All Things Wonder Woman: An Open Discussion - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Part 24

[Verick808]

Eh, just because they are forced to use lesser VFX studios, doesn't mean the CGI suddenly isn't inferior. A flaw you can't avoid including is still a flaw.

Agreed. The VFX took me out of the final act a bit. It was the only part that really suffered because of it though. The no man's land scene is going to go up there with some of my favorite superhero action scenes.

 

[X Knight]

S1 of Supergirl waaaay OTT with that stuff, but I didn't think it was nearly as bad about it in S2. I adored Agent Carter, but I agree it would occasionally go overboard with it too.

But yes, Wonder Woman handled its "girl power" perfectly, imo.

yeah, S1 of Supergirl went way too much with that stuff.

And S2 was going fine until Cat showed up in the final few eps. Then it just all came roaring back.

WW proved you just don't need to do any of that stuff.

 

[X Knight]

Agreed. The VFX took me out of the final act a bit. It was the only part that really suffered because of it though. The no man's land scene is going to go up there with some of my favorite superhero action scenes.

The No Man's Land Scene was epic. Great "hero intro."

and about the VFX/CGI, the only time it really took me out was when she was lassoing the badguys in town and ping-ponging them around.

that's really the only time it felt to fake or "video gamey" to me.

 

[X Knight]

Agreed. On second viewing I really appreciated the dialogue more, and how it re-enforced the overall themes. I think it's actually one of the tighter screenplays for a CBM, at least when it comes to origin films. And yes, the friend I saw it with the 2nd time around immediately said it reminded him of Superman: The Movie, both in its story structure and general spirit.

didn't the director say that Superman: The Movie was an inspiration for this?

now if only we could get a modern Superman movie that captured the spirit of Superman: The Movie.

 

[TheFlamingCoco]

I think we can now that Goeff Johns is in charge of the DCEU. I honestly think Superman should be about his relationship between the world and Metropolis and should include more flashbacks of life growing up on the farm.

It's not so much as who he fights as much as what he's fighting for. I think that's what WonderWoman gets right that MOS doesn't.

 

[jaymes_e06]

Superman Returns certainly tried to no avail.

 

[Thome216]

It keeps getting better with each viewing.

Truer words never before said!

And that article about the 'Disney Princess' aspect was pretty spot on to. Probably a good reason why I liked it so much!t:

Spoiler

...though in all Disney Princess movies, the Prince doesn't die... Tangled I think would have been good either way though, even if Flynn had died in the end.

Seeing it again just brings out the sweet moments, as even ones that were a little cringy for me have matured and become adorable. Case in point...

Spoiler

When Diana has taken the German trench and she sees the bell tower of Veld in the distance, she turns and shouts, 'Steve, let's go!' before bounding up into the sky.

I cringed a little at that at first.

But I now I see it for what it is. Innocents. In that moment, Diana is very much like any child playing with friends. And I don't mean to downplay the importance by comparing it to child's play. But, they've taken the enemy 'fort' and the true goal of the game is in sight. She was now living her heartfelt dream, helping the innocent and battling the good fight - and she wanted to do it with her friends... she was exuberant.

Going to watch it again...

 

[Micromind]

yeah, S1 of Supergirl went way too much with that stuff.

And S2 was going fine until Cat showed up in the final few eps. Then it just all came roaring back.

WW proved you just don't need to do any of that stuff.

Do you think that people expect Wonder Woman to follow such approach towards feminism (Like, Supergirl S1 and Agent Carter), which is why many are avoiding to watch it in theaters ?

 

[TheFlamingCoco]

SR was the equivalent of a milk dud. Sweet, but kind of bitter.

SR tried to give Superman that kind of hope but was wrapped up in nostalgia for its own sake, rather
than a genuine sense of mythological reverence. Add in the kind of depressed tone and a complete lack of physical fighting and it just makes Superman to look like an alien with romance issues, rather than than one who is a human on earth who happens to have an alien body.

MOS started to have that optimism with the flying scene, but as soon as Zod enters the picture it becomes SMASHFORMERS 2000.

 

[flickchick85]

didn't the director say that Superman: The Movie was an inspiration for this?

now if only we could get a modern Superman movie that captured the spirit of Superman: The Movie.

