Are American Comics Dying?

[Karelia]

I've seen quite a few articles and videos discussing declining sales of American Comics (I guess mainly centering around the big two, Marvel & DC.) . I've seen videos of people showing the top 20 Comic Book sales for last month, and it was all manga. Usually Batman or Spiderman is in there, but alas... not to be seen. If the sales are bad, what do you think Marvel & DC need to do? Because people seem to still be interested in the medium of comics, as manga & anime are super popular.

I think it's time for new characters in both of the universes. Not just someone taking over a legacy character, such as Green Lantern, Batman, Superman, Flash, Spiderman, etc. Brand new characters and Origins. Also, the prices of a single issue can get up to the range of 5 to 6 dollars, which is pretty high. I'm the type to wait on graphic novels these days. Maybe start doing straight up graphic novels? I know DC has their Earth One line, Which I've enjoyed a good bit of what I have read.


Anyways, I'm just spitballing.

Are American Comics really dying? If they are, what do you see as a solution to help sales?

If someone could link me to a site that shows the sales of comics/mangs comparison that would be awesome.

 

[super85]

The monthly books and the direct market yes. Comics sell decently in many markets, like for example european comics, and the manga stuff. But the north american direct market is doing pretty poorly. Several reasons, years of mediocre stories, the pandemic, unprofessional people working on the books more into hanging out on social media instead of writing and promoting their stuff.

WB/AT&T constantly getting rid of people at DC isnt a great sign either.


Exact sales are hard to find, as a comicbook store can buy 100 copies on something that stays on shelf for years.

In general this this is one of the sites for comic sales

Comichron: A Resource for Comics Research!

havent checked for any manga-comparisons.

 

[Milk Tray Guy]

Like you I'm a trade waiter, so I'm a bit out of touch with the cost of single comics. Your point about new characters is interesting though. DC tried it a while back with their 'New Age of Heroes' line spinning out of the aftermath of Dark Nights: Metal. All-new characters, with hardly any legacy stuff. They met with mixed success;

Damage -- January 18, 2018 – April 17, 2019 -- Issues: 1–16 (plus 1 annual)

The Silencer -- February 1, 2018 – June 26, 2019 -- Issues: 1–18 (plus 1 annual)

Sideways -- February 15, 2018 – February 27, 2019 -- Issues: 1–13 (plus 1 annual)

The Terrifics -- March 1, 2018 – September 1, 2020 -- Issues: 1–30 (plus 1 annual)

The Curse of Brimstone -- April 4, 2018 – March 7, 2019 -- Issues: 1-12 (plus 1 annual)

The Immortal Men -- April 11 – September 14, 2018 -- Issues: 1–6

New Challengers -- May 16 – October 17, 2018 -- Issues: 1–6

The Unexpected -- June 6, 2018 – January 9, 2019 -- Issues: 1–8

The concepts and execution of some (The Silencer, The Terrifics) were superb IMO, with Silencer being hands-down the best genuinely all-new title I've read in many, many years. Others weren't that great (The Unexpected, The New Challengers). Part of the problem was big name creators being announced, only for them to jump ship from the title pretty soon after launch.

I think another problem is announcements that come across simply as blatant attempts to improve readership, or test concepts for the next movie and merchandise deal. Obviously we all know that's the bottom line, but many older events (Crisis on Infinite Earths is a good example) also struck home as tales that people wanted.to be there for, to be a part of. Maybe the current situation is due in part at least to comics readers being more cynical. But perhaps they're entitled to be, given the number of controversial editorial decisions over recent years (I didn't hate the guy, but Dan DiDio is one figure who could perhaps best be described as 'polarising')..

I'll add that I read DC and Dynamite, and occasionally some Zenescope. So any views I have on this come from that perspective.

 

[KRYPTON INC.]

It comes right down to cost in my opinion.

I saw this years ago at a book store in downtown Brooklyn in the early 2000's when Manga and anime was making it's biggest inroads to the U.S. market.

I was waiting for a movie to start and was doodling around the book store. Went to the section that was dedicated to Marvel/DC stuff.

The usual suspects were all there. You had the trades for all the old classic best sellers like TDKR, Death/Return Of Superman, Age of Apocalypse, Kingdom Come and stuff that was more current like Avengers: Disassembled or the Johns rejuvination of the GL mythos with Rebirth and Sinestro Corps. War.

But the section this was all in was actually quite small. The MCU and Nolan's TDK had just started but the interest in buying the home media of Anerican super heroes was waning.

Now... The Manga section dwarfed the DC and Marvel stuff by a couple of magnitudes. The Shelf space for that stuff just seemed to go on and on while the American heroes could barely eak out 6 feet by 6 feet of display area.

I was familiar with Manga from some stuff that had dripped into the country from the 90's when I actually worked at a comic book store as a high school student. I had even recently got a subscription to Shonen Jump out of curiosity to familiarize myself with so many new pop culture entities being imported to the States.

What surprised me was that you had to "re-learn" the skill of reading graphic literature because the Mangas were being produced in the way they would originally be read, right to left.

