"Ancient History" Talkback/Discussion

The villain at the begining was the Gentleman Ghost. His deal is this:



Back in the 1800s, he was a theif and murderer, wanted for all manner of highway robery. Eventually, Nighthawk and Cinnamon (Hawkman and Hawkgirl's incarnations from the 1800s) caught up with him. So disgusted by his crimes, they took him out into the desert and hung him from a tree. Somehow, his spirit lingered on, infused with power, possebly stemming from the curse that causes Hawkman and Hawkgirl to reincarnate upon death. Ever since, he has sworn revenge against to two for his death.
 
Just for the sake of completeness in our trivia, nobody mentioned the reference to Teth-Adam, the evil Captain Marvel.
 
Rowen said:
I liked this epsidoe it was really good. i thought at the end that john would of choosen shayara/hawkgirl. but instead he chose vixen i was suprised:eek: . who was that villian in the begining of the epsidoe that gl was figthing?

he was all white like a ghost. & he talked, & acted like scrapington from super robot monkey team hyper force go!. oh & through out the whole epsidoe i was thinking to myself where is batman, cause he was in the last epsidoe with hawkman & shadow theif.

i figured batman would say something at the end but thus he didn't :( .

I have the Starcrossed movie, but are you saying that there is another Hawkman episode? When did it air, and what was it called?
Also what happened before the theme song started on this episode?
 
I guess Dread's still writing his weekly news report. ;)
 
The irony here is that nearly everyone who illegally downloaded claimed "FAR FROM HOME" was absolute crap, and I ended up enjoying that more than I expected, and "ANCIENT HISTORY" was given a lot of thumb's up, and I found myself getting bored with it about halfway. I wonder if it is all in the expectations, or simply because Hawkman, Shayera, and Green Lantern are not really my Top 3 members of the JLU (the latter two likely due to having a lot of exposure over the past few seasons). Still, "ANCIENT HISTORY" is a solidly good episode of JLU that attempts to wrap up the "romantic triangle" between Shayera, Vixen, and GL that begain with JLU. And throw in Hawkman, the most conveluted hero in the animated DCU. The episode, however, succeeds by showcasing more mature relationships and innotations than focusing on "pretty action" like, say, TEEN TITANS or THE BATMAN would have, and that is always notable. The episode also defied some expectations, which for a viewer as jaded as I, is also worth a share of points. This episode, however, shows that almost everything that has to be said about Shayera and John Stewart has pretty much been all said, and saying good-bye to the show this season (barring some DTV's of course) may not be the worst idea in the world. Some parts did drag, though, which is something "Far from Home" didn't. Had this been a 2-parter, I would have fallen asleep.

The episode was also not helped from being a key follow-up episode to an episode that aired, in real time, over 7 months ago ("Shadow of the Hawk"), but that's the fault of the always inept CARTOON NETWORK, and not the writers. A gap of over half a year between story-points takes some "oomph" out of a story. Speaking of writers, DC's cowboy Geoff Johns wrote this episode, and his writing fit in seemlessly with the tone of the show. I think I preferred Gail Simone's episode, though ("Double Date").

The episode starts in a "by the books" fashion with Green Lantern chasing around the ghost-robber, Gentleman Ghost, who proves more than able to escape his ring with being, well, an intangible mystical being (and our second ghost-character of the season if you count Deadman from "Dead Reckoning"). Coming in to even the tide of battle is Hawkman with an Nth Metal Net (!) that traps the Ghost fast. Yes, this is Carter Hall, the confused glorified "Shayera stalker" whose mind was made a little wiggy by the Thanagarian memory-device and who seems very able and handy with their tech (and artificial wings). Green Lantern, understandably, gives the man the cold shoulder; I mean, if Hall was obsessing this badly over, say, Batgirl, he'd have been in Arkham by now. bad place, Batman locked up a whole Cult of the Cat who had fancies for Catwoman in "Cult of the Cat" (including a Mr. Donald Blake, aka "The Catman").

