a meta.

Considering they made Luthor godlike all-knowing, I doubt he can't make a distinction between a person with superhuman abilities and just a human with gadgets. Especially considering his two-decades-long battle with crime.

 

[FunkMiller]

Suicide Squad Oscar nominated makeup and hair designer on the character designs

How much research did you do into the DC Universe to prepare?

They provided me all the DC comics, and that didn’t help, because everything is already done. I can’t make exactly the copy, so we started to do something completely different—not completely different. Something right for the movie.

Before I started the movie, when David called me, I said, “Let’s see what is this Suicide Squad, because I have no idea,” and then I checked the internet, and I found a web TV station, people already talking about the makeup. I said, “Hold on, they already did it?” They were talking about the movie, saying probably the makeup should be like that, and the new Joker should be that. So that doesn’t help, what makes me so anxious. I was really terrified.

I kept the decision to start completely from zero. Like, don’t think they already exist. The color of [the hair] of Harley Quinn and the green hair of Joker—these are the only two we started from. All of the rest were going to be invented.

http://deadline.com/2017/02/suicide...-bertolazzi-makeup-hair-interview-1201907329/

Yes. God forbid anyone in the movie industry actually tries to replicate things from the comics.

 

[Erzengel]

Considering they made Luthor godlike all-knowing, I doubt he can't make a distinction between a person with superhuman abilities and just a human with gadgets. Especially considering his two-decades-long battle with crime.

Which is one of the issues I had. If he is all knowing, at least have his JL powerpoint presentation include everyone he perceives to be a possible threat.

 

[OutOfBoose]

Which is one of the issues I had. If he is all knowing, at least have his JL powerpoint presentation include everyone he perceives to be a possible threat.

We don't know the purpose of that list. Is that a threat list? I doubt that. It's just a list of people with super-human abilities, IMO. Since Luthor is concerned about so-called "metahuman thesis". And the government too.

 

[misslane38]

This is a movie that wants us to accept that the two greatest comic book heroes ever created are both incapable of rational thought.

Incapable is a ridiculously hyperbolic word. No one, including the most reasonable and rational human beings, act and behave reasonably and rationally 100 percent of the time. That sort of perfection is reserved for gods and godlike beings. Human beings make mistakes. Human beings sometimes let emotions influence their actions and behavior. In this film, since Batman is struggling with PTSD, some of his decisions and behavior are irrational because of his mental illness. But he also isn't portrayed as completely incompetent. His investigation of the White Portuguese and his successfully executed plan to kill Superman attest to Batman's ability to make rational decisions. If the question is why didn't Bruce investigate Superman to learn his secret identity, then that depends on Bruce believing that such information took priority over tracking down the kryptonite. Bruce is looking for the most effective way to deal with the Superman problem, and the results of his efforts indicate that his course of action produced the results he intended and desired.

Superman? I can't say I know when he acted irrationally. If you're referring to his decision to pursue Batman rather than the smugglers at the dock, then I think that's more a matter of prioritizing. Superman believes Batman is more of a threat to Gotham and law and order at that point than a few smugglers. If you're referring to Superman not trying to explain the situation more times during his fight with Batman, then that is a criticism based on your own foreknowledge of what happens next. You know that additional information could have made a difference, but Superman did not know that yet. What he did know as that he had tried to communicate with Bruce (even apologized and asked for help), but Bruce refused to listen. Superman decided that Batman would need to see how pointless is was to fight before he might be willing to listen. Because it truly did appear as though Batman only listened to fists.

Yes. God forbid anyone in the movie industry actually tries to replicate things from the comics.

The interview also mentions that some things from the comics were incorporated into the makeup designs, and I honestly don't understand the outrage. This interview is proof that the designs were good. Just because something is in comics doesn't make it perfect or adaptable. Comics and film have influenced each other for a while, so there's nothing sinister at work here.

that sounds about right.

Few people do, honestly, and expecting every makeup artist in Hollywood to have preexisting knowledge of every DC character is ridiculous.

 

[TeeKay]

Yeah man, they definitely didn't need a bio on friggin' batman and superman. It's not like it would be useful to have scientific and psychological analysis on two of the most powerful people on the planet that you plan on manipulating. It's definitely not important to keep a bio around so you know how and why irradiated green rocks can hurt a guy who could drop a battleship on your head (or snap your neck). It's also not important to keep info on one of the richest men in the world who also goes out at night dressed up as a flying rodent beating up criminals with his bare hands.

Side note: is batman supposed to be an urban legend or not? I've seen the movie 4 times now and it's really unclear on that point. If he is an urban legend then he's not really known "worldwide" now is he?

Cyborg says he doesn't think Batman was real or something like that in the JL reader. So yes. He's still an urban legend some how.

