AMAZING Podcast review/discussion of MoS - Very long

He's been "Superman" for a day or two, he'll get there... the world just discovered he exists, they'll get there... that just wasn't the goal of MoS: to present people with a completely well rounded and perfectly self-confident Superman that's ready for anything, that along with humanity's understanding will come in time.

Jor-El: "We wanted you to learn what it meant to be human first so that one day, when the time was right, you may be the bridge between two peoples."


I have to wonder: if they'd called this "Superman Begins" would people have a better grasp of just what the hell is going on... I wonder.

I think a comparison to Batman Begins does this film no favours whatsoever. In many ways, Begins does everything that people seemed to think Man of Steel didn’t. Bruce develops in that film from a vengeful, self-obsessed man into the man we know as Batman and he performs many of the actions we associate we Batman within that one film. In terms of inspiring people, Bruce acts as a symbol of hope and optimism by the end of Begins as shown in the last scene. Man of Steel doesn’t show Clark develop from someone who isn’t Superman into someone who is by the end, it just details him becoming public.

Don't know about you but I saw and see two choices in that scenario.
This idea of being forced is kinda nonsense imo.

Well, perhaps I have interpreted the scenario incorrectly but to my eyes, Zod’s arrival presents two choices: Surrender to Zod, revealing yourself on his terms, not yours , or, don’t surrender and watch as Zod and his forces track you down inevitably. Then, all you’ve accomplished is angering Zod and likely killing thousands or millions of innocent people. This obviously wouldn’t be an option of Clark as seen in the bus scene, so he doesn’t develop into the person for which there is only one option, he’s been that guy since childhood. In fact, Jonathan Kent worries that the world won’t be ready for the revelation that the universe is bigger than them and places a large emphasis on choice, Clark’s choice to confront them with that truth. The film robs Clark of ever making that choice, he just gets put into the same situation he’s always put in, save people right in front of him who are in danger.

As for Superman becoming an inspiration for all man kind. This doesn't happen in issue one or rather in a first appearance story, even JorEl would understand that. That's the kind of thing that's solidified after a Grant Morrison run(ie all star in particular).

I understand that inspiring hope or being an inspiration isn’t something you can expect from the entire world after one event but there are degrees of magnitude between everybody sees Superman as inspiring and just one person maybe being given hope by him. Gotham is far from free of crime or corruption at the close of Begins but Batman most definitely inspires hope. He completely out Supermans Man of Steel in that respect. It’s even less palatable to me when the only scene that demonstrates the relationship between Superman and man post Zod is him chucking a satellite at them and setting up some kind of cold war. This wouldn’t inherently be a problem for me if the film didn’t go out of its way to talk about hope and how Superman stands for it. There’s no payoff to that idea, instead he inspires fear and paranoia.

ps. All JorEl wants is for his child to be able to choose his destiny. Thematically anyways. The rest stems from there.

I appreciate that Jor-El was probably intended to want that given the whole natural birth angle, but I find the film’s representation of that lacklustre. Jor-El preaches the great destiny of Clark and muses as to how children could be more than what society intends, but given that he has never spoken to Clark as a child or adult, it’s clear that this is Jor-El’s very specific idea for who he wants Clark to be. The film is problematic to me as Zod is clearly the Kryptonian defender that was doomed by his lack of free will, but Clark isn’t seen to really escape that. By the end of the film, he is actively trying to become a symbol of hope, surrendering himself to the symbol of his house, his genetics, what is expected of him. I’m not convinced the nuance of Clark choosing to be precisely what his father wants is portrayed because Clark barely makes any choices throughout the film.
 
Here's my scepter. Go forth and reason. Agree with you completely.
 
In many ways, Begins does everything that people seemed to think Man of Steel didn’t.

Well let's thank some higher power for that 'cause if you'd said MoS did the same thing that would just give more fuel to the people that can't seem to do anything but claim "This movie rips off every other movie that's ever been made in every respect, it's all been done before, everything is ground that's been covered, and MoS offers absolutely nothing new that anybody should give a damn about."

Or words to that effect.

And just for the record, I've never said anything about "Batman Begins" in my discussions about MoS, I've never used it as a basis for comparison against MoS in any respect whatsoever.

All I've said several times now is that I wonder if the title "Superman Begins" might have made some folks a bit more receptive to how this movie reboots the Superman legend and lore basically by tossing out everything that's come before it.

That's it.
 
I know :oldrazz:




I cannot wait, gonna be vert interesting

Hopefully they will confirm on MOS2 with all the crews return. Is it possible on 2015? I cant wait 3 years again. Are there too many comic book film in 2015?
 
What I'm about about to say below is not directed at you, just to some others in this thread generally. Your comment just reminded me of something I wanted to say before. Thanks for your comment, I appreciate that you enjoyed some of MMMs points in the podcast :yay:


The problem with those needling the MMM guys is this:

Do you start with the premise that the podcast is a solid one? If you start with that premise then if the hosts just so happen to all love/like a movie do you discount their opinion as biased just because they all agree?

Would their podcast somehow magically be better if half of them hated it, and half of them loved it? Would it suddenly be more "objective" just because there is a division? Two sides? Why?

Just because people come to the same conclusion of a movie (or of anything inherently subjective) doesn't mean they aren't looking at the movie as objectively as they can. They just looked at the movie as objectively as they can and ended up at the same conclusion.

Analogy would be if people tore up Kevin Smith's Fatman-on-Batman podcast if both him and the co-host had hated the movie. Hypothetically if both Kevin and Ralph had absolutely hated MoS would that mean that his entire Fatman-On-Batman podcast was just a giant "circle jerk" with opinions that didn't matter? Would their credibility be questioned simply because they both agreed, with no dissenting opinions on their podcast? Obviously not.

