All Things Superman: An Open Discussion (Spoilers) - - - - - - - - Part 88

[ConnorKon-El]

We getting Blu-Ray in October ? Sweet !

 

[SpideyFan866]

Subjectively, I loved Man of Steel. I thought it was very entertaining and it delivered the type of action I always wanted in a Superman film and that I was honestly looking for in in this film.

Objectively,....... I thought it was a technical mess. It had badly written dialogue, horribly and shockingly underdeveloped characters, choppy editing (Due to the, obviously, large amount of footage cut), and it relies far too much on the viewer having preexisting love and/or knowledge of the characters.

On a side note,

Perry/Steve/Jenny were poorly developed. Then, they're put in a blatant situation that supposedly showcases the human tragedy during this apocalyptic sitution. But as the faces of this, they're not well developed, so I don't give a ****. They have no place in any sub plot, they have no bearing on the fate of any of the main characters and are generally just there because two of them exist in the comic books. They're glorified name dropping.

Yes, Perry acts as the moral compass for Lois Lane, but let's be honest, she didn't need that. She was a good person anyway. He was just there to spout the 'what would the world do if there was such an alien amongst us?' question to the audience. But the awful truth is that such a question is impossible to answer. And worst still, the film itself doesn't answer it because it doesn't hold a proverbial mic to the world and ask that question. So why bother throwing the dialogue in? Because it's deep!



You're either intentional being stupid about what I said or missing the point. The point is after Zod dies, we cut to Clark throwing a drone at a General's feet with a smile on his face and then talking to his mother about the wonderful adventure he just had. Clark then gets a job at the Daily Planet. The Daily Planet where three folks were supposed to be in mortal danger but seem absolutely happy now. No looking into the aftermath and no consideration of even what's happened.

It puts it front and center for the spectacle and then throws it away. Why? You tell me! Was it because it served its spectacular blockbuster action purpose? Was it because the filmmakers were trying to show them all moving on? You tell me! Actually don't. We'll disagree anyway.



So hold on. You're one minute telling me to feel the plight of the characters and then you're pulling out the 'they're movie characters' card? Just don't. I would logically care for these characters because that's what I do. I go into a cinema, I watch a film and I invest the two or three hours into watching the characters play out this life and hope to hell it all works out for them. I care for them. If you don't, that's your issue. I do. And if I don't, I ask myself why.



Look, whether you want to acknowledge to it or not, there's writers behind this. It's not a documentary. As a result the film can be written to address different facets of a character or subject to ensure the most serviceable rendition. In my eyes, and this maybe only in my eyes, this film intentionally decided to put Clark in such a situation and specifically so in his early days. So that it would be interesting to see what organic developments such a scenario would yield.

And that's fine. But here's the problem. Despite desiring this, the majority of the film felt contrived to a point that the situations did not develop organically. Instead certain mandates and sequences were shoehorned in. Particularly regarding action. As a result, the feel they were going for became less and less authentic or realistic as they went along. It strayed into generic blockbuster territory and descended from a potentially great film with flaws to an okay film with major flaws.

Why? Because to me if a film is truly great, I'll forgive the occasional weird bits. But if the film as a finished product suffers from major problems, then those flaws become more visible. It's really not hard to understand.



I don't disagree that Superman is saving the world. But the truth is it's a broad stroke. It's the world. It's not the people. The people have no identity. The world has no identity. Look at Chris Nolan's Gotham. It has an identity. More so, you know people in that city. Good or bad. Not just in the final film but even the first one. It builds the city as something worth saving despite its flaws. Here the world is given as a granted of 'come on, he's saving the world'.

So? I want to go into a film and root for the good guy and feel good when he saves people and like the people he's saving too. Here? Meh. That's the word. Sure, he should save them, but it's just because he has to. He has no other choice. The entire film talks about choice but the truth is Clark is just put in situations where he has to do stuff. That's not a glowing endorsement for choice but a force fed implication of having a 'destiny'.

You spoke about me wanting this film to be written like the other Superman films. So? Superman Returns had a lot of things going for it and a lot of things going against it. But it definitely got the actual actions of Superman right. He protected the world and saved it to when needed. It was the other bits it got wrong. The other two got almost all of it right within the context of the times they were made in.

I have no doubt that if Richard Donner were to have made Superman films in this time, he'd have made two fantastic movies all over again. But that's a discussion that can go on forever. You and I see the film differently. That's fine. But I'll say this in the nicest way possible. Stop condescending. I saw what I saw and I didn't like it. You saw what you saw and liked it. Fine. Just stop implying that everyone who disliked the film or has criticisms of the film are idiots who don't get it.

