Anyone think Americans might finally start working those 'stolen' jobs?

[badgonegood]

It seems to me that we can't afford to be nitpicky anymore when it comes to the jobs we'll accept. Anyone think this economic crisis might lead to a decline in migrant work?

 

[November Rain]

it should but it'll probably lead to an increase since no one wants to take a paycut or a role reduction.

You'll need the migrants to bail you out...again...

 

[Malice]

If I get laid off....I will perform any damn job that pays my mortgage....
My pride is not too high that I wont work a job that pays much less....

 

[Ace of Knaves]

Money is money.

 

[Malice]

Money is money.

exactly....

 

[Ace of Knaves]

But the problem is that illegal immirgrants are off the books, they don't pay tax. So the firms or people they work for can pay them less and not worry about the paperwork.

Who would you rather employ? Someone who will do a days work for £40 who you don't have to sort paper work out for, you don't have to put them on the books.

Or someone who does a days work for £60 but you have to do the paperwork, pay accountants or whatever.

Yea sure the natives might charge more money, but they are paying taxes, they are contributing to the country. Illegal immigrants and sometimes legal immigrants do not pay taxes, do not contribute. So in the long term employing immigrants over natives is detrimental.

 

[November Rain]

which should arise the benefits discussed in sube's fair tax thread any....minute.....now....

 

[November Rain]

ideally what needs to happen is that the native need to underbid the migrants with pay and thats one tall order. Not only in pay but also uphold a higher level of work commitment and quality.

ultimately its the customer that decides, if they are going to go elsewhere for cheaper, a migrant worker is always going to be in demand.

 

[Ace of Knaves]

No see I don't think that's right. Why should the natives get payed less just because an immigrant will work for less? As I've explained, the natives SHOULD be payed more because they contribute with taxes, VAT and what not. The majority of immigrants, legal and illegal get payed cash in hand, that's why they work for less.

The ones who work for less than national minimum pay MUST be being payed cash in hand.

 

[November Rain]

marrying logic and capitalism will never work

money talks and everyone is happy to remain ignorant as long as they can get what they want for cheaper.

I also don;t think they work for less due to that, they work for less because they normally have better work ethics and can make up for it via the hours and the majority of their money is being sent to other countries where it still contributes to a decent lifestyle.

money and morals don't mix, look how many high street shops still employ slave and child labour from other parts of the world but turn a blind eye to it because we'll no longer pay the uk's goign labour rate for a pair of jeans.

 

[Ace of Knaves]

It's nothing to do with morals.

Why should a person who jumps straight off the boat who works for peanuts but doesn't pay taxes, who doesn't contribute to the economy in the long run, get a job ahead of a native person who pays taxes and contributes to the country?

And yea I should be paid more than a immigrant, because I have qualifications in my trade when a immigrant probably doesn't.

If a immigrant comes over here and has something to offer the country like a qualification or a trade then fine, no worries. That's how Australia does it and they have one of the best immigration systems in the world. They don't let any ol tom dick and harry into their country like America and in particular Britain does.

 

[November Rain]

the reason migrants get jobs in the first place is either because we're too proud to do them ourselves (lack of interest in field) or they can do it for cheaper.

A business' goal is not to provide economic stabilisation, it's too make as much money as it.

ask anyone who has hired a migrant or any major organisation which has shipped departments overseas or why the uk imports products which are homegrown.

It's all about the cash.

it's not like even the big companies pay their fare amount of tax, they pay people hundreds of thousands to hide them in charities and offshore accounts and extort any loop hole in the law.

an immigrant is only goign to get work if a brit hires them, if money is seeping out of our economy, it's not the immigrants fault but their boss and also us as a customer.

i'm not particularly fussed about qualifications, i've been in university 7 1/2 years but i'm no smarter than when i came in. The proof of the pie is in the eating, if a migrant can do a job, they can do a job. It still comes down to a boss whether they do, give it to a natie or outsource the work to another country to do.

 

[Ace of Knaves]

Yea I know, it is the people hiring thems fault. I work in construction, I see it all the time.

A firm will have two applicants, one British, one Polish. If he wants to hire the British guy he has gotta worry about national minimum wage and sorting out the taxes. But why would he do that when he can hire the Polish guy for less than minimum wage and not worry about taxes or anything? That is ****ing wrong, it's a disgrace. Some immigrant is taking a British fellows job and the immigrant isn't even paying taxes!! Yea in the short term the job gets done, but in the long term, this immigrant isn't contributing to the National Insurance or nothing. Untill that attitude changes then we will see a lot more unemployed British people and the economy will get worse.

And trust me, there is millions of Brits out there who are willing to work their arse off and pay taxes. But they are getting overlooked because some greedy suits don't want to pay them higher wages and don't want to pay tax.

 

[November Rain]

there are plenty of tax dodging brits as well but they still want the same rate as the tax payers so they get undercut by migrants.

it still all comes down to money, a boss will hire the best possible client he can get for the lowest amount of money.

If brits want to stay in the game and really help the economy get back on its feet, they need to realise the migrants are undercutting them and be willing to work for less.

To be fair, if people were willing to work on a bartering system or a 'good gesture' system for a few months, a credit crisis would not happen but the slow down is all because the lack of money flow stops people working.

Personally i think people should work for free (let alone mininmum wage) for a month of two to kick start everything again.