I am new to MMM, I just stumbled upon it with this specific podcast so I don't know their entire history. Some here do know of them and have listened to them in the past. But there is nothing on the two podcasts of their's that I have listened to that screams "red flags."

*And listen I understand those that don't like MoS not wanting to listen to a podcast where the hosts don't share the same opinion. I get it, after-all, I'm not searching out podcasts of people who love Iron Man 3. In fact I'm not searching out any podcasts about Iron Man 3 at all, I just don't care all that much about that movie. But I'm also not in the SHH Iron Man 3 forums posting about how much I hate/dislike the movie.

**Finally I think it's important to differentiate between critics in geekdom and general critics. Reason RT has gotten so much heat is because those reviewing the film on that site mostly don't have any comicbook knowledge, or love. I'm always open to critiques of CBMs from people that live and breath the general superhero world. That's why Mark Waid's critique of MoS resonated more than someone like Richard Roeper, I care what Mark Waid thinks (to an extent), I don't really give a crap what Richard Roeper thinks.

:oldrazz:

As someone who's listen to MMM virtually day one I can tell you they have on several occasions dismissed genuine issues with film as being nit picky fan complaints. Conversely, they've also dismissed films like X-men FC in spite of the critical love it got. They try to set themselves up as being able to have mature conversations about superheroes yet when people bring up genuine gripes some of the panelists tend to make excuses and on occasion come across as condesending.
 
I agree with some of what they said but some of it came off a bit nit-picky
 
I think a comparison to Batman Begins does this film no favours whatsoever. In many ways, Begins does everything that people seemed to think Man of Steel didn’t. Bruce develops in that film from a vengeful, self-obsessed man into the man we know as Batman and he performs many of the actions we associate we Batman within that one film. In terms of inspiring people, Bruce acts as a symbol of hope and optimism by the end of Begins as shown in the last scene. Man of Steel doesn’t show Clark develop from someone who isn’t Superman into someone who is by the end, it just details him becoming public.



Well, perhaps I have interpreted the scenario incorrectly but to my eyes, Zod’s arrival presents two choices: Surrender to Zod, revealing yourself on his terms, not yours , or, don’t surrender and watch as Zod and his forces track you down inevitably. Then, all you’ve accomplished is angering Zod and likely killing thousands or millions of innocent people. This obviously wouldn’t be an option of Clark as seen in the bus scene, so he doesn’t develop into the person for which there is only one option, he’s been that guy since childhood. In fact, Jonathan Kent worries that the world won’t be ready for the revelation that the universe is bigger than them and places a large emphasis on choice, Clark’s choice to confront them with that truth. The film robs Clark of ever making that choice, he just gets put into the same situation he’s always put in, save people right in front of him who are in danger.



I understand that inspiring hope or being an inspiration isn’t something you can expect from the entire world after one event but there are degrees of magnitude between everybody sees Superman as inspiring and just one person maybe being given hope by him. Gotham is far from free of crime or corruption at the close of Begins but Batman most definitely inspires hope. He completely out Supermans Man of Steel in that respect. It’s even less palatable to me when the only scene that demonstrates the relationship between Superman and man post Zod is him chucking a satellite at them and setting up some kind of cold war. This wouldn’t inherently be a problem for me if the film didn’t go out of its way to talk about hope and how Superman stands for it. There’s no payoff to that idea, instead he inspires fear and paranoia.



I appreciate that Jor-El was probably intended to want that given the whole natural birth angle, but I find the film’s representation of that lacklustre. Jor-El preaches the great destiny of Clark and muses as to how children could be more than what society intends, but given that he has never spoken to Clark as a child or adult, it’s clear that this is Jor-El’s very specific idea for who he wants Clark to be. The film is problematic to me as Zod is clearly the Kryptonian defender that was doomed by his lack of free will, but Clark isn’t seen to really escape that. By the end of the film, he is actively trying to become a symbol of hope, surrendering himself to the symbol of his house, his genetics, what is expected of him. I’m not convinced the nuance of Clark choosing to be precisely what his father wants is portrayed because Clark barely makes any choices throughout the film.

:up:

Bravo, agree with every word. Spot on with the last paragraph as well. You've succintly explained yet another of the film's conflicting and unrealized themes.
 
Well let's thank some higher power for that 'cause if you'd said MoS did the same thing that would just give more fuel to the people that can't seem to do anything but claim "This movie rips off every other movie that's ever been made in every respect, it's all been done before, everything is ground that's been covered, and MoS offers absolutely nothing new that anybody should give a damn about."

Or words to that effect.

And just for the record, I've never said anything about "Batman Begins" in my discussions about MoS, I've never used it as a basis for comparison against MoS in any respect whatsoever.

All I've said several times now is that I wonder if the title "Superman Begins" might have made some folks a bit more receptive to how this movie reboots the Superman legend and lore basically by tossing out everything that's come before it.

That's it.

Fair enough, but now the comparison has been made, it illustrates the problems many have with Man of Steel. Assuming that Man of Steel is supposed to do for Superman what Begins did for Batman, we can see why one is considered far more successful than the other. Not to mention the fact that complaints regarding the issues of hope aren't remnants of Donner's film but issues regarding the lack of follow through in this film.

If you have a movie where buildings are falling all over the place, aliens are coming out of a black hole to destroy New York City, and the Hulk is smashing buildings that are shown to be populated with people, and you give it a pass; yet you look at [Man of Steel] and you criticize it for it, that’s because, whether you know it or not, the film got you. You felt this film was real, and the people in the buildings and the destruction you were seeing resonated with you in a way that The Avengers didn’t…If you are bothered by what you see in Man of Steel, yet you enjoy what you see in The Avengers, that’s because [Man of Steel] is working on a different level, and Ai think that’s one of the strengths of the film.”