For me, the film's the ultimate experience in heavy handedness. From its philosophy, to its drama, to its action. It's all over the top and broad strokes whilst ignoring the innate details of what makes Superman and his world tick. It tries to undo that all and create this world that's bleak and deals more with enduring through the worst of times than aspiring for the best of times. And that's even though Jor-El talks about reaching for the sun and accomplishing wonders. Superman and the values behind the character is standing up for the weak and making the world a better place. He didn't do that here. Why? Because the filmmakers wanted to showcase a destruction scenario where Superman's forced to make difficult decisions. That's fine.

But the irony is that every decision he makes is foreshadowed by someone or the other and made by someone or the other. Jonathan Kent tells him he has to make a decision one day to stand proud in front of the world but needs to hide till then. So he does exactly that. Worse still, he keeps doing it long after his father dies. Sixteen years to be precise. Then he bumps into Jor-El. He tells him to go save people and be the guy who to lead them into the Sun. He puts on a suit and goes flying. But before he can or can't do that, trouble comes calling. So that mission's put on hold. But regardless, he's told that the time is right. He doesn't decide for himself. He just gets told. Then the priest tells him to take a leap of faith. So he does. Then he goes and 'saves' the world by punching everything. Then he faces off Zod at the end who says 'you'll have to kill me to stop me'. So he does.

I'm not being funny, but for a hero who's strength is in an infallible moral code, compassion and in the sense of what's right, he has to be told an awful lot of what to do and not to do. Worse still, I'm not entirely sure that if such a character existed, that I'd trust him. He's the least decisive and mature person around. He has to get told everything. Do this. Do that. Don't do this. Don't do that. Bleh. He's not Superman. He's a manchild in a suit who then at the end of the film, gets a job.

At its best, it's a coming of age film with alien as the protagonist. At its worst, it's a clunking action adventure that ignores the sense of unbridled joy of seeing a man fly and focuses on the bleak nature of disaster striking a planet. A planet that only fell into dangers because of said alien. Good job.



I actually enjoyed watching them. Even when I had sky high expectations. The characters weren't bastardized to satisfy a 'modern audience' and weren't 'revamped' to make anything 'cool' again. They were great films that grounded themselves in realism without then mocking themselves by creating outlandish and illogical situations that stretch and change the character. They were great. This wasn't.

This guy speaks truth.

 

[ConnorKon-El]

Technical wise, only thing that bothered me was how shaky the camera was in certain scenes.most noticeably the scene where Johnathan talks to Clark by pickup truck.

 

[Mysteryman]

oct 1 st awesome can't wait ! ...saw it again today ! loved it ! i wanna marry faora!

That could potentially be one very rough Honeymoon.

 

[Super Kal]

Home release by October 1st: http://video.fnac.com/a6148822/Man-...-Blu-Ray-3D-2D-Statue-Michael-Shannon-Blu-Ray

i cant wait

 

[Brother Jack]

The movie is not paced very well which is a problem in other Snyder movies, especially Watchmen. The flashbacks had some great moments but they stuck out and slowed the narrative. I kind of wish it was structured linearly. It invoked the first act of Batman Begins to me, and clearly this movie was meant as a quasi-equivalent of that film for Superman, but Nolan is much more adept at handling nonlinear narrative and pacing.

 

[MydnightPhoenix]

I must say I was let down, by the talk of the last bit of action going on too long. I was really getting into the ZvS fight and it was amazing to watch, then next thing I know Supes has him in a headlock and I'm thinking "WTF is that it!?" It seemed to last less than 5 mins, don't know why people are complaining. I could have gone for another 10 myself.

 

[Project862006]

i think that post is utter bull crap and i agree with guard if you need to be emotionally connected on an intimate level with every single side character to feel for their danger is quite ridiculous

in real life if you saw someone in danger would you feel no fear or sadness for them because well you know i dont know them

 

[Hammer!]

If you don't feel sadness for Perry White and his buddies at the DP, then the script did them a great disservice.

 

[TheFlamingCoco]

^ I felt sad for them, but I don't think they were well defined. I think Jonah should write most of the sequel.

 

[Hammer!]

^ I felt sad for them, but I don't think they were well defined. I think Jonah should write most of the sequel.

So basically you felt obliged to feel sad for them, especially since one is a major player in the comics. Pretty much that is what Goyer was going for.

 

[TheFlamingCoco]

^ No, because they were human.

