Alright, I got this.
So true. One should bring up the zero mention of the LoS in TDK when the leader brought down the freaking monorail for Christ's sake, lol. But, nothing, zilch.
Why does the LOS need to be mentioned in TDK? Because of the destruction of the monorail? Inmates escaped Arkham which is in the Narrows. It was tampered with in the narrows. Who poisoned the water? Crane and his inmates. Again, Crane was a patsy. If accused, would Crane deny that he poisoned the water, stole the microwave emitter and let the inmates roam free. Doesn't sound as convoluted or questionable as, "BATMAN KILLED ALL THESE PEOPLE, AND DENT, LET'S NOT DO ANYTHING ABOUT IT".
The League of Shadows is supposedly untraceable, correct? They're a secret organization. What evidence did Ra's leave behind that they were behind any of it? They went in with stealth (disguised as SWAT), just like they had done centuries before (unlike TDKR). Oh, that's right, he left Crane behind, the patsy, the one who thought they were going to hold the city ransom. They're ninjas with training remember (again, unlike the unfaithful TDKR).
Are we really comparing the events in the narrows to that of the Harvey Dent conspiracy? Really? Okay, let's see. If there was an investigation from the events in Begins, it goes all the way back to Crane, who isn't caught yet by TDK. He's SELLING the same compound that was distributed in the Narrows, he was also associated with the mob. There you go. Atleast the people involved weren't conveniently excluded like it is with TDKR.
I mean in TDK, aren't they still trying to clean it up the streets? Scarecrow still hasn't been apprehended, nor the inmates that have escaped.
Or do you think Bruce should have been going on and on about Ra's while he's trying to defeat the mob? I mean, there is even that reference to Ra's with the "criminals aren't complicated line". This lack of mention of the secret League of Shadows organization is NOTHING compared to where TDKR starts out after TDK. 8 years in the future with lame, convoluted explanations, if there are explanations at all.
Think of all the loose ends from Begins that are nicely, perfectly wrapped up in The Dark Knight. It's not convenient or convulted or unexplained. They're different films and stories, but they flow nicely. It's also about a year after Begins, not 8 year without any sense of it.
So you're fine with Flass being knocked out and not returning, but not Ramirez when last we see of her is her being knocked out?
Flass was a dirty cop, most people were well aware of it. Gotham finest weren't exactly squeaky clean, remember that. Is he involved with the grand scheme of things? Nope, only on the bottom level, not in the big League of Shadows scheme. Not even Falcone is involved despite desperately "wanting in". Gordon even knew that Flass was crooked.
So what becomes of him? Well, he breathes in the toxin and tries to kill a couple of innocent kids. Gordon sees this, knocks him out and handcuffs him to a pole. What really needs to be said? Stephens takes his place.
Now Ramirez? She ain't no Flass, is she? She's pretty damn integral to the plot in the end of TDK isn't she. Yes, she's also a "dirty cop", but is Flass as important as her in Begins? No. Ramirez is the reason that our hero's childhood friend is killed and the reason why Harvey Dent snaps. That's a pretty big role.
To top it off though, she is actually SPARED by the coin flip and lives to "fight another day". Now, had the outcome of TDK been different, I'd say that, she wasn't that important to the sequel BUT, the film ends with a COVER UP where Batman has taken the blame for the people Harvey Dent killed. Ramirez is also the reason the CLIMAX of the film even happens.
But then in the sequel, never a mention again? How did she feel? I'm sure she regretted it (and it was understandable, considering her mother), but she also got hit in the face by Dent's pistol? Was that forgivable? What's stopping her from ratting out Gordon and Batman, how does she even know what to say, we never see them converse. Would it ruin her reputation? Not really, everyone knows that she's "scum", we know this is a possibility in TDK.
We can make up explanations, but we don't know what happens. That IS a LOOSE end. She's much bigger than Flass, wouldn't you say?
And that's not the point. I said each film just has a new bunch of officers, so I never thought he would return.
Loeb returned from Begins. The Mayor returned from TDK. Friggin Fredericks who really has no bearing on the story other than making Bruce guilty is back for TDKR. Crane? His story ends in TDK as far as I'm concerned since he's barely used for TDKR.
Stephens is easy to replace and not mention (though it would have been cool to see more of him, he reminded me of a potential Bullock), I'll give you that. But Ramirez? Not even a mention? She's one of the reasons what transpires, transpires, along with the Joker. I don't care what Gordon would do, or wouldn't do. She literally called the Gordon's, telling them where to meet and other officers heard Gordon talking to Dent about his family. That ain't no small thing in my opinion.
Again, Gordon, like the audience knew, you can't just "sweep this up". He SAYS that. Batman also says he'll be hunted (obviously). But somehow in TDKR, it is just swept up? It is neat and tidy, no questions involved? Batman is never hunted? An investigation and man hunt on Batman never comes to fruition.
Huh?
I mean, we all knew their plan would never work, even though Batman went in with the best and noblest of intentions. It was going to fall apart, you can't just sweep it up. That's what was interesting about it. "How the hell are they going to manage that".