I've just seen this and I have to say this analysis is extremely lacking. It assumes that the scale of the destruction is even remotely comparable when it isn't, completely disregards mitigating factors such as Cap helping coordinate the evacuation of citizens and the actual acknowledgment that people were killed, and, makes the completely unwarranted assumption that those who complained about the mass casualties in Man of Steel were doing so because the film had engaged and effected them in an emotional way. If this is typical of the manner in which the podcast addresses concerns with the film then I don't think it's of much benefit for people interested in discussion.
 
The idea that Clark should be a beacon of hope is a thematic goal for the trilogy, juts like in BB he hopes to inspire hope in the system as a symbol. He will stumble and fall much like Bruce did, but ultimately he will become that ideal. To expect that in the first film is absurd and foolish. Sure, there are pacing issues and aLOT of information to take in, but the film is pretty damn good, and more importantly it puts the character in a new context. It reminds me a lot of tdkr in that way.
i was hoping to see superman the ideal of hope at the end of this movie. why? because you need your superhero on top of his game in the sequel to bring him down. and for Superman this means that Lex Luthor manipulates the humans to hate superman. or something similar.

i am afraid for some here. to hope and expect a simple character development to be streched to 3 movies? so that we get the superman that we know in the third movie? scary scary.
i remember a time when fanboys were the ones who pushed the filmakers to the limit of what could be done. i remmeber a time when we had 30 pages debating what new things could be done to the character. how do you challenge him without a fight?
now its 1 page ...... '' i hope its like in the dark knight trilogy. serious,grounded,realistic and a superfight''.

where is the 10 page debate how Lex Luthor should rebuild the city and use the parts from the krypton ship to create a Kryptonian prison. the prison would be a place where the gravity and air would be similar to Krypton. so you have the best villain of comic history creating a room that is like kryptonite. its something new. it hurts superman like kryptonite but its not. and its an idea from the first movie. and its soooooooo easy. you add an emotional scene where Jimmy (Jenny ) and Lois save superman from the prison. this writtes itself. they get him out of the prison and then you can have an epic moment where he goes out on the sun and starts charging. think about how good this would be. Lex Luthor in his industrial buildings creates a hidden kryptonian prison from parts of the ship.

where is this debate? 2 weeks of nonstop defending. defending how MOS is good to 6 people who didnt like it. i would understamd if more people didnt like it and some here would be the last man standing and going into war. but MOS is liked by a lot of people.

and i think the problem is Superman Returns. that movie disappointed the fans so much ,that it scared away old inteligent superman fanboys who were trying to debate and who were trying to find some deeper meaning in those movies.
''To expect that in the first film is absurd and foolish.'' hell yes i wanted this in the first movie that was 2 hours and 30 minutes. we didnt even get the military accepting superman.

IMO the first movie needed to be the people of Earth accepting superman and then you have the super fight that destroys so much in the city. so in the sequel you can have LL trying to destroy superman through the media and repeating for months
''he destroyed your city.......i saved it''

the way the movie ended there is no way anyone would trust superman. why would they?
 
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Fair enough, but now the comparison has been made, it illustrates the problems many have with Man of Steel. Assuming that Man of Steel is supposed to do for Superman what Begins did for Batman, we can see why one is considered far more successful than the other. Not to mention the fact that complaints regarding the issues of hope aren't remnants of Donner's film but issues regarding the lack of follow through in this film.



I've just seen this and I have to say this analysis is extremely lacking. It assumes that the scale of the destruction is even remotely comparable when it isn't, completely disregards mitigating factors such as Cap helping coordinate the evacuation of citizens and the actual acknowledgment that people were killed, and, makes the completely unwarranted assumption that those who complained about the mass casualties in Man of Steel were doing so because the film had engaged and effected them in an emotional way. If this is typical of the manner in which the podcast addresses concerns with the film then I don't think it's of much benefit for people interested in discussion.

1) Exactly, the scale of destruction is much more massive in Man of Steel and there is only one Superman to deal with it. Most of the destruction in Metropolis was caused by the Black Zero/World Engine working in tandem, not from the Superman vs Zod showdown at the end.

2) I keep hearing this "well Cap was saving civilians" argument. Cap saved a group of civilians in one building while a large chunk of the city is still filled with civilians - so bravo Cap for saving like, what, 40 people?

Also, Cap orders those cops to evacuate the buildings yet we a) clearly see civilians still around, especially when the Hulk just runs over a bunch of them in the office building b) Anyone who knows NYC knows you're not going to evacuate all those buildings in 20minutes - completely unbelievable premise in the movie. Nit-picking? Yes, and that's the point.

3) In Man of Steel one of the main buildings that is shown destroyed during the final showdown between Superman and Zod is a parking lot. That whole scene where the Lexcorp tanker-truck blows up behind Superman is in front of a parking garage. It's safe to assume no one is just hanging out in a parking garage. The scene where Zod figures out heat vision and destroyed an entire building, it's shown as being completely empty - but if you want to nitpick you can claim its' only one floor that's shown empty.

4) The point the guy on the podcast made is entirely valid. Civilian deaths ring hollow in Avengers, and that's by design. Avengers isn't trying to show what devastation and loss really looks like if these things were to actually happen. That's fine, that's what they want to convey in that universe.