 

[OutOfBoose]

Cyborg says he doesn't think Batman was real or something like that in the JL reader. So yes. He's still an urban legend some how.

No wonder Bruce Wayne is depressed. "20 years in Gotham, Alfred. And still an urban legend. I'll kill Superman and the world will finally recognize ME."

 

[misslane38]

Why isn't Batman and Superman's bio in the Lex's meta file?

Does it really matter? It's clear that Lex does have heaps of information on Superman and Batman. Their details could not be on that particular file because Lex's existing plans to use and manipulate those two required keeping that information separate and more secure. Furthermore, it was always suspicious to me how easy it was for Diana and Bruce to get their hands on that drive. Mercy Graves checking in on Bruce in the act and nothing coming of it was even more eyebrow raising. Because Lex's plan included his desire for Batman to acquire the kryptonite, I wouldn't be surprised if he planted that drive and the information on it knowing full well what would happen. If that's the case, then there's no information on Batman and Superman because that's information he intends to keep to himself.

 

[FunkMiller]

The interview also mentions that some things from the comics were incorporated into the makeup designs, and I honestly don't understand the outrage. This interview is proof that the designs were good. Just because something is in comics doesn't make it perfect or adaptable. Comics and film have influenced each other for a while, so there's nothing sinister at work here.

Few people do, honestly, and expecting every makeup artist in Hollywood to have preexisting knowledge of every DC character is ridiculous.

The point is that time and time again people in Hollywood think they can do it better story and character-wise than the people who work day in and day out on these stories. BvS is a good example of how that is most definitely not the case. Change for change's sake.

A little more time working to adapt the existing narratives, and a little less time spent changing everything because 'them funny books aren't that important' and WB would be doing a whole lot better right about now.

Like Marvel.

 

[Chip Chipperson]

the only other live action adaptation of suicide squad was done on the CW... and all of them were dressed in fairly normal clothes.

If they wanna change stuff for the sake of changing things that don't really need changing, fine. But it better be good. This is the look ayer wanted, and I guess in some respects it worked for the monetary side of things.

 

[misslane38]

The point is that time and time again people in Hollywood think they can do it better story and character-wise than the people who work day in and day out on these stories. BvS is a good example of how that is most definitely not the case. Change for change's sake.

A little more time working to adapt the existing narratives, and a little less time spent changing everything because 'them funny books aren't that important' and WB would be doing a whole lot better right about now.

Like Marvel.

We're talking about makeup designs not entire character designs or characterizations. The people who create art for comics are not limited by the same practical concerns as filmmakers. What works on the page will not necessarily translate onscreen. And, from all accounts, the transition from page to screen went well enough to garner accolades within the industry.

 

[OutOfBoose]

I think it's a tight rope when it comes to designing the look of iconic characters for live action. On one hand, there's massive legacy you have to respect, on the other hand, you need to push boundaries and surprise people, and keep in mind technical restrictions. I don't see anything wrong in that interview. Every bad decision when it comes to the look of characters is on Ayer. Nobody else. Designers do what they told.

 

[Superchan]

If the question is why didn't Bruce investigate Superman to learn his secret identity, then that depends on Bruce believing that such information took priority over tracking down the kryptonite. Bruce is looking for the most effective way to deal with the Superman problem, and the results of his efforts indicate that his course of action produced the results he intended and desired.

Bruce had 2 years to analyze and study superman yet he did nothing until he found out about the kryptonite, which was 2 years after the BZ event! If Batman was in "fight or flight" mode as you keep saying then why were there no major indications that he was actively trying to take superman down? The answer is simple if he did what lex did and tried to study superman he would've realized that superman was clark kent and that he has a mother named Martha and a lover named Lois and would've experienced the 'MARTHA moment' long before the fight even started and the movie couldn't have that.

Superman? I can't say I know when he acted irrationally. If you're referring to his decision to pursue Batman rather than the smugglers at the dock, then I think that's more a matter of prioritizing. Superman believes Batman is more of a threat to Gotham and law and order at that point than a few smugglers. If you're referring to Superman not trying to explain the situation more times during his fight with Batman, then that is a criticism based on your own foreknowledge of what happens next. You know that additional information could have made a difference, but Superman did not know that yet. What he did know as that he had tried to communicate with Bruce (even apologized and asked for help), but Bruce refused to listen. Superman decided that Batman would need to see how pointless is was to fight before he might be willing to listen. Because it truly did appear as though Batman only listened to fists.

No it was a matter of Snyder needing a cool action sequence where batman murders everyone and superman doing a cool pose before crashing the batmobile.
Superman had ample time to interrupt batman's killing spree and stop him and the smugglers yet he decided to stand around in the corner so he'd look cool when Batman shined a light on him. Again an example of how this film has it's characters behaving in an illogical manner inorder to further the plot or support a particular visual.