That's the dream!

And yes, Patty did cite Superman: The Movie as one of her inspirations, just as every superhero origin film director seems to do, lol. But that influence was felt here more than in any others, imo.

 

[Dark Raven]

Truer words never before said!

And that article about the 'Disney Princess' aspect was pretty spot on to. Probably a good reason why I liked it so much!t:

Spoiler

...though in all Disney Princess movies, the Prince doesn't die... Tangled I think would have been good either way though, even if Flynn had died in the end.

Seeing it again just brings out the sweet moments, as even ones that were a little cringy for me have matured and become adorable. Case in point...

Spoiler

When Diana has taken the German trench and she sees the bell tower of Veld in the distance, she turns and shouts, 'Steve, let's go!' before bounding up into the sky.

I cringed a little at that at first.

But I now I see it for what it is. Innocents. In that moment, Diana is very much like any child playing with friends. And I don't mean to downplay the importance by comparing it to child's play. But, they've taken the enemy 'fort' and the true goal of the game is in sight. She was now living her heartfelt dream, helping the innocent and battling the good fight - and she wanted to do it with her friends... she was exuberant.

Going to watch it again...

I think the

Spoiler

snow fall scene is a bit like the lantern scene in Tangled. It's like they see each other for the first time. WW could almost have been a musical.

 

[misslane38]

It's not so much as who he fights as much as what he's fighting for. I think that's what WonderWoman gets right that MOS doesn't.

MoS shows us a Superman who fought for the little guy and defended even the bullies before he was even Superman. He saved children from drowning, oil rig workers from fiery death, and a young woman from sexual harassment. It showed us a Superman who risked exposure by saving the life of a well-known journalist. Superman saved the lives of the citizens of Smallville and the soldiers who do not yet know that he was "not [their] enemy." When he learned that the World Engine would weaken him, Superman's response was to say, "I'm not about to let that stop me from trying." He risked his life to stop the terraforming that was ravaging Metropolis on the other side of the globe. His efforts saved everyone, including Perry, Jenny, and Steve.

Moving beyond MoS to BvS, Clark fought for the poor and disenfranchised in Gotham, including even the city's criminals who were living in fear of The Batman's reign of terror. Superman fought for a little girl dying in a fire in Juarez. He even saved the life of Lex Luthor who would have died at the fist of his own abomination had Superman not intervened.

Superman is fighting for his world -- our world -- to be a symbol of hope and a force for good. It's a cause he was willing to die for, and he did. Wonder Woman AND Man of Steel were both beautiful and powerful origin stories for their titular heroes because they both revealed the heart of their heroes through their actions and their choices.

 

[X Knight]

MoS shows us a Superman who fought for the little guy and defended even the bullies before he was even Superman. He saved children from drowning, oil rig workers from fiery death, and a young woman from sexual harassment. It showed us a Superman who risked exposure by saving the life of a well-known journalist. Superman saved the lives of the citizens of Smallville and the soldiers who do not yet know that he was "not [their] enemy." When he learned that the World Engine would weaken him, Superman's response was to say, "I'm not about to let that stop me from trying." He risked his life to stop the terraforming that was ravaging Metropolis on the other side of the globe. His efforts saved everyone, including Perry, Jenny, and Steve.

Moving beyond MoS to BvS, Clark fought for the poor and disenfranchised in Gotham, including even the city's criminals who were living in fear of The Batman's reign of terror. Superman fought for a little girl dying in a fire in Juarez. He even saved the life of Lex Luthor who would have died at the fist of his own abomination had Superman not intervened.

Superman is fighting for his world -- our world -- to be a symbol of hope and a force for good. It's a cause he was willing to die for, and he did. Wonder Woman AND Man of Steel were both beautiful and powerful origin stories for their titular heroes because they both revealed the heart of their heroes through their actions and their choices.

I don't disagree with any of that.

but with MOS and BvS, there was this lack of heart and warmth which WW had.

with DCEU Superman, there's just this sense of "detachment" and "aloofness" which doesn't suit the character, imo.

yes, Superman saves people and yes he did noble things and yes he did care for people. But the way Snyder portrayed him in the films just lacked that "something," that intangible whatever, that I felt from WW.