In the Watchtower, Vixen and Shayera are working out in the gymnasium (with Shayera showing once and for all that Thanagarians have enhanced strength) and discussing Stewart. Vixen is curious as to why Shayera's not made a "move" yet (Vixen essentially gave Shayera permission to "try" in "Hunters Moon", which aired almost 2 entire years ago). Stewart enters the room, but as usual, when Vixen and Shayera are together, its the latter who gets the crux of his attention (something that's hardly new, even from "Wake the Dead"). Vixen's going on some model gig thing the next day, but GL's all business with Shayera anyway, discussing her stalker "boyfriend", Hawkman, and keeping clear of him. John, of course, insists that he's not being "jealous". Meanwhile, Shadow-Thief is lurking about, ready to even some score.

Vixen apparently spent the night at John's "bachelor pad" before going to her shoot, but as she enters the elevator, she catches Shadow-Thief sneaking into the apartment. She comes to the rescue, but the pair of them are unable to match ST for long, as he can readily alter his form and density (becoming shadow-intangible). The best bit is when ST literally SMOTHERS GL to render him unconscious all while citing the first two lines of his own "Green Lantern's oath" with a creepy tone added (as far as villians go, I loved that bit). Seemingly uninterested in Vixen, Shadow-Thief leaves with GL, eager to finish his collection with "the Thanagarian harpy". Naturally, Vixen seeks out Shayera for aid, and giving that the last time they faced Shadow-Thief, Carter Hall was involved, decide to swing by the museum where he works for leads.

Hall isn't there, but Shadow-Thief is, with the captured GL ready and waiting. Vixen employs a new power (spider-powers, like a Spider-Woman! Hah!) while Shayera tries to take on ST, and eventually they get the genuine Hawkman as cavalry (which suits ST fine). Basically, Shadow-Thief is able to defeat all three of them (even crushing Vixen under some dinosaur bones and leaving her there, critically wounded) and sits them all in a circle around the Absorbascon, which he managed to retrieve after he "dug himself out" back in Egypt. He uses the three of them to go on a very long flashback of Ancient Egypt, and this was where I got bored.

Not to say this was all bad, far from it, it just seemed to drag. The point was to expand upon flashbacks last seen in "Shadow of the Hawk", but as I knew where it was leading, it felt a little draggy. I'm not sure if the plot could have withstood without it, though. Still, amazingly, in a universe full of gods, demons, ghosts, metahumans and so on, the concept of "reincarnation", especially with human and alien souls, seems a little cheesy. Fortunately, the episode doesn't outright admit that all the figures involved are in fact reincarnations of a love triangle, but it all could be explained as the wiggy after-effects of a human's exposure to space technology that his body was not made to handle (as Shayera stated in "Shadow of the Hawk").

Basically, they get a look of Kator-Hol and Shayera-Hol, two stranded Thanagarians on Earth who ruled as "gods" in ancient Egypt. Naturally, the "present" VA's voice their "past" incarnations, and basically Kator become too obsessed with his job as ruler to give his wife the attention she needed, so she got closer to one of his trusted warriors, a double for Stewart (of course he is). The Egyptian queen has an affair with this warrior (and displayed in vivid without being explicit detail; let's just say JLU's never been as afraid of showing people kissing as most "kiddie action" shows are), and when Kator-Hol is told by his grunt, Hath-Set, he's devistated. Hath-Set, unfortunately, misunderstands Kator's angry ramblings for direct orders, and poisions the lovers. Finding their bodies, Kator decided to die with his wife and drink the poison himself. Naturally, this has some connotations to Cleopatra & Antony, the Egyptian/Roman lovers who took their lives with asps.

Back in "real time", Shadow Thief drops another bombshell; not only are these three the supposed "reincarnations" of that romantic triangle, but he's actually the physical manifestation of Hawkman's darkest desires! ST's the one who manipulated events to get the pair here, make Carter a hero, and so on, and now he wants Carter to "take his destiny" by killing GL and taking Shayera back. Talk about a relationship specialist who's worse than Jerry Springer!