 

[Lencho01]

i think that post is utter bull crap and i agree with guard if you need to be emotionally connected on an intimate level with every single side character to feel for their danger is quite ridiculous

in real life if you saw someone in danger would you feel no fear or sadness for them because well you know i dont know them

Eh, I think BlueLantern makes a good point though. The way that scene is set up is that we're supposed to care not so much because they're in danger, but because of who the characters are as if we know them. If they did the same scene with any random Metropolis extra, it would be even harder to pull the right chords they wanted for the audience. I feel the actors, especially Buller elevated the scene.

 

[Wontkins]

I might have to watch this movie again because the only thing I got from the first viewing was.... DAMN Antje Traue is SMOKING. 10/10 would procreate with

 

[craigdbfan]

She is incredibly attractive. Definitely one of the most memorable characters of any recent superhero movie. I really did enjoy watching her on screen. /creepertone

 

[Wontkins]

She gave a very strong performance, and was definitely one of the highlights of the movie. Plus her face is just...wow. Strong jawline, nice cheekbones, cute little cleft in her chin, she's got great bone structure in her face... and don't get me started on that body. Superman and Zod fought in their skintight rubber suits, I was a little disappointed Faora didn't a chance to take off the armour,lol

 

[craigdbfan]

She gave a very strong performance, and was definitely one of the highlights of the movie. Plus her face is just...wow. Strong jawline, nice cheekbones, cute little cleft in her chin, she's got great bone structure in her face... and don't get me started on that body. Superman and Zod fought in their skintight rubber suits, I was a little disappointed Faora didn't a chance to take off the armour,lol

Ditto.

 

[Pickleweasel]

Eh, I think BlueLantern makes a good point though. The way that scene is set up is that we're supposed to care not so much because they're in danger, but because of who the characters are as if we know them. If they did the same scene with any random Metropolis extra, it would be even harder to pull the right chords they wanted for the audience. I feel the actors, especially Buller elevated the scene.

You act like the film makers were complete idiots. Even with that scene Jenny and Lombard had like 4 lines each in the movie. The movie was not about them. The family at the end had no lines in the movie, no character development. Were people really sitting there saying I don't care if these people get sawed in half their characters were not developed enough?

I had feelings when Jonathan died, when Jor-El died, and when Zod died and I didn't want Colonel Hardy to get it either when Faora was about to off him

I don't see why every single character needs to be perfectly developed. Especially when you are planning on making sequels.

 

[SheikhooMan]

went to see the movie today and LOVED IT Holy Zod was this movie great !!! loved the pace loved the characters, Cavill was awesome, Zod was great, Faora was hot( i live in germany but i dont think Antje did the german dub for Faora) the 3D looked good, i hate 3D but it looked good and the Action on a big screen... WOW WOW WOW !!! i was so sad the fight was over. I wanted even more. Couldnt get enough and the music. The whole theater was shaking from the bass when Superman was flying up the World engine. Hans Zimmer is a music god.



looking forward to the blu ray now . Want to see as much behind the scenes stuff as possible.

and i`m happy to be part of the current $345M. Worldwide

Agreed with everything you said.

Spoiler

That scene with Superman flying up to the world engine against the gravity beam is my favourite as well as when Superman falls after trying to fly the first time and then gets up with the Russel Crowe voice and music it was so awesome.

 

[BlueLantern]

The Irony of this statement is threatening to make my head explode!

How is it ironic? I haven't ever said that Thor's a better character than Superman or Iron Man is better than Batman. I've quite explicitly stayed away from comparing a Marvel film to a DC film. I've only ever ranked origin stories overall, tone aside. I'd suggest you look up irony because that's not what is making your head explode.

"They were great films that grounded themselves in realism without then mocking themselves by creating outlandish and illogical situations that stretch and change the character. They were great. This wasn't."

I would argue that having Batman quit and having Lucius do all the technological work and not having a true Robin storyline changes the character, but maybe that's just me. And one adaptational missed opportunity shouldn't justify another

I think Batman quitting is questionable but a fairly reasonable circumstance given that Gotham didn't need him anymore and how much he lost. Furthermore, within the context of the world that Chris Nolan created, I'm more welcoming of him having a Q like character than him being some genius who can do everything. The last one I'll give you but like I said, great films can get by with some flaws since the overall product vastly outweighs the negatives.

i think that post is utter bull crap and i agree with guard if you need to be emotionally connected on an intimate level with every single side character to feel for their danger is quite ridiculous

in real life if you saw someone in danger would you feel no fear or sadness for them because well you know i dont know them

Good job on respecting people's opinions. I've already explained my position. Chances are you didn't even read it given your severe myopia.

