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This is a continuation thread, the old thread is [split]461545[/split]
He will have a co-writer for WF.
Snyder.
In an age when every second critics suggests michael bay thinks his audience to be stupid.But if the movie makes it necessary for the audience to do that then the movie missed something.
A seasoned commando? Batman invaded a city full of innocent people with an atomic bomb on the loose. In the midst of all this, people were dying(good and bad). He should not only know better(batman wouldn't follow a micheal bay battle plan) but he should be visually upset about this situation, instead he spends his time yelling threats at the bad guy.Different contexts. A seasoned urban commando leading a rebel assault against enemy occupiers is different then a newbie superhero suddenly finding himself waist deep in 9/11 imagery. Especially because the battle of gotham had nowhere near the level of destruction that the end fight in MoS had.
There are alot of tine things that come together to convey who he is, you are implying that we forget all of that in the absence of a line utterance?That's not how movies work. Just the tiniest thing can completely change a scene or even a whole film. One line of dialogue, one properly framed shot, one musical cue, one little anything can be that extra nugget of information that completely changes how an audience reacts to a scene. A movie is made up of thousands of tiny things coming together in subtle ways, not big interchangeable components.
And another thing, is it possible to make Batman relevant and a badass in a film with Superman without making Superman look bad?
Yes.
What was a huge complaint about Snyder's style post DAWN OF THE DEAD? It was the over use of slow mo and the artificial green screen environments in his follow up films. Was what he did with MOS with it's emphasis on speed, both in specific action sequences and the overall pace of the narrative a reaction on his part to all that criticism?
Do you all think the vocal group a detractors will have an effect?
And will they even like it if they get what they want?
Will the GA want what the genre fans are asking for?
In an age when every second critics suggests michael bay thinks his audience to be stupid.
I think not.
A seasoned commando? Batman invaded a city full of innocent people with an atomic bomb on the loose. In the midst of all this, people were dying(good and bad). He should not only know better(batman wouldn't follow a micheal bay battle plan) but he should be visually upset about this situation, instead he spends his time yelling threats at the bad guy.
A newbie superhero facing armageddon with stakes bane could only dream of. I think if batman can be assertive in his situation, this superman has a little room to be business first in his. That being said, his concern was clearly shown after zods threats.
There are alot of tine things that come together to convey who he is, you are implying that we forget all of that in the absence of a line utterance?
I agree that a small thing perhaps can change alot. If superman made a might fight joke the way any of the avengers did during their calamity in the thrid act, I can see why people would think he's just as bad as they are, but the lack of such a line doesn't say all that much imo. It's a safe assumption that superman could have have as well been thinking all of these things.
Here's a thought, what is there to say to a man that just gave Zod's speech? "Please the people?"
Not sure that would do much given what zod was all about not but 4 hours earlier, but then again, maybe we should re-watch the final plea deal superman gives the man at the end there.
Last I heard Goyer was responsible for the begins script, which in many circles is considered gold, in the realm of cbm scripts.
The guy who wrote Sucker Punch and managed to make one of the most beautiful and thoughtful superhero comics ever written sound kind of stupid and juvenile?
I sure as hell hope that they take this route. If Goyer and Snyder want to prove to their detractors that they're better writers than what most give them credit for, they need to avoid falling into the standard cliches and easy routes that end up damaging the film more than helping it.
We're not asking for a perfect script, but at least give us a great/excellent one.
And I hope that they officially clarify on what this film is considered as, whether it's officially a MOS 2 but with Batman, or an entirely different film, ala World's Finest.
This almost feels like the situation with X-Men: Days of Future's Past, where some were disappointed that they weren't going to continue with the main story line established at the end of First Class, and instead, do a severe time jump, in more ways than one, thus preventing people from seeing the needed and necessary evolution and development that needed to be explored for the characters.
I don't understand what that has to do with anything.
Yeah, but none of that disproves my point that Batman is a seasoned veteran at that point while Superman in Man of Steel isn't. Also he wasn't seeing first hand dozens of buildings imploding all around him. They're different contexts.
But the problem is that it wasn't shown during the threat. And there's no reason not to show it during the threat.
No. I'm not implying that forgetting has anything to do with this. I'm saying that in that scene Superman acts like he doesn't care about the destruction going on around him and that's weird and one line of dialogue and one reaction shot would have fixed that.
The Avengers weren't bad at all. In fact, they acknowledged and reacted to potential civilian casualties, which Superman didn't do at all. And yes, I know, The Avengers had more of an opportunity to save civilians, but my point is that there were moments on screen that showed that they were thinking about it. Even if Superman didn't have the opportunity to personally save innocent people, it's weird that it doesn't seem to be something that's crossing his mind at that moment.