And so, Hawkman kills Stewart, gets his jiggy on with Shayera while ST films it and sells it--

No, of course that doesn't happen. Of course Hawkman frees the heroes, and of course they fight Shadow Thief. What'd you expect after the commercial break? Shadow-Thief VICIOUSLY breaks GL's arm to "throw his concentration off". Much like the last truly vicious rogue in the show, Devil-Ray, Shadow-Thief seemingly meets his end, only when Hawkman seemingly re-merges with him to end the threat, which felt a little anti-climatic. Sure, an overly melodramatic, "Be GONE!" while shattering the guy to microns would have been more predictable, but man, would it have felt more satisfying. Especially since Hawkman, after seeing what his situation has wrought and seemingly learning from the "ancient history", decides to leave Shayera alone and presumably will never be seen again. Still, give James Remar credit for voicing both Hawkman and Shadow-Thief for two episodes and doing such a good job that he didn't accidently spill the beans about the connection. I surely didn't see it coming.

So are they all reincarnations of star-crossed tragic lovers, or was Carter Hall merely a guy whose mind was altered by an alien device that created a supervillian from his psyche that led them on a very-conincidental history lesson? You be the judge. And frankly leaving that leeway makes the story stronger. It assumes we have an imagination.

Fortunately, the ending makes up for any hints of anti-climatism. Vixen is brought to the Medical Wing of the Watchtower, her "healing abilities" being the only thing that allowed her to survive. GL and Shayera talk about their relationship, and John admits that he's been so awkward around Shayera not only because of being exes, but because of his time-adventure with Batman in "The Once and Future Thing" (which aired over 2 years ago in JLU Season 1), where they went to the year 2040 and met THEIR son, Warhawk. Naturally, knowing that the pair seem "destined" by fate to have a son in the future means that they're destined to hook up again. However, John refuses to simply be "fate's puppet" and return to Shayera (which was what I am sure most viewers were expecting) and chooses to stay with Vixen. This may seem not as satisfying, but is in keeping with John's character; all his life he has sought to be his own man, even when seemingly joining a path in which many people serve as one, whether as a Marine, a Green Lantern, and a member of the Justice League. "Only a Dream" noted his nightmare of being nothing but a "slave to the ring", and through that, destiny (the Guardians of Oa specifically chose him to be a GL, after all, which is in a way like destiny, like fate choosing Arthur Pendragon for Excaliber and so on). While he still does love Shayera (and vice versa), he doesn't want to rekindle their romance SOLELY for "fate". Which is understandable. He wants to choose his own path.

Shayera, meanwhile, goes off to find Batman and ask him about their son, which I thought was a nice touch, time-paradoxes aside (as in, won't telling someone's mother how their son will be effect how they raise 'em? I'd hate it if my mom yelled at me for not doing my homework by going, "Batman said you'd be doing 30 points better on tests by this age, so get at it!"). Batman had no dialogue, but it seemed like a classy way to end the episode.

Bottom line? I felt this episode got a little overrated from mentions online but was otherwise a solid episode of JLU that put some character development plotlines to rest. Hawkman's complete origin and motivation was revealed, and he decided that his obsession (however artificial, or mystical) was not worth killing someone, the GL triangle got resolved and Shayera doesn't seem adverse to the idea of having a kid. Plus, just because she has a child with John doesn't mean they'd stay married or so on. History can be very tricky.

Still, I was more looking foward to "Alive" and "Destroyer" than this episode, but still a watchable outing. Shadow-Thief was a great villian; JLU's had a few of them this season, and they're really almost stealing the show. Which isn't always so bad. Maybe I'd have been more annoyed if I was a fan of Hawkman in the comics (where his origin is no less conveluted thanks to years of screwing up), but I'm not, so I wasn't. He did come off as the world's most noble stalker, though. ;)
 
Eh. Johns is very consistant. It's great how he didn't get to write an episode with the Flash in it, that would have been terrible.
Unless he wrote Flash and Substance, since I don't care to check on these things.