Man of Steel has taken a different approach. When the Black Zero is destroying Metropolis we actually hear that women scream when those cars and the bus is lifted into the sky and slammed back down - we know she died. Also, when the Black Zero first starts up we actually see little CGI people (next to the cars in the background) being lifted up and slammed back down - we know they died. That's the approach they're going for in that universe.

You're welcome to prefer one approach more than the other, but the movie accomplished what it set out to do, which is to get an emotional reaction out of people for the lives lost during a hypothetical alien invasion. Typically in action-movies civilians are nameless, faceless, throwaway things. Moviemakers do this so we can just enjoy our popcorn fun. Without having every individual be a character we care about, Man of Steel made us upset that so many nameless, faceless individuals died. We feel Metropolis's pain in a way that other movies don't convey.

And that's also why MoS 2 will fit so seamlessly next to MoS. Addressing the death and destruction will obviously be a key plot point (again, it would be naive to think this wasn't by design). Superman killing Zod I'm sure will also be a major plot point in the sequel.

Contrast this with the Avengers battle and IM3 where Tony is "dealing" with the "realities" of the invasion. It felt completely forced because Avengers didn't make me feel like there was mass devastation, and collateral damage, and anything that warranted suffering from PTSD. The big takeaway from the Avengers battle in NYC was how cool it was to see all these heroes work together. Tony dealing with the "ramifications" of the Avengers battle in IM3 felt like a shoe-horned plot point to make the movie seem "realistic" when that's clearly not what the MCU is going for.

Finally, for all the people upset that right after killing Zod, Superman is throwing drones out of the sky and happily beginning his first day at the Daily Planet; I have a scene discussing Shwarma, and then an end-credits scene actually showing them eating Shwarma amongst the destruction, to show you.
 
i was hoping to see superman the ideal of hope at the end of this movie. why? because you need your superhero on top of his game in the sequel to bring him down. and for Superman this means that Lex Luthor manipulates the humans to hate superman. or something similar.

i am afraid for some here. to hope and expect a simple character development to be streched to 3 movies? so that we get the superman that we know in the third movie? scary scary.
i remember a time when fanboys were the ones who pushed the filmakers to the limit of what could be done. i remmeber a time when we had 30 pages debating what new things could be done to the character. how do you challenge him without a fight?
now its 1 page ...... '' i hope its like in the dark knight trilogy. serious,grounded,realistic and a superfight''.

where is the 10 page debate how Lex Luthor should rebuild the city and use the parts from the krypton ship to create a Kryptonian prison. the prison would be a place where the gravity and air would be similar to Krypton. so you have the best villain of comic history creating a room that is like kryptonite. its something new. it hurts superman like kryptonite but its not. and its an idea from the first movie. and its soooooooo easy. you add an emotional scene where Jimmy (Jenny ) and Lois save superman from the prison. this writtes itself. they get him out of the prison and then you can have an epic moment where he goes out on the sun and starts charging. think about how good this would be. Lex Luthor in his industrial buildings creates a hidden kryptonian prison from parts of the ship.

where is this debate? 2 weeks of nonstop defending. defending how MOS is good to 6 people who didnt like it. i would understamd if more people didnt like it and some here would be the last man standing and going into war. but MOS is liked by a lot of people.

and i think the problem is Superman Returns. that movie disappointed the fans so much ,that it scared away old inteligent superman fanboys who were trying to debate and who were trying to find some deeper meaning in those movies.
''To expect that in the first film is absurd and foolish.'' hell yes i wanted this in the first movie that was 2 hours and 30 minutes. we didnt even get the military accepting superman.

IMO the first movie needed to be the people of Earth accepting superman and then you have the super fight that destroys so much in the city. so in the sequel you can have LL trying to destroy superman through the media and repeating for months
''he destroyed your city.......i saved it''

the way the movie ended there is no way anyone would trust superman. why would they?

:applaud
 
because he broke Zod's neck he is now the hero? Zod through broadcast made it very obvious that the only reason they were on earth was because of Superman. they wanted him and him alone and that is why they came.
 
because he broke Zod's neck he is now the hero? Zod through broadcast made it very obvious that the only reason they were on earth was because of Superman. they wanted him and him alone and that is why they came.

You make it sound like Zod would have pulled an "up, up, and away!" maneuver if Kal had simply turned himself over voluntarily (no interference from the the Earth forces whatsoever) and left Earth behind to go someplace else and start over with the Codex info, the Genesis Chamber (in the scout ship), and the World Engine + Black Zero.

That wasn't the case.

Did you miss the part where the Kryptonian mad scientist Jax-Ur had that little discussion with Zod saying that the Codex was living within Kal's cells and then Zod asked "Does Kal-El need to be alive for us to extract the Codex from his cells?"

Jax-Ur: "No."

Zod: "Release the World Engine."

And that's that. At that point it wouldn't matter to Zod, he was going to get what he came for and then goes on to say as such to Jor-El's consciousness inside the scout ship:

Zod: "I will harvest the Codex from your son's corpse, and I will rebuild Krypton atop his bones."

You did catch that, right? That Zod had every intention of destroying this planet to make it the foundation for a new Krypton? Do I need to provide the quote where he tells Kal the same thing in the dream sequence?
 