But TDKR makes it magical, it just magically works (like a lot of things in TDKR). They fast forward, they don't deal with the event itself, just the outcome. And how does it fall apart? Gordon, stupidly and conveniently left a letter in his pocket telling the truth. Which he kept there for days/nights and the newest, random, baddie finds it and reads it on public television. In fact, when the truth is revealed, the city that supposedly cares oh so much doesn't even react! If they do we never get to see it! Instead, we see Blake's reaction, this new character that wasn't even THOUGHT of in 2005 or 2008.
Really? That's cool with you?
If Ramirez didn't run, she would've been there in that little bit of montage where we see cops which made up of pretty much the MCU if Stephens was there as well. She wasn't, so the best guess is that she fled.
How do we know she ran. How do we know she isn't behind Stephens? How do we know she isn't in the hospital from being pistol whipped? Who found Ramirez? How does she feel about what happened the following night? Does she feel guilty?
I'd be inclined to say "who cares", but again, she's pretty damn important, for and against the whole "DENT CONSPIRACY" which TDKR has. It miraculously worked. How?
Hopefully you're making a joke.
I am. But still. Just because she isn't there, we're supposed to just figure she quit? Or was was forced out?
Other than being associated with the mob because of her mother, she seemed like a good cop. There's guilt in her face when she lets Dent go. She doesn't want to give the Gordon's away to Dent. Gordon seems pretty fond of having her in their group despite all the accusations against her.
So what happened to her?
And the kids don't really matter when Jim's wife left him with the kids in town.
To Cleveland. Yeah, I know.
That's another thing that would have been nice to have seen. It's implied that the lie ruined Barbara and Jim's marriage. Would have been nice to have seen it instead of a throwaway line. You know, some good tension and story telling. How did Gordon get all these people to shut the hell up?
He got Joker to keep his mouth shut? Reese? Engel? SWATS? Ramirez? His wife and kids (Barbara seemed to be pretty fed up with all this stuff, including Batman). All this stuff is avoided. But, before TDKR, it was certainly a pretty big deal.
Batman saved everyone? That's not the way it's called out during the events of TDKR at all, so it's not too extreme to think they could have still made Batman to be the bad guy that indeed kidnapped a family and Harvey Dent beforehand.
TDKR retcons everything and has a random like John Blake be the scripts tool for TDK's doubts and reactions.
I'm talking about TDK. Even with Batman taking the blame, how wouldn't people doubt it at the Prewitt siege? Alright, lets start with him on the rooftop.
He's been an ally thus far, Gordon puts all of his trust in him. His men (SWAT, Stephens, Ramirez, they all see this). Most were there and saw what happened at the interrogation. Batman hasn't let them down before, even though they're weary of him/blame him since the Joker makes threats because of Batman's existence.
So they're up on the rooftop. Batman has given them the location to the Prewitt building, all of them think that Dent is with them. Now, before they go in, Batman suggests they wait and let him go in, it's never that easy with the Joker. This seems pretty reasonable, right? Batman's learned from his mistakes and let's remember, he helped catch the Joker and save Dent in the first place. He just wants 5 minutes before they barge in and converge (I know Gordon is feeling guilty, but that just doesn't seem right for him to pull his gun out on Batman, after all they've been through).
So he goes in, these guys are ready to blow away the Clown thugs. Without warning, they go in. They hear Gordon talking to Harvey Dent specifically, asking where is family is. But, Dent is in there, in the Prewitt building as far as they're concerned. Then Gordon leaves. Do you see where I'm coming from?
So, they go in, but they see Batman there still. He's clearly seen protecting the "enemy" clowns, fighting the hospital "hostages, and carefully subduing threatening SWAT members. Batman DOES save everyone from harm because the SWAT end up seeing the switch, that Mike Engel and the real hostages were disguised as enemy clowns with masks with their hands taped and that the REAL enemies, the thugs were pretending to be hospital doctors.
They REALIZE this, they even say that. To top it off, Batman leaves the Joker hanging there for them to capture, they even got the spotlight on them.
So, yeah, Batman saved everyone. Any person with a brain would understand this once they saw that the clowns were really hostages. Look how many lives Batman just saved. AND he captured the Joker, the guy that's been killing cops and innocent civilians left and right.
Oh, and Dent isn't there. And some of them heard Gordon talking to Dent asking "where his family is". So what happened? What was the story that Gordon gave? We never know.
How did the lie work? That's all I'm asking. I know it does, but it shouldn't. And this isn't The Dark Knight's problem either, because it ends there. We don't see the repercussions. But TDKR? It doesn't tell us ANYTHING. It leaves you hanging. That just isn't comparable to something as minor as Flass or the secretive League of Shadows. It just isn't. There's way too many people involved including . . . THE JOKER.
The Joker just gave up? Just took a loss and is never heard from again. He's be questioned, unless the SWAT team just blew his brains out when he got up there. But the thing is, we never know. We hear Blake talking about "that night, that night 8 years ago", but it doesn't mean anything to TDK because he wasn't involved for one, and they don't go into detail of how it worked.