 

[TheFlamingCoco]

I don't disagree with any of that.

but with MOS and BvS, there was this lack of heart and warmth which WW had.

with DCEU Superman, there's just this sense of "detachment" and "aloofness" which doesn't suit the character, imo.

yes, Superman saves people and yes he did noble things and yes he did care for people. But the way Snyder portrayed him in the films just lacked that "something," that intangible whatever, that I felt from WW.

I think a difference is that Superman's too worried about how he fits in with the world, while WW cares more about how the world itself is doing.

 

[danoyse]

Saw it for the 3rd time tonight. Gets better with every viewing...

 

[X Knight]

That's the dream!

And yes, Patty did cite Superman: The Movie as one of her inspirations, just as every superhero origin film director seems to do, lol. But that influence was felt here more than in any others, imo.

I agree.

a question though.

does the world know that Diana Prince and WW are one and the same?

Diana doesn't wear a mask as WW, and while she did have the glasses early on in civilian clothes, she doesn't wear that in her modern dress.

And I'm sure Diana's exploits during the war were well known and there's even a photograph of her.

so, I'm pretty sure the people during the war period knew about her and her "beyond normal" abilities.

but what about the present day?

come to think of it, that's one of the reasons why WW should have gone first in the DCEU, cuz it kind of undercuts the premise of MOS.

MOS was essentially about "first contact" with aliens. As Pa Kent felt, the world wasn't ready to learn the truth about Clark and what he could do.

But the world had already experienced a demi-goddess who could chuck a tank and level a tower with a punch and who battled with a god.

Did the world gradually forget about WW's existence after the war?

 

[Flemm]

There's been a lot of speculation and discussion about the questions you raise.

I think many of them remain ambiguous at this point. A lot will depend on the choices made in JL and then a WW sequel.

There are differing opinions about how well WW matches up with what we saw in BvS, and in MoS prior to that.

 

[X Knight]

I think a difference is that Superman's too worried about how he fits in with the world, while WW cares more about how the world itself is doing.

there should be a balance between the two.

fitting in is part of Superman's story, but it shouldn't be the driving factor that overshadows other aspects and "subdues" the warmth and compassion the character should exude.

I just think there were quite a few missed opportunities in MOS.

like the Tornado scene.

It should have been Clark out there rescuing a child left behind, not Pa Kent. Pa initially says he'll go, but Clark rushes right into the tornado because that's his natural instinct to save people. Clark is in middle of rescuing the child when he super hears/sees Pa Kent ( who's back with Martha under the bridge ) having a heart attack. Pa knows his son would come for him, but puts out his hand to stop Clark. Pa wants Clark to focus on saving the child - he sees the hero he always knew his son would become.

Clark is torn, but the tornado is right above him, so he dives down and shields the child with his body. When the tornado passes and the dust clears, Clark walks with, clothes tattered, but holding the child safe in his arms. Yeah, the town would know his secret, but by then I think they already knew. But it's a bittersweet victory because Clark was unable to save Pa.

If they had just shot that scene more like that, to show that "connection" between Clark and the people he saves, that would have gone a long way, imo.

 

[flickchick85]

I agree.

a question though.

does the world know that Diana Prince and WW are one and the same?

Diana doesn't wear a mask as WW, and while she did have the glasses early on in civilian clothes, she doesn't wear that in her modern dress.

And I'm sure Diana's exploits during the war were well known and there's even a photograph of her.

so, I'm pretty sure the people during the war period knew about her and her "beyond normal" abilities.

but what about the present day?

come to think of it, that's one of the reasons why WW should have gone first in the DCEU, cuz it kind of undercuts the premise of MOS.

MOS was essentially about "first contact" with aliens. As Pa Kent felt, the world wasn't ready to learn the truth about Clark and what he could do.

But the world had already experienced a demi-goddess who could chuck a tank and level a tower with a punch and who battled with a god.

Did the world gradually forget about WW's existence after the war?

In the days of WWI, apart from photographic evidence, of which there was none (unless you count the photo of them standing around post-No Man's Land), the only way for that story to take hold would be if the soldiers present at the time kept it alive. Considering the bats*** stuff they saw, I think a lot of them probably wanted to keep that to themselves. And so, it becomes nothing more than myth.