It's not that we forget that he was established as a good guy already. It's that we expect an established good guy to continue to act like a good guy in such a situation. It's really weird when someone established to care about innocent lives doesn't react to dozens of buildings imploding all around him.
Yes, we are able to remember to earlier in the film and fill in the gaps and assume that he's thinking about that stuff, but the fact that he isn't reacting like a person who cares is a flaw in the filmmaking. Especially because such reactions wouldn't have been detrimental to the film, so there's no reason for the filmmakers to choose not to include them.
It wouldn't do much. But we're not talking about what would logically have the most practical outcome in that situation. We're talking about Superman's reaction. Sure, practically, in the context of the events of the film, Superman pleading for people's lives wouldn't have done anything. But it would have been a natural reaction from Superman in that situation and it would have demonstrated to the audience that both Superman and the filmmakers still care.
Ultimately, that's the problem with the last fight sequence. It's not just that Superman doesn't seem to care about the death toll around him. It's that the movie doesn't seem to care. It's showing us the spectacle of this big badass fight scene, but we know from relatively recent history that there are probably people in those buildings and the movie doesn't seem to care because it's too focused on the punching. That's what makes people uncomfortable.
I wouldn't be worried. If there is one thing I am not worried about when it comes to this movie, it is the way in which the characters are characterized and adapted. Goyer and Snyder are both giant comic book nerds. Until I see any news that I would consider to be a red flag, I have faith they will portray the characters as accurately as possible. I thought Superman himself in MOS was great. He was very much like John Byrne's Superman to me, which I loved. He was a larger-than-life God but at the same time, they established that he was human on the inside before he was a Kryptonian. As for Batman, I'm looking forward to finally seeing Batman in all his might and glory. All the live-action versions of Batman have been watered down so far nor have they had a more comic book costume or any fantastic action scenes. With Snyder, we might finally get the world's greatest detective in a black-and-grey suit in fantastic fight scenes and all that other great stuff. We might even get the definitive Batman actor similar to Reeve/RDJ. Even if the story sucks monkey diarrhea, at least there is that to look forward to. t:
I'm pretty sure it is meant to be a WF film as opposed to MOS 2. They had the Superman/Batman logo together at Comic Con and Goyer even said that "Superman vs. Batman" and "Batman vs. Superman" are currently being thrown around as title ideas. It may be a sequel to MOS though in the same way Iron Man 3 is a sequel to Avengers. One is an Avengers movie and the other is an Iron Man movie but the events in Avengers played a major part in Iron Man 3.
To be honest, I still think this is too rushed. MOS was more of a setup film and Clark just got at the DP. Lex Luthor still has to be introduced. Batman has yet to be introduced in his own movie. This seems a lot more like a business decision than a creative/storytelling decision. Now, does this mean this is a bad idea? No. Is the movie doomed to be bad? No. Does it necessarily mean that the story will feel forced due to it being released this early? No. At the same time though, this was by no means a good idea.
Seeing as its Snyder and Goyer and their approach seems to be "awesome" over complex story I do however hope we get a live action Batman who lives up to his "World's Greatest Detective" name.
This aspect however I'm not convinced we'll get here...
Goyer and Snyder could do a great job (Goyer's BB , TDK, TDKR and MOS it's masterpiece) and Snyder directing (300, watchmen, MOS) maybe Nolan and JOna Nolan are going to take a look and pulish Goyer's work...
I think pacing would be a similar concern in World's Finest, because there are so many awesome moments needed.
Batman will have his individual badass and awesome moment, so will Superman. Then the inevitable tangle moment between the two. Not to forget setting the villain up awesomely to show how much of a threat he is to these two. And of course the big climatic battle.
It's gonna be a 3-hour trailer if fine storytelling is absent.
I think pacing would be a similar concern in World's Finest, because there are so many awesome moments needed.
Even if MOS3 did go back to being a pure Superman solo film, I'm still disappointed that we're not going to get a finite piece on the Superman mythology and an actual ending. Instead we're entering MCU serialization territory, where just like RDJ; Amy Adams, Lawrence Fishbourne, and whoever are just going to be ****ed out until they're too old. Instead of story pieces that have a resounding stamp on the character and finality to them we're just going to perpetual DCU filims forever that just keep returning to the 'quo' like a sitcom. This disappoints me no end.
Even if MOS3 did go back to being a pure Superman solo film, I'm still disappointed that we're not going to get a finite piece on the Superman mythology and an actual ending. Instead we're entering MCU serialization territory, where just like RDJ; Amy Adams, Lawrence Fishbourne, and whoever are just going to be ****ed out until they're too old. Instead of story pieces that have a resounding stamp on the character and finality to them we're just going to perpetual DCU filims forever that just keep returning to the 'quo' like a sitcom. This disappoints me no end.