I really wish the Gentleman Ghost could have been used for something real. That guy is awesome.
 
I felt like I had missed alot, like a whole episode or 2s worth, I came in during the theme song. When the song ended everyone on the show was talking about Hawkman like they all new him. I thought I couldn't have missed his whole intro.
Now I'm upset that I missed "Shadow of the Hawk"
 
The Question said:
Except, you know, there was that streatch (that Johns wrote) where Hawkgirl no longer remembered her past lives, and Hawkman got kind of obsessive about it. And really, how did this episode make Hawkman look like a fascist?

Yeah-and that stretch made Hawkman look like an obsessive, stalking loser and it's probably a good part of why he lost his book. Johns claims to respect Hawkman, but he doesn't.

Hawkman-or should I say Khufu-came off like a fascist in the flashback scenes where he was interested in nothing but conquest.

Like I said, the only people who would be annoyed by this episode and those details are Hawkman fans. If you're not a fan of the character, then you most likely couldn't care less.
 
Artistsean said:
I have the Starcrossed movie, but are you saying that there is another Hawkman episode? When did it air, and what was it called?
Also what happened before the theme song started on this episode?

Yeah, there's a previous Hawkman episode. He comes off like a delusional, nutso obsessive stalker and a total loser in it too.

I'm pretty sure Hawkman's creator, Gardner Fox, wouldn't have approved of his character being degraded in such a way. I know as a big Hawkman fan it pissed me the **** off and really makes me not mind the Timmverse ending as much.
 
I wonder how many kids are going to ask what a harlot is :o
 
Dude, people are gettin pissed at a little change to Hakman's character? I mean, seriosuly, Timm and Dini's put out some good stuff, I don't see why anyone would be happy they're leaving...
 
Kurosawa said:
Yeah-and that stretch made Hawkman look like an obsessive, stalking loser and it's probably a good part of why he lost his book. Johns claims to respect Hawkman, but he doesn't.

Well, he's been in love with the woman for over ten thousand years. She suddenly isn't interested in him anymore, what would you expect but for him to become a little obsesive? It really makes sense.

Kurosawa said:
Hawkman-or should I say Khufu-came off like a fascist in the flashback scenes where he was interested in nothing but conquest.

That's not necesairily fascism, though. He was conquering the world to bring it peace. Doesn't make him a fascist. He never once mentioned what form of ogvernment he was bringing to the areas he brought under his control. Besides, Hawkman's always been highly conservative. He'd be one to think that the only way to make things better was to force the changes to some degree or another. Especially in a time when things were alot less civilized.

Kurosawa said:
Like I said, the only people who would be annoyed by this episode and those details are Hawkman fans. If you're not a fan of the character, then you most likely couldn't care less.

But I am a fan of the character. But I don't think it's as big a deal as you say it is.
 
I liked this episode. It was a loose end, and it needed tying. I'm glad they choose this way to do it.

No for some decoration:
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Ok, so Hawkman didn't turn out how many people anted him to turn out.
I wished he was a bit better also, but Dini/Timm have done so many other great things in the DCAU.


Get Over It.

:cool:
 
No loose ends were tied up. A big one was left dangling when John tells Shayera about their son. Now what??? Well we won't get to see that with the show gettin the axe. :mad:

A very adult themed show.....

1. adulterous affair
2. Vixen sleep over or shack-up
3. A couple of open-mouth kisses!! :eek:
4. A murder and a suicide!!


Even my 6-year old had some questions on this one.
 
celldog said:
No loose ends were tied up. A big one was left dangling when John tells Shayera about their son. Now what??? Well we won't get to see that with the show gettin the axe. :mad:

A very adult themed show.....

1. adulterous affair
2. Vixen sleep over or shack-up
3. A couple of open-mouth kisses!! :eek:
4. A murder and a suicide!!


Even my 6-year old had some questions on this one.

1. adulterous affair
2. Vixen sleep over or shack-up
3. A couple of open-mouth kisses!! :eek:
4. A murder and a suicide!!

all you need is GL doing his mom and it would just like hamlit.
 