Which leads us to the real question: what happened to Diana after this? Obviously if she were still performing these types of heroics once Korea and Vietnam rolled around, there would eventually be actual visual evidence, as Vietnam was the first truly televised war. So did she hang up the shield and lay low until Doomsday showed up? Did she go back to Themyscira for a while after all? Hopefully a sequel will fill in those blanks.

As to the secret identity question, we had a healthy debate about that in this thread a few days back. I personally think that in present day, post-BvS, she's no longer "hiding," and I don't think she'll keep up the secret identity thing. Diana Prince isn't really much of a disguise at all, and if the world saw her as the royalty she really is, I don't think it would be a huge lifestyle change for her, considering we already know she's very wealthy, well-respected, and regularly attends fancy galas and such. All they need now is for Themyscira to officially "come out" to the rest of the world, and she can officially serve as their ambassador as she has in the comics.

 

[AnneFan]

That's the dream!

And yes, Patty did cite Superman: The Movie as one of her inspirations, just as every superhero origin film director seems to do, lol. But that influence was felt here more than in any others, imo.

Definitely. It has the same sort of structure and tone, and it's not easy to pull off, but they did it here.

 

[KRYPTON INC.]

I think that on many levels SPIDER-MAN, BATMAN BEGINS and THOR all captured similar vibes to the Donner Superman film(s).

 

[Greenlite]

I'm back! Ending my self-imposed exile after seen WW last night =P My whole family was struck down by a virus, thus delayed the movie experience by one whole week. The child in the shopping mall kept on following our little one and coughing right into her face, I'm sure that kid had [BLACKOUT]Ares[/BLACKOUT] whispering in his ears that day.

Anyway, are we discussing the spoilers here, or still in the spoiler thread? I haven't read the last 100 pages

 

[KRYPTON INC.]

I'm back! Ending my self-imposed exile after seen WW last night =P My whole family was struck down by a virus, thus delayed the movie experience by one whole week. The child in the shopping mall kept on following our little one and coughing right into her face, I'm sure that kid had [BLACKOUT]Ares[/BLACKOUT] whispering in his ears that day.

Anyway, are we discussing the spoilers here, or still in the spoiler thread? I haven't read the last 100 pages

Ere on the side of caution.

 

[Powerman34]

MoS shows us a Superman who fought for the little guy and defended even the bullies before he was even Superman. He saved children from drowning, oil rig workers from fiery death, and a young woman from sexual harassment. It showed us a Superman who risked exposure by saving the life of a well-known journalist. Superman saved the lives of the citizens of Smallville and the soldiers who do not yet know that he was "not [their] enemy." When he learned that the World Engine would weaken him, Superman's response was to say, "I'm not about to let that stop me from trying." He risked his life to stop the terraforming that was ravaging Metropolis on the other side of the globe. His efforts saved everyone, including Perry, Jenny, and Steve.

Moving beyond MoS to BvS, Clark fought for the poor and disenfranchised in Gotham, including even the city's criminals who were living in fear of The Batman's reign of terror. Superman fought for a little girl dying in a fire in Juarez. He even saved the life of Lex Luthor who would have died at the fist of his own abomination had Superman not intervened.

Superman is fighting for his world -- our world -- to be a symbol of hope and a force for good. It's a cause he was willing to die for, and he did. Wonder Woman AND Man of Steel were both beautiful and powerful origin stories for their titular heroes because they both revealed the heart of their heroes through their actions and their choices.

Amen. I think people have a problem remembering what MOS actually was. Superman movie that had Superman doing super things. I mean he is Superman from a young boy trying to help and as a young man trying to find his place in the world. The Smallville battle is his first fight to stand up for the human race against the Kryptonians and defend his home!

 

[Flemm]

I think a lot of the difference has to do with the lead character exuding a warmth and compassion that the audience can connect with, and the movie creating situations where those emotions can be showcased.

It's almost a given that the main character is going to do some heroic things in a movie like this. It's easy to tune that out if it's not handled in a compelling way.

That's where the comparisons between Gadot's performance and Reeve's performance come from, imho, as they were both able to express that warmth, regardless of an objective tally of their heroic feats.