You did catch that, right? That Zod had every intention of destroying this planet to make it the foundation for a new Krypton? Do I need to provide the quote where he tells Kal the same thing in the dream sequence?
this happened AFTER ZOD found out that Kal_el is on Earth and after they came to earth. they are already there. if Kal-El was not on Earth they would maybe never come.

in the public eyes superman is the reason why they came.
-Zod says that superman was hidding among them
-Zod says that if he doesnt come out people will die.

very simple
 
Zod and Faora are aliens from a different planet. and they came to Earth with a spaceship. Kal-El is from the same planet like them. Zod is calling him through the video. SUperman never saved people out in public with the suit on. So to the public he comes out of hidding because Zod calls him. that is not enough for trust.

what Clark should have done is start saving people. Pa Kent tells him to hide but Jor-el explains to him that he can be an ideal of hope and that he should do good. so he puts on the suit and then....................................he goes home. that was the prefect time for him to start doing good. to help people without hidding. so when Zod comes Superman would already be known to the public. and they would trust him that he is different and that he is not hidding like an animal.

Superman saved the world.but Perry White and Lois Lane's opinion through the newspaper is not enough for trust. so in the sequel they will have to spend extra time to show us how he gets their trust. something that the first movie should have done.
 
1) Exactly, the scale of destruction is much more massive in Man of Steel and there is only one Superman to deal with it. Most of the destruction in Metropolis was caused by the Black Zero/World Engine working in tandem, not from the Superman vs Zod showdown at the end.

2) I keep hearing this "well Cap was saving civilians" argument. Cap saved a group of civilians in one building while a large chunk of the city is still filled with civilians - so bravo Cap for saving like, what, 40 people?

Also, Cap orders those cops to evacuate the buildings yet we a) clearly see civilians still around, especially when the Hulk just runs over a bunch of them in the office building b) Anyone who knows NYC knows you're not going to evacuate all those buildings in 20minutes - completely unbelievable premise in the movie. Nit-picking? Yes, and that's the point.

3) In Man of Steel one of the main buildings that is shown destroyed during the final showdown between Superman and Zod is a parking lot. That whole scene where the Lexcorp tanker-truck blows up behind Superman is in front of a parking garage. It's safe to assume no one is just hanging out in a parking garage. The scene where Zod figures out heat vision and destroyed an entire building, it's shown as being completely empty - but if you want to nitpick you can claim its' only one floor that's shown empty.

4) The point the guy on the podcast made is entirely valid. Civilian deaths ring hollow in Avengers, and that's by design. Avengers isn't trying to show what devastation and loss really looks like if these things were to actually happen. That's fine, that's what they want to convey in that universe.

The fact that, at the end of the day, many people may have died in the Chitauri invasion, more than Cap saved, isn’t the point. What people are trying to argue is that it’s important that during your climactic battle, you don’t lose sight of what’s important. Your heroes are fighting your villains because they want to protect us and keep us safe. Although the eventual defeat of the villain is in our best interest, it rings hollow to the essence of a superhero story if what you’re really concerned with is the potential for super powered mayhem. Whedon was clearly concerned that without scenes of the Avengers helping people and making an attempt to protect civilians, his final set piece finale would be dismissed as an excuse for showcasing destruction and the audience would lose sight of why the Avengers coming together was a good thing and a reason to be excited. Snyder didn’t share those concerns and the valid criticism was made that that was an oversight as it diminishes what should be the thrill of Superman finally being out in the open.

Now would be a good point to address why I believe people aren’t too accepting of moments like Superman saving the pilot as justification for his later inaction. For the reasons stated above, it’s a very different having your hero save someone who he sees is in trouble directly in front of him and having him choose to do something proactive in defence of citizens. It shows that your hero saving lives and being a positive influence is important to the filmmaker, more so than the action itself, which is just a vehicle to express that point.

Man of Steel has taken a different approach. When the Black Zero is destroying Metropolis we actually hear that women scream when those cars and the bus is lifted into the sky and slammed back down - we know she died. Also, when the Black Zero first starts up we actually see little CGI people (next to the cars in the background) being lifted up and slammed back down - we know they died. That's the approach they're going for in that universe.

You're welcome to prefer one approach more than the other, but the movie accomplished what it set out to do, which is to get an emotional reaction out of people for the lives lost during a hypothetical alien invasion. Typically in action-movies civilians are nameless, faceless, throwaway things. Moviemakers do this so we can just enjoy our popcorn fun. Without having every individual be a character we care about, Man of Steel made us upset that so many nameless, faceless individuals died. We feel Metropolis's pain in a way that other movies don't convey.

I don’t think anyone has a problem with a filmmaker choosing to subvert genre conventions to make a point in the Alan Moore Miracleman vein, they, and myself, just don’t see that as being presented in Man of Steel. This is for two main reasons. Firstly, it runs counter to the idea of Superman being ultimately an inspirational figure who you should be thrilled and excited to see. You can’t simultaneously play the genre straight and subvert it. Secondly, the destruction you describe is merely offered without comment by Snyder. No characters muse on the great toll the Kryptonian feud played on the city. Nothing is done to humanise the CGI corpses beyond any other genre offering. Neither Superman, nor anybody else draws attention to the loss of life that accompanies the spectacle.

The death of Zod seems to illustrate that Snyder was concerned with spectacle before the tragedy of mass destruction rather aptly. Zod tells Superman beforehand that he will keep killing until he is killed. He deliberately knocks Superman through buildings and levels them to make good on that promise. Superman has to kill him because he is single minded in his purpose. However, it’s only when civilians are directly threatened with heat vision that Superman gives in and kills Zod. The scenario which sees Superman kill Zod is the same throughout the entire fight but that it only occurs to Superman to commit the act when Snyder actually puts real humans in the scene highlights that he wasn’t concerned with the hundreds of other people who were killed by levelled buildings, presumably because the spectacle of two super humans fighting was the priority.

And that's also why MoS 2 will fit so seamlessly next to MoS. Addressing the death and destruction will obviously be a key plot point (again, it would be naive to think this wasn't by design). Superman killing Zod I'm sure will also be a major plot point in the sequel.