 

[Ace of Knaves]

No, the ONLY migrants that are undercutting Brits are the ones who get cash in hand. How do you fail to realize this? If an immigrant is on the books, is paying taxes then they must be getting national minimum wage like a lot of Brits are.

The immigrants who literally get paid peanuts MUST be dodging taxes. So Brits shouldn't have to down to that level and STILL pay tax.

Why should I get paid the same amount or less than someone who is not paying taxes when I have to pay tax?

 

[November Rain]

a cash in hand migrant is no different to a company outsourcing it's workforce to another country, it's just the semantics of where they are staying.

and yes, brits too also get cash in hand jobs. I myself had one because i was cheaper than a) getting a tax paying adult and b) getting a migrant adult (child labour is a *****).

Even if you are paying a migrant worker minimum wage, they are still going to undercut a brit worker because they are willing to work longer hours with less breaks. The brits are still getting outbid on work ethic

and while you're concentrating on tax, I'm concentrating on the take home income because it's more important for an economy to keep its money within itself (keeps other businesses ticking over). If migrants keep taking money out of the economy, then the likely hood of it kickstarting soon is very slim.

at least if the natives take the jobs, their full contribution can be used in rebuilding other businesses, not just tax but home spending as well.

 

[Ace of Knaves]

Well yea I agree with the last couple of paragraphs.

But for every Brit that is not willing to work hard, is sponging off benefits there is an immigrant doing the same. I know immigrants work hard, I've witnessed it on site. But so what? Yea some Polish builder might work harder than a British builder, but that British building is paying tax, is keeping his money in our economy. The Polish fella, hard worker or not, is not paying tax, he could be sending his money to his family in Poland, he is not helping the economy in the long run. That's what we need, not quick fixes here and there.

 

[November Rain]

alright, what do you suggest as a solution?

 

[Paradoxium]

alright, what do you suggest as a solution?

Get into an economic crisis so they will run back home... I wish I were joking but apparently the Mexicans are doing just that

 

[Ace of Knaves]

Well I don't really know. i don't think there is much we can do. Nothing will change untill these firms change their attitudes. They just want to make a quick buck or save a quick buck is a better way of putting it. But they are damaging the economy in the long run, maybe they realize this, maybe they don't. But I don't see anything changing any time soon. We'll see more job cuts, more native people being unemployed. People thought the Olympic project would create new jobs for British people, well that hasn't happened because the firms would rather employ someone who will work for cheaper, and plus they don't have to sort out their taxes and N.I and whatever.

 

[November Rain]

PARADOXIUM, isnt an economic crisis where they can flourish because everyone is looking for cheaper alternatives?

 

[November Rain]

Well I don't really know. i don't think there is much we can do. Nothing will change untill these firms change their attitudes. They just want to make a quick buck or save a quick buck is a better way of putting it. But they are damaging the economy in the long run, maybe they realize this, maybe they don't. But I don't see anything changing any time soon. We'll see more job cuts, more native people being unemployed. People thought the Olympic project would create new jobs for British people, well that hasn't happened because the firms would rather employ someone who will work for cheaper, and plus they don't have to sort out their taxes and N.I and whatever.

It's quite simple

outbid the competition or remove them but you can't beat them at their own game.

even if you do remove them, the rise in employment costs will see projects costing more, meaning the prices will go up (god forbid a company would reduce their profit margins) which means even less people in a crisis will be able to purchase things, leading to a perpetual state of decline we have today.

it's all about having a positive attitude, eating some humble pie and working for peanuts.

 

[Paradoxium]

PARADOXIUM, isnt an economic crisis where they can flourish because everyone is looking for cheaper alternatives?

Being a money merc capitalist ****e, I would say in theory yes. But the problem is, most of the jobs the Mexicans were taking was construction. Now that the real estate bubble exploded, there is no much lowly labor jobs like construction for them to do. America doesn't have much of a manufacturing base either (which in theory, they would take as an alternative). This is why they are running home.

 

[Ace of Knaves]

And another big problem is this. A lot of people on benefits, British and immigrants would rather just sit on their arse and get handouts. You know why? Because they will be financially better off on benefits than actually working. A couple who have 2 kids could receive 2 grand a month on benefits. But if one of the adults went out and got a job the benefits would be stopped. So they are going to think "Hang on, I can sit on my arse and get 2 grand for free, or I can go out and get a job and only get 1 grand." What are they gonna choose?

And this takes the cake. You hear about that Iraqi immigrant with 5 kids or whatever? She has got a 6 bedroom mansion all paid for by the taxpayer. She is better off than the majority of hard working families. And all she does is sit on her arse and she wasn't even born here!!! Unbelievable. And no it doesn't stop there. She actually had the cheek to complain that the mansion which she got for free, is too big to clean!!!! Disgrace, absolute disgrace. Labour are ****ing idiots.

 

[Ace of Knaves]

It's quite simple

outbid the competition or remove them but you can't beat them at their own game.

even if you do remove them, the rise in employment costs will see projects costing more, meaning the prices will go up (god forbid a company would reduce their profit margins) which means even less people in a crisis will be able to purchase things, leading to a perpetual state of decline we have today.

it's all about having a positive attitude, eating some humble pie and working for peanuts.

I'm sure a lot of people would work for cheaper.

But why should I, a native, someone who has NVQs in bricklaying, work for cheaper than some bloke who has just hopped off a boat, who doesn't have any official qualifications and who doesn't pay tax?