Again, there is a reason Joker isn't mentioned. Stop trying to make that a point when we know the point of why the character isn't mentioned.
Yeah, and the reason is Nolan didn't feel comfortable involving anything Joker I guess. I totally get that.
But story wise, that doesn't help TDKR, not the events that unfold. How are you going to mention Dent (numerous, numerous times), Rachel, Ra's (who gets a hallucination no less), the League of Shadows, Thomas Wayne, but never the Joker? The Joker is like the black sheep, the elephant in the room or whatever. HE EXISTED IN THE DARK KNIGHT.
I understand that Ledger had passed, I for one didn't want a recast or anything like that. But not even mention? Supposedly the events of TDK exist in TDKR, correct? We have Blake blabbing on about that "night 8 years ago", but no Joker?
Joker wouldn't be questioned? How did Dent get away when Joker was in the hospital? Who gave him the suit? Who gave him the gun (again, Gordon probably confiscated that but they could trace the 5 kills). Any investigation would show that something weird happened that before the conspiracy. Joker, Dent, Gordon, Batman, Ramirez.
Alright, Batman takes the blame. The city is upset. What then? A Commissioner doesn't run everything. What happened? How did this work with something as big AS THE JOKER?
And one cop who knew Batman is Bruce Wayne all along that didn't believe he would just become a murderer. That's different from cops that still believe Batman wasn't out to do good even during TDK's events.
So every cop then? Every cop felt that way. What about Stephens? Ramirez? Did they like Batman? Sure, at times they doubted him (like Ramirez at the crime scene), but what about when they were on the rooftop when Gordon "died". "He doesn't want to talk with us". They wanted to chat with him. They put their trust in him as an ally. Hell, Stephens is clapping when Dent "turns himself in" while a few other cops like Wuertz is shaking his head?
Uhhhhhhh?
So the only person that ever believed in Batman in TDK is a character we never see (in either Begins or TDK), but is also an orphan at the time, is familiar with Bruce because he can "feel it in his bones" and he saw him one time at an orphanage? (by the way, when in Begins or Dark Knight does Bruce show any signs of doing charities? I thought he was partying all the time? Making a fool of himself? Let Fox run everything? We never see him visiting orphanages? The public "Bruce Wayne" didn't care about that crap?)
I'm sorry, but to me, that's not only convoluted and convenient, but bad writing compared to the great stuff we see in Batman Begins and the Dark Knight.
Garcia knew Dent was no where to be found...so how does that help the idea that Batman couldn't have kidnapped him and also killed him in "cold blood"?
Or the Joker for that matter? Right?
It couldn't have been the Joker. I mean, it's not like he kidnapped Dent before? He'd never take Jim Gordon's family while being in a different location. It's not like the Joker was capable of grabbing Dent and Rachel while he was caged (which they Mayor clearly saw).
Naaahhhhhhh. Had to be Batman even though everything pretty much contradicts it being him. Everything really.
It's also funny at the "Harvey Dent Day" ceremony that Gordon BLATANTLY states that he's about to tell the "truth" about Harvey Dent in a worried, negative demeanor and NOBODY at the ceremony is like "hey, what are you saying, that Dent was a bad guy? Whaaaaaaat?"
But some random, made up character played by Joseph Levitt Gordon knows the whole deal and is the only one that questions it.
I don't see why you're so worked up on that but you're fine that there is zero mentioning of the League of Shadows in TDK.
Begins is wrapped up in Begins and The Dark Knight.
You're telling me, the League of Shadows and monorail (something that is easily blamed on Arkham and Crane, especially considering Crane and the inmates are on the loose and Crane planned on ransom as told by a secret organization that no one knows exists) is as big and important and unresolved as Batman taking the blame for not only the murder of Harvey Dent (which might be acceptable), but also all the people Harvey murdered? And even then, nobody would investigate and try and catch Batman? No bounty hunters? No rewards? The city wouldn't hunt down Batman and want his blood?
As the Joker would say, HA-HA-HA.
C'mon.
And besides. Not everyone thought Dent was the cleanest or greatest white night in Gotham City. What was that name everyone in the department had for him? Hmm. Initially, not even Batman and Gordon trusted him. "The less someone knows about these operations, the better". Not everyone bought into him. He even jacked an ambulance and threatened an inmate. Where would that nick name come from?
Think of that situation at 250 52nd street (where Rachel died by the way). Think of how they found Dent. Think of the people who were killed (cops at the hospital that Joker killed where Dent was), Maroni, Wuertz, etc. Think of the time frame. Batman at the Prewitt building saving everyone. The Joker. Gordon's story.
Then tell me how TDKR's explanations, or lack thereof, is anything like "oh my, what happened at the Narrows, do you think that secret organization that no one knows about is involved?" and that TDKR's story (when dealing with) Dark Knight events is any good?
Surely I'm not the only one who thinks this and I really don't think something this crucial is nitpicking. Anyone else agree with me?
Also, I'm aware this is the Catwoman vs. Catwoman thread. I'd be happy to move this conversation elsewhere as I don't want to be off topic. There are several other places we could discuss this in I think. So just let me know.