 

[FunkMiller]

We're talking about makeup designs not entire character designs or characterizations. The people who create art for comics are not limited by the same practical concerns as filmmakers. What works on the page will not necessarily translate onscreen. And, from all accounts, the transition from page to screen went well enough to garner accolades within the industry.

Well yes, that's fair enough. I guess my comment is about the larger problem that some of the talk in this interview highlights.

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

It's still a file on "known" metahumans.

And Batman is not as visible as Superman despite being at it for as long as he was. It's not like he gave interviews.

It would have made more sense.

Like I said, each time I pass this on cable and never stay on it for long, I find another annoying thing not including the stuff I read on here.

Yeah man, they definitely didn't need a bio on friggin' batman and superman. It's not like it would be useful to have scientific and psychological analysis on two of the most powerful people on the planet that you plan on manipulating. It's definitely not important to keep a bio around so you know how and why irradiated green rocks can hurt a guy who could drop a battleship on your head (or snap your neck). It's also not important to keep info on one of the richest men in the world who also goes out at night dressed up as a flying rodent beating up criminals with his bare hands.

Side note: is batman supposed to be an urban legend or not? I've seen the movie 4 times now and it's really unclear on that point. If he is an urban legend then he's not really known "worldwide" now is he?

Fair enough on Batman not being known worldwide. But I bet Luthor knew plenty about him. In fact Luthor knew everything about Batman and Superman, so what would be the point in having a bio on them? We know he had been studying Superman for weaknesses also.

He didn't know much about WW, The Flash and Cyborg as they were more unknown quantity's, hence him gathering footage and photos of them.

 

[Greens]

Fair enough on Batman not being known worldwide. But I bet Luthor knew plenty about him. In fact Luthor knew everything about Batman and Superman, so what would be the point in having a bio on them?

He didn't know much about WW, The Flash and Cyborg as they were more unknown quantity's, hence him Catherine footage and photos of them.

Let's face it, that laptop scene was a JL commercial. Batman and Superman aren't there because they wouldn't have served the commercial.

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

Let's face it, that laptop scene was a JL commercial. Batman and Superman aren't there because they wouldn't have served the commercial.

Not denying that, just don't see it as a flaw that he didn't have stuff on Batman and Superman when we know in the movie he knew everything about him.

 

[OutOfBoose]

Superman wasn't on the list because it would ruin the Martha scene.

 

[misslane38]

I have no issues with how Batman's condition is established in BvS (PTSD or whatever, I'm not a doctor), I just think it's a bad choice to start a cinematic universe. And Batman seeing Superman as a potentially the greatest threat to humanity? Not too convincing. I have issues with how it was resolved. Martha scene is a happy accident, that snaps Batman out of his rage trance, so he can think straight again. It's not a remotely satisfying finale of barely established conflict between Batman and Superman... And overall, the way the whole film is staged: it RIDES on absence of rational thinking of it's key characters.

I thought it was a great way to start off a cinematic universe because it allows for Batman to be reborn. Essentially, the story follows Batman as though he is re-experiencing with his childhood trauma through the lens of the aftermath of BZE. So what we get is the same sort of origin story stuff but within the context of an existential crisis. Just like Nolan takes young Bruce up to the point when he would have shot the man who killed his parents only to set a course to becoming Batman, Snyder takes an older Bruce up to the point when he would have killed the man he projected his feelings of powerless onto only to set a course to recommitting to Batman.

Batman sees Superman as the greatest threat to humanity because he is struggling with PTSD. One of the symptoms of the illness is "distorted thoughts about the trauma that lead to assigning blame for the event to themselves or another person." The Martha scene is a happy accident, but PTSD often works with environmental and emotional triggers. "Save Martha" doesn't heal or cure Bruce, but it does snap him out of his flight or fight response. As I discussed last week, The West Wing did a great episode on PTSD called "Noel," and it explicitly suggests that as soon as Josh (the PTSD patient) can identify what is triggering his PTSD responses, he can start the process of getting better. Josh experiences the sound of Christmas music as sirens that blared the night he was shot during an assassination attempt. Working on a crisis involving a pilot who became suicidal after being shot down also affected Josh because the two men shared the same birthday. "Save Martha" and seeing Lois protecting Clark the way Martha Wayne tried to protect her family allowed Bruce to finally see the truth of himself.

For me, it is a satisfying finale because what saves Batman is that he is given a chance to be Superman's hero. He gets to make a difference. He finds his purpose and power again through Superman: his trust and his forgiveness. Superman, by contrast, was beginning to believe that perhaps no one stays good in this world, so Batman's ability to see the light before crossing the line into full darkness is enormously valuable to Clark. Clark spent most of the film defending and believing that the government and the public would ultimately recognize and join him in his cause for hope and justice. He tells Lois that he doesn't care what people say about him, defends the power of the press to a cynical Perry White, and tells Bruce Wayne that the rest of the world doesn't share his negative opinion of Superman. Superman appears before Finch's committee believing that having a conversation will help, and he's so optimistic about the process and humanity that he doesn't look for bombs or threats in his midst. At his lowest point, Superman starts to lose faith, so Batman's ability to see a path back to the light matters.