A film has to stand on its own. Potential plots for other films can’t be used to defend valid criticisms of the film at hand.

Contrast this with the Avengers battle and IM3 where Tony is "dealing" with the "realities" of the invasion. It felt completely forced because Avengers didn't make me feel like there was mass devastation, and collateral damage, and anything that warranted suffering from PTSD. The big takeaway from the Avengers battle in NYC was how cool it was to see all these heroes work together. Tony dealing with the "ramifications" of the Avengers battle in IM3 felt like a shoe-horned plot point to make the movie seem "realistic" when that's clearly not what the MCU is going for.

Tony’s PTSD stems naturally from the consequences of the invasion. He’s suffering because of his own near death experience and the greater idea that he is smaller and less significant than he believed. Hence his retreating into his comfort zone and building all the suits. His anxieties weren’t related to collateral damage or mass devastation, but his personal brush with death and realisation that he’s far from the king of the hill, as he’d been able to believe in the previous films.
 
Why are people going on about the destruction of buildings in Avengers. I count three buildings that sustain heavy damage.
 
The fact that, at the end of the day, many people may have died in the Chitauri invasion, more than Cap saved, isn’t the point. What people are trying to argue is that it’s important that during your climactic battle, you don’t lose sight of what’s important. Your heroes are fighting your villains because they want to protect us and keep us safe. Although the eventual defeat of the villain is in our best interest, it rings hollow to the essence of a superhero story if what you’re really concerned with is the potential for super powered mayhem. Whedon was clearly concerned that without scenes of the Avengers helping people and making an attempt to protect civilians, his final set piece finale would be dismissed as an excuse for showcasing destruction and the audience would lose sight of why the Avengers coming together was a good thing and a reason to be excited. Snyder didn’t share those concerns and the valid criticism was made that that was an oversight as it diminishes what should be the thrill of Superman finally being out in the open.

Now would be a good point to address why I believe people aren’t too accepting of moments like Superman saving the pilot as justification for his later inaction. For the reasons stated above, it’s a very different having your hero save someone who he sees is in trouble directly in front of him and having him choose to do something proactive in defence of citizens. It shows that your hero saving lives and being a positive influence is important to the filmmaker, more so than the action itself, which is just a vehicle to express that point.



I don’t think anyone has a problem with a filmmaker choosing to subvert genre conventions to make a point in the Alan Moore Miracleman vein, they, and myself, just don’t see that as being presented in Man of Steel. This is for two main reasons. Firstly, it runs counter to the idea of Superman being ultimately an inspirational figure who you should be thrilled and excited to see. You can’t simultaneously play the genre straight and subvert it. Secondly, the destruction you describe is merely offered without comment by Snyder. No characters muse on the great toll the Kryptonian feud played on the city. Nothing is done to humanise the CGI corpses beyond any other genre offering. Neither Superman, nor anybody else draws attention to the loss of life that accompanies the spectacle.

The death of Zod seems to illustrate that Snyder was concerned with spectacle before the tragedy of mass destruction rather aptly. Zod tells Superman beforehand that he will keep killing until he is killed. He deliberately knocks Superman through buildings and levels them to make good on that promise. Superman has to kill him because he is single minded in his purpose. However, it’s only when civilians are directly threatened with heat vision that Superman gives in and kills Zod. The scenario which sees Superman kill Zod is the same throughout the entire fight but that it only occurs to Superman to commit the act when Snyder actually puts real humans in the scene highlights that he wasn’t concerned with the hundreds of other people who were killed by levelled buildings, presumably because the spectacle of two super humans fighting was the priority.



A film has to stand on its own. Potential plots for other films can’t be used to defend valid criticisms of the film at hand.



Tony’s PTSD stems naturally from the consequences of the invasion. He’s suffering because of his own near death experience and the greater idea that he is smaller and less significant than he believed. Hence his retreating into his comfort zone and building all the suits. His anxieties weren’t related to collateral damage or mass devastation, but his personal brush with death and realisation that he’s far from the king of the hill, as he’d been able to believe in the previous films.


1)There were 6 Avengers, the only one concerned about civilian safety was Cap, frankly because since he's so much less powerful than Hulk, Thor, IM he's really only useful to give directions and save civilians. He doesn't have to bother with stopping the Chitauri invasion because he physically can't.

2) On the flip side, there is only one Superman and thus he has to prioritize. If we're only talking about the final battle between Zod and Superman, well Zod is just as powerful as Superman and has vowed to massacre humans to spite Supes, thus Superman is forced to engage with him so Zod doesn't go off and start killing people.

3) Given that Zod is just as powerful, Superman can't just force Zod to not cause destruction, he has to fight him as priority #1.

4) Now you can say "that rings hollow to the essence of a superhero story" all you want but a) that's purely subjective b) that's the point defendes of MoS have been making all along that people are bringing their own pre-conceived notions of what Superman is into the film instead of judging the film on its' own merits. That statement you made proves our point.

5) Sure Superman saving the pilot is a nice moment, but this film isn't about Superman "being Superman" as some people state, this film is about Clark Kent/Kal-El becoming Superman. This film is about stopping an existential threat to the Earth via alien invasion. That is the priority, everything else is secondary.

6) While I agree Snyder should have done more to mention the carnage, and it was jarring for seemingly everything to be back to normal at the end I don't think this ruins the film as some are convinced it does. It's a minor weakness/annoyance and to concentrate on this oversight is to nit-pick. In comparison, as you mentioned, there is some moment of reflection in Avengers for those that died but this felt tacked on to me and didn't have any emotional weight/resonance. It just felt forced and out of place in Avengers. But I recognize this as a nit-pick and a weakness, so I don't use it as a significant attack on the film.