However, something I didn't mention is the contradiction in the points made by people defending this movie. When people like myself I have bemoaned the lack of scenes showing Superman protecting the innocent during this war or the amount of collateral damage, it got thrown in our faces. We got told that this was war and there was going to be collateral damage. Showing Superman feel pain over not being able to save individuals at the expense of him saving the world is stupid. It's about the big picture! So why should I care about three folk stuck in the rubble? Three folk who are supposed to be well developed within their own right, but aren't? Surely, they're just collateral damage? Oh that's right, because the filmmakers want me to. So they pull every trick out of the bag to try and make me feel. It's ridiculously contrived.

Now given that I'm not alien to such tropes, I'll bite and understand what they're doing. But it doesn't work. By using such a blatant reference of the 9/11 attacks, they lose points. By putting characters we know into it, the scene is even worse in its execution. Those characters aren't strangers but I should feel no more pain for them than the family at the end given the work put in to develop them. Also given the contradictory messages conveyed of 'this is war!' but 'feel sorry for the Planeteers because we want you too!' and then back to 'this is war!' its all too mushy. Hey, you know the humans are utter cannon fodder in this film so far, let's throw in a human element. Let's use the Planeteers and 9/11 to make people cry! No. It didn't work on me.

I was also probably supposed to think 'I sure hope Superman destroys the World Engine before it hits them', I wasn't. Because there's no chance that he won't achieve it. So the only thing left is to feel sorry for the characters I knew and what they must be going through. Because they're in danger. Their life flashing before my eyes and all that. All their best scenes appearing before me in a collage or montage. But wait, they had no best scenes since they're about as valuable as extras at this point. Apart from the great product placement Jenny facilitated. Nokia says thanks, Jenny. Maybe in the sequel she'll switch to Blackberry when Lex buys Nokia?

The family at the end had no lines in the movie, no character development. Were people really sitting there saying I don't care if these people get sawed in half their characters were not developed enough?

I don't see why every single character needs to be perfectly developed. Especially when you are planning on making sequels.

You know that's a valid point regarding the family, but the situation is different. Zod's the last Kryptonian, Superman is right there and holding him, the family is backed into a corner. He can protect them from Zod. If he lets Zod kill them, their blood is on his hands. If he kills Zod, there's no surviving Kryptonian that he knows of. That's all the major subtext. The basic truth is that Zod wants to kill them to torture Clark. They're a revenge crime. They're not just casualties of war or collateral damage.

Regarding the latter point, no. What if the movie was a financial failure like Green Lantern and this was the only one made? Would you then say that they were hoping for sequels so that's why those characters were nonsensically developed. There's a term for people who rely on things that aren't guaranteed. Idiots.

 

[sf2]

Subjectively, I loved Man of Steel. I thought it was very entertaining and it delivered the type of action I always wanted in a Superman film and that I was honestly looking for in in this film.

Objectively,....... I thought it was a technical mess. It had badly written dialogue, horribly and shockingly underdeveloped characters, choppy editing (Due to the, obviously, large amount of footage cut), and it relies far too much on the viewer having preexisting love and/or knowledge of the characters.

On a side note,




This guy speaks truth.

watch it in IMAX 3D, u will find it more complete and perfect! you wouldn't complaint the thing you listed above. u would understand the story more!!!

 

[SpideyFan866]

watch it in IMAX 3D, u will find it more complete and perfect! you wouldn't complaint the thing you listed above. u would understand the story more!!!

I seriously doubt it.

 

[BlueLantern]

watch it in IMAX 3D, u will find it more complete and perfect! you wouldn't complaint the thing you listed above. u would understand the story more!!!

How would watching the same film on a bigger screen with 3D glasses change the story? How? Seriously. How?

 

[shallbecomeabat]

Something I thought about today. The criticism of this Superman in MOS and all the damage/lack of caring etc and comparing him to older incarnations. Even by critics in their reviews.

Yet, I seem to remember in Superman 2 that he gave up his powers to be with a woman. He virtually stuck two fingers up to the whole reason he was sent to Earth to be with Lois, for his own selfish reasons. He decided not to help anymore because he wanted Lois.

Now, I know which version of the character I would rather pin my hopes on. And it isn't the one in the red undies.

Next to that he also killed Zod in Superman 2. He depowers him and the other two Kryptonians and shoves them down into the chasm in the fortress. Ok, you don't see them die, but he still killed them. Somehow, this is not a problem. And don't get me started on the whole bunch of new superpowers Supes has in that movie... what a ****flick. Never understood the love for that one and don't get the hate for MoS. For me it was one of the best superhero movies EVER. It moved me, made me laugh, smile, cry and care for the characters. It was near perfect and I am a Superman fan since more than 20 years.

 

[BlueLantern]

Max Landis on Superman.