Exactly, I don't really know for sure whether Bruce exhibited the full spectrum of what one would qualify as PTSD the only thing that was made clear was that Bruce was angry at Superman and when one combines that with his jaded attitude after decades of service Batman's 1% speech begins to make abit of sense. However even if Batman had PTSD it wouldn't explain the character's apparent stupidity and lack of preparation.

Batman was prepared. Everything Batman did to prepare to kill Superman worked. PTSD does explain cognitive impairment because it is a symptom of the illness. PTSD interferes with concentration and is associated with reckless behavior, for example. PTSD distorts thoughts and memories. Even the nightmares, lack of sleep, and constant stress would impair reasoning, judgment, and clarity of thought.

Agreed and imo that's one of the major reasons why the film failed for so many people because the 'versus' part wasn't earned. What would've happened if Batman found out that Superman is actually CK with a mom called MARTHA? And would've happened if superman exercised abit more patience after being attacked by Batman (if nothing else than to save his mother whose life was on a timer) instead of just ramming him into a building inorder to start a pointless fight that existed solely because the title of the movie said so?

It wasn't the fact that Superman and Batman had mothers with the same name that made a difference. Watch the scene. Superman says, "Save Martha" and "You're letting him kill Martha." Lois is also there. The entire context of the Martha scene is what makes a difference. Batman needs to see Lois protecting Superman the way Martha Wayne protected her family. Batman needs to see himself in the same place as Joe Chill. Batman needs to hear that Martha needs saving, and that if he kills Superman, then he essentially kills Martha. Context matters.

I don't think it is fair to judge Superman for not exercising more patience. As you said, his mother's life was on a timer, and after two attempts to communicate with Batman, Superman deduced that Batman would not listen until he could see his mission to fight Superman was pointless. Superman could not have known that "Martha" would make the difference that it did. You are judging him based on what you know happens, and what you know will be effective, but Superman did not have that sort of omniscient knowledge at the time. His experience with Batman up until that point was that he was a man who only listened to fists, so that's the tactic he resorted to when Batman passed up a first and second chance to listen.

Now, I do think the way it was handled in the movie was a bit muddled when trying to determine how Robin's death affected him vs. Black Zero.

It doesn't have to be one or the other. The grief just makes the PTSD trauma more complex.

 

[Rorschach2012]

I've been here long enough to not be amazed at how dumb some of these Hype arguments are, but here i am... amazed that this has gone on for so long.

This PTSD topic is incredibly boring.

This Mel Gibson news is huge. I wouldn't mind if they chilled on a Batman movie for a while until they can get it right. There's less baggage with these smaller characters like Deadshot or Black Adam. It might be good to let filmmakers just run wild with these properties. They won't get the same blowback that anyone would making a Batman or Superman movie because the expectations for the character aren't ingrained into people's minds in the same way.

I feel like all of this could be building towards a Justice League vs the Legion of Doom movie. Think about how huge that could be.

We already have a sick foundation for the team...

Lex Luthor: Jesse Eisenberg
The Joker: Jared Leto
Harley Quinn: Margot Robbie
Deathstroke: Joe Manganiello
Black Manta: Yahya Abdul-Mateen II
Black Adam: Dwayne Johnson
Deadshot: Will Smith

Look at that cast compared to the Justice League, it's funny that they're spending a lot more money on the villains than the heroes. The only big name on the Justice League is Affleck and he's probably on his way out

It seems clear that the intention going forward is to focus on the villains. I'd bet that the heroes are going to take a backseat until they can figure out how to do them justice. Until then, we'll be getting villain movies like Gotham City Sirens, Suicide Squad 2, and Black Adam.

Hopefully the Deadshot movie that's in the works is just consolidated into the Suicide Squad sequel. No need for a solo Deadshot movie, just make him the lead character in SS2.

 

[misslane38]

I'm so conflicted about the Mel Gibson thing.

He's a great filmmaker, and I'd like to believe in second chances. However, it is very difficult for me to get past Gibson's past behavior. I'm also not sure how I feel about a guy doing a movie just so he can prove something about the genre and its filmmaking that would, in a way, be a way to prove something about himself.

I know it is difficult for others as well. A lot of responses to the news on social media were that it would make them less likely to see the movie. Like Woody Allen or Roman Polanski, Mel Gibson is controversial and disliked, and for good reason. Taken together, while I'd love someone of his talent and profile working on a DC film, who he is as a person makes me prefer they choose someone else.