7) So you wanted to see, what, Superman snap Zod's neck immediately? Yes Snyder and Goyer put Superman into this moral dilemma intentionally. And the only way for it to work is for a precise setup where there was no other option, where all avenues had been exhausted. Superman just coldly snapping Zod's neck because he foresaw potential damage to building that would ensue from a battle would actually be out of character.

A film has to stand on its own. Potential plots for other films can’t be used to defend valid criticisms of the film at hand.

8) This film does stand on its' own, this isn't IM2. I just recognize/see where Goyer and Snyder are going with the trilogy/DCCU and this film lays a great foundation. It can be both, a movie that stands on its' own merits and a setup film.

9) As I said with Avengers, the PTSD/"seriousness" in IM3 seems tacked on, and forced. And this is where tone really matters. Avengers did nothing to set-up a tone of allowing for a world where PTSD would be an issue for these heroes, especially someone of Tony Stark's background. If your tone is "light" then any real serious issue is going to seem forced/not-believable. And that's precisely what happened in IM3. The whole PTSD storyline got a big eye-roll from me when I saw it because it was so out of place.

And those defending it sound like how us MoS defenders must sound to the detractors, grasping at straws to justify a seemingly clear weakness in the film. A point many MoS detractors have stated over and over, I'll apply to IM3, the film should make everything clear, if you have to explain it after-the-fact then the film failed at its' job.
 
The military would trust Superman after the battle with the Kryptonians. Even soldiers that weren't there for it. But everyone outside of the U.S. would be fearful most likely.
 
1)There were 6 Avengers, the only one concerned about civilian safety was Cap, frankly because since he's so much less powerful than Hulk, Thor, IM he's really only useful to give directions and save civilians. He doesn't have to bother with stopping the Chitauri invasion because he physically can't.

2) On the flip side, there is only one Superman and thus he has to prioritize. If we're only talking about the final battle between Zod and Superman, well Zod is just as powerful as Superman and has vowed to massacre humans to spite Supes, thus Superman is forced to engage with him so Zod doesn't go off and start killing people.

3) Given that Zod is just as powerful, Superman can't just force Zod to not cause destruction, he has to fight him as priority #1.

I feel like you missed my greater point. The only reason anyone is concerned about civilians in the Avengers is because Whedon chose for them to. It’s reasonably easy to say after the fact that because there were more characters, obviously some would protect civilians but that’s not really the case. It would have been just as easy to only show the Avengers fighting Chitauri, and that could well have happened in the hands of another director. Conversely, the reason Superman didn’t more actively engage in that behaviour wasn’t because he was alone but because Snyder didn’t want him to. Superman isn’t limited by circumstance so much as by Snyder’s creative decision. Hence where the criticism is derived, the film wants us to see Superman as somebody who cares about people but that aspect is dropped in the climax.

4) Now you can say "that rings hollow to the essence of a superhero story" all you want but a) that's purely subjective b) that's the point defendes of MoS have been making all along that people are bringing their own pre-conceived notions of what Superman is into the film instead of judging the film on its' own merits. That statement you made proves our point.

5) Sure Superman saving the pilot is a nice moment, but this film isn't about Superman "being Superman" as some people state, this film is about Clark Kent/Kal-El becoming Superman. This film is about stopping an existential threat to the Earth via alien invasion. That is the priority, everything else is secondary.

The notion that the core of a superhero story is helping and protecting people may be pre-conceived but Man of Steel doesn’t refute these ideas. It’s the film that says Clark can’t stop himself helping people, the film that says he will present an idea to strive towards and that he will change the world through the strength of his good character. If the film had clearly presented that this Superman was different then there wouldn’t be a problem. Snyder’s not trying to radically alter and reinvent Superman, this much is obvious from the film (it quotes All Star verbatim after all). The issue we keep returning to is lack of follow through.

6) While I agree Snyder should have done more to mention the carnage, and it was jarring for seemingly everything to be back to normal at the end I don't think this ruins the film as some are convinced it does. It's a minor weakness/annoyance and to concentrate on this oversight is to nit-pick. In comparison, as you mentioned, there is some moment of reflection in Avengers for those that died but this felt tacked on to me and didn't have any emotional weight/resonance. It just felt forced and out of place in Avengers. But I recognize this as a nit-pick and a weakness, so I don't use it as a significant attack on the film.

Snyder did nothing to comment on the carnage. Your initial point that it was all a deliberate subversion of the genre conventions holds little weight without this recognition. I guess I’m asking why you’re convinced this is subversive commentary when the film provides no evidence to support that? The carnage is just as empty as in other similar blockbusters.

7) So you wanted to see, what, Superman snap Zod's neck immediately? Yes Snyder and Goyer put Superman into this moral dilemma intentionally. And the only way for it to work is for a precise setup where there was no other option, where all avenues had been exhausted. Superman just coldly snapping Zod's neck because he foresaw potential damage to building that would ensue from a battle would actually be out of character.

What I was saying was that as soon Zod levelled even one building and killed any innocents, Superman should have killed him given he knew Zod’s intentions. That makes sense given the logic of the character and situation. That the entire brawl takes place, killing many, before the heat vision incident suggests that the drag out brawl was more important and the top priority. You didn’t really refute that point.

9) As I said with Avengers, the PTSD/"seriousness" in IM3 seems tacked on, and forced. And this is where tone really matters. Avengers did nothing to set-up a tone of allowing for a world where PTSD would be an issue for these heroes, especially someone of Tony Stark's background. If your tone is "light" then any real serious issue is going to seem forced/not-believable. And that's precisely what happened in IM3. The whole PTSD storyline got a big eye-roll from me when I saw it because it was so out of place.