I can't belive they actually showed Hawkgirl (in the past) die on screen. Something cartoons aren't usually allowed to do.

I know when I first heard about the episode, thinking it was Hawkman's first apearence, I thought he would be made out to be some legendary hero. I thought he would be made out to be this great hero from the past, a living legend who was more of a legend than Superman. I think because it took them a while to get the OK, and the build up, I thought that would have been the explanation.
but I like what they did with him. I kinda like the idea of Hawkman's origin in this series, making him an archeologist who becomes Hawkman. Sort of like how a few super heroes from back then were created, explorers or scientists who stumbled onto a something that made them into a super hero.
It feels like it sort of fits in with the way other characters are being used.
 
HR-PUFF&STUFF said:
1. adulterous affair
2. Vixen sleep over or shack-up
3. A couple of open-mouth kisses!! :eek:
4. A murder and a suicide!!

all you need is GL doing his mom and it would just like hamlit.


ouch
 
but not open mouth. There are certain guidelines that cartoons have to follow, and in the past Bruce Timm cartoons had to fallow them.
They even list them in the art of Batman the animated series.
Don't depict Child endangerment, no nudity, no religion or I guess not alot of it, not guns or I guess guns being actually fired, no blood, and stuff like that.
I mean they had Lex Luther kill alot of people using the League's laser cannon thing on their ship.
I guess that since JLU is now shown at 10:30 they can show stuff like this. I think its fine, they don't glorify it though.
 
Artistsean said:
but not open mouth. There are certain guidelines that cartoons have to follow, and in the past Bruce Timm cartoons had to fallow them.
They even list them in the art of Batman the animated series.
Don't depict Child endangerment, no nudity, no religion or I guess not alot of it, not guns or I guess guns being actually fired, no blood, and stuff like that.
I mean they had Lex Luther kill alot of people using the League's laser cannon thing on their ship.
I guess that since JLU is now shown at 10:30 they can show stuff like this. I think its fine, they don't glorify it though.
The guidelines for cable television, which has a smaller audience, is also looser than for network television, especially with cartoons that depict figures that children, presumably, watch. That was most of the reason why Timm's toons fled to CN after BATMAN BEYOND, to escape network demands that were "kiddie-obsessed".

Unfortunately, with the demise of JLU, more kid-centered cartoons, at least presuming that kids only like light, immature action fluff, are prevailing.
 
Dread said:
Unfortunately, with the demise of JLU, more kid-centered cartoons, at least presuming that kids only like light, immature action fluff, are prevailing.
So so sad. :(
 
Dread said:
The guidelines for cable television, which has a smaller audience, is also looser than for network television, especially with cartoons that depict figures that children, presumably, watch. That was most of the reason why Timm's toons fled to CN after BATMAN BEYOND, to escape network demands that were "kiddie-obsessed".

Unfortunately, with the demise of JLU, more kid-centered cartoons, at least presuming that kids only like light, immature action fluff, are prevailing.


You're my hero.
 
Warhammer said:
Ok, so Hawkman didn't turn out how many people anted him to turn out.
I wished he was a bit better also, but Dini/Timm have done so many other great things in the DCAU.


Get Over It.

:cool:

I clearly SAID that I liked about 95% of what they've done, except for their handling of the Hawks. They completely screwed them up and thoroughly degraded Hawkman, IMO. Their Hawkman is a stalker, a loser and a punk. He sucks and he's a slap in the face to both the character and to the characters fans, of which I am one, and their Hawkgirl is a nasty rut. The entire scenario is a slap in the face to everything the Hawks are supposed to be and are supposed to represent.

That said, I loved Batman: TAS, enjoyed Superman TAS and I liked most of the Justice League series except anything involving Hawkman or the Hawkgirl/John Stweart crap. It's really puzzling how they got the Supergirl/Brainac 5 relationship so right and the Hawkman/Hawkgirl relationship so wrong.
 

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