And those defending it sound like how us MoS defenders must sound to the detractors, grasping at straws to justify a seemingly clear weakness in the film. A point many MoS detractors have stated over and over, I'll apply to IM3, the film should make everything clear, if you have to explain it after-the-fact then the film failed at its' job.

Tone isn’t binary though. You can’t label any film as being either ‘dark’ in which only very serious things can happen or ‘light’ in which serious things can never happen. Furthermore, you stated that you didn’t think the number of casualties or collateral damage ‘warranted’ PTSD, I merely pointed out that the film never claimed that it did. The film is very clear and uses flashbacks to establish exactly why Tony was suffering from it.
 
I feel like you missed my greater point. The only reason anyone is concerned about civilians in the Avengers is because Whedon chose for them to. It’s reasonably easy to say after the fact that because there were more characters, obviously some would protect civilians but that’s not really the case. It would have been just as easy to only show the Avengers fighting Chitauri, and that could well have happened in the hands of another director. Conversely, the reason Superman didn’t more actively engage in that behaviour wasn’t because he was alone but because Snyder didn’t want him to. Superman isn’t limited by circumstance so much as by Snyder’s creative decision. Hence where the criticism is derived, the film wants us to see Superman as somebody who cares about people but that aspect is dropped in the climax.



The notion that the core of a superhero story is helping and protecting people may be pre-conceived but Man of Steel doesn’t refute these ideas. It’s the film that says Clark can’t stop himself helping people, the film that says he will present an idea to strive towards and that he will change the world through the strength of his good character. If the film had clearly presented that this Superman was different then there wouldn’t be a problem. Snyder’s not trying to radically alter and reinvent Superman, this much is obvious from the film (it quotes All Star verbatim after all). The issue we keep returning to is lack of follow through.



Snyder did nothing to comment on the carnage. Your initial point that it was all a deliberate subversion of the genre conventions holds little weight without this recognition. I guess I’m asking why you’re convinced this is subversive commentary when the film provides no evidence to support that? The carnage is just as empty as in other similar blockbusters.



What I was saying was that as soon Zod levelled even one building and killed any innocents, Superman should have killed him given he knew Zod’s intentions. That makes sense given the logic of the character and situation. That the entire brawl takes place, killing many, before the heat vision incident suggests that the drag out brawl was more important and the top priority. You didn’t really refute that point.



Tone isn’t binary though. You can’t label any film as being either ‘dark’ in which only very serious things can happen or ‘light’ in which serious things can never happen. Furthermore, you stated that you didn’t think the number of casualties or collateral damage ‘warranted’ PTSD, I merely pointed out that the film never claimed that it did. The film is very clear and uses flashbacks to establish exactly why Tony was suffering from it.

1) Yes Whedon chose to write his movie a certain way, and Goyer & Snyder chose a different way. I have no issue with the way scenarios played out in MoS. It worked perfectly well for me. I'm a huge Superman fan and one frustration I've always had with the comics and cartoons is that they allow Superman to wiggle his way out of moral dilemmas and tough decisions. Don't like the damage being causes to a city? Just punch the baddie into the sun! Don't like that a villain pledges to kill everyone? Put him into a prison specifically built for super-powered individuals! Don't like that a villain is threatening people with his mind (aka Manchester Black)? Just have Superman use his heat vision to target the area of his brain that Manchester derives his powers from...without killing (or permanently disabling) him!

Personally I find this annoying in the comics, and I've always wanted to see a Superhero movies where things aren't so easy, even for someone as powerful as Superman. Superman is an inspiration not because he's perfect and can diffuse every situation, but because he doesn't give into weak human emotions like revenge/hate/anger/jealousy/etc... That's what makes him the Man of Tomorrow, that's what the core of the character is.

*If anything the most "out of character" portion of of the movie is when Superman gets pissed and goes "you think you can threaten my mother?" while pummeling Zod. That was borderline "out of character" for my tastes, but I recognize this is a new iteration of the character and thus I can allow Goyer and Snyder to tell their own story.

So Goyer and Snyder writing things the way they did I have no problem with because it doesn't detract from what the character a) is in my mind b) the one presented in the movie in the first place

2) Superman caring about people isn't dropped in the climax. That's what you're not understanding. Clark Kent, when he's the wanderer isn't faced with a threat that requires many hard decisions other then "whether to help and expose myself, or not." By the climax Clark Kent/Superman is facing a challenge unlike he's ever faced, and so other considerations come into play. Basically, before Zod shows up Clark's priorities are helping people and not exposing himself. Once Zod shows up his priority is protecting the entire planet. He's working under a different set of realities.

3) I'm close to done arguing about the carnage because a) It's been addressed ad nauseum b) It's quite a minor quibble/nit-pick. And like I said, if we're going to use that standard in MoS, I'm going to apply it to Avengers, Batman, and Spiderman as well. We could literally go in circles with minor nit-picks in all those movies.

As I mentioned before, I'm sure this will be addressed in a sequel (Goyer and Snyder already mentioned as much), and as I stated previously whether it's addressed in the sequel or not is immaterial to how great the movie is because I view it as a minor complaint.

4) I'll repeat what I said about killing Zod. Zod is clear about his intentions yes, but Superman is a character that will try any/every other way to diffuse a situation rather than kill. In no other scene of the battle before the neck-snap was it clear that innocents were in immediate danger. Superman was trying to defeat Zod without killing him. Once the heat-vision started and that family was in the way Superman had no other choice in that specific moment.
 
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