And that's telling. Manga has HIGH hurdles to overcome. Yeah, many are tied with some anime adaptation and that helps a lot in cutting through to the audience. But a young person in the 21st Century is getting into something:

Printed on inferior paper as compared to American Comics.

Not produced in color.

Filled with cultural references alien to their experience.

To even read it they must reorient their very skill at reading a comic.


And yet none of that seems to big a leap for those enjoying it.

And I can't help feel that price as well is a big factor. Whether a fan buying for themselves or a parent picking up the tab compare what you get for your buck between the two. For the price of one issue put out by American publishers which may at best max out at, what... 32-42 pages? Yeah for what the cost of a Marvel DC book is on the manga side you can get an old phone book's worth of material.

I think that the very format of American Comics needs to be rethought. If total conversion to digital publishing isn't in the cards yet then a rethinking of how a physical comic is has to be on the table with cost being a prime target. The reasons for comics popularity in the culture originally stemmed from how cheap it was to produce and purchase. This needs to be brought back in my view.

1. Keep comics in color but go back to a cheaper stock of paper and production in general. Artists etc. will kvetch but too bad. They'll have to adapt. I would have it that the monthly issues be done this way and collected versions be on glossy higher quality paper and with better color. If the price for individual issues comes down then more young fans will get involved and more established fans will return.

2. There needs to be more material in each individual issue. 22 to 32 pages was ok for 30 years ago but given prices it just won't cut it today.

All that I've laid out is easier said than done. I know... But at this point the industry needs to swing for the fences even if it is very disruptive of the status quo as we have grown used to.

 

[InCali]

I think books in general may (sadly) be, large scale, on the way out. I have a substantial comic book and book collection, but I think as we go forward, the vast majority of people won't see the allure of having physical reading material. Sort of like how movie collections may move away from physical media. I hope I'm wrong.

 

[Milk Tray Guy]

I think books in general may (sadly) be, large scale, on the way out. I have a substantial comic book and book collection, but I think as we go forward, the vast majority of people won't see the allure of having physical reading material. Sort of like how movie collections may move away from physical media. I hope I'm wrong.

That would be a real shame. I'm very proud of my physical collection and I enjoy adding to it - especially if I've finally managed to track down something I've been after for a long time.

 

[Primal Slayer]

Comics are like Soap Operas and they refuse to change. I think comics would benefit from having "seasons" just like tv shows do. Have a dedicated team for X amount of issues and stick with that team for those x amount of issues to tell a dedicated story with a beginning and ending. 12 issues max per "season"

Also the big 2, specifically DC really dont allow you to connect to their heroes anymore, its business all the time for their characters instead of allowing them to live a life.

 

[Milk Tray Guy]

Unreasonable or extended publishing delays frustrate, annoy, and alienate readers. They get heavily invested in a title - then things suddenly grind to a halt. Delays of many months aren't unknown. Or a publisher announces a new title, only to cancel it a few months down the line, saying it was never intended to be a regular series - despite there having been nothing in the marketing to say so. Dynamite have been heavily criticised for both of these. There are comments on Dynamite forums from people saying they've had enough of investing time and money in titles that just disappear, and that until the publisher is honest/clear upfront about their new books they won't be buying them.

Do these same problems (delays, cancellations) affect manga?

 

[Sithborg]

lol, yeah. There are delays in manga. Sometimes in terms of years. Hunter x Hunter looks to have had a 3 year gap between a collection. I know Bleach had some bad delays in that last arc.

 

[Karelia]

All of you guys really brought up valid points! I never got any notice that people were commenting on the thread for whatever reason.

 

[InCali]

That would be a real shame. I'm very proud of my physical collection and I enjoy adding to it - especially if I've finally managed to track down something I've been after for a long time.

I used to be able to go downtown Santa Cruz to the used book stores (Logos being the larger one with a plethora of used books). I got SO many nice books there just browsing around. I got this version of The Hobbit (first one on the list of the following URL) there years ago. It's one of my favorites of my entire Tolkien collection.

Photos/The Hobbit

Logos had 2 large floors of books (including comics) and records of virtually any kind. Unfortunately,

Logos, a beloved Santa Cruz bookstore, falls victim to a changing retail economy – Santa Cruz Sentinel

Another Santa Cruz institution gone. It had been there since the 1960s.

 

[InCali]

BTW, what are your favorite comics that you have? I have 2 that I picked up used years ago for not that much money in a used comic book store down by MacArthur Park in LA. Daredevil #1 and Spiderman #15 (the introduction of Kraven the Hunter). I also have some old Fantastic Four (intro to the Inhumans story and working with Daredevil against Doom when they lose their powers).

I don't want to hijack the thread, but it seems sorta related. It would be sad if we couldn't buy stuff like this anymore......I could see them going digital.

 

[antsman41]

I only buy Image and some random series from Boom! and such… I over DC rebooting Batman again and rehashing stories fro the 90’s and 2000’s.

I’ll catch up on Daredevil and and Spider-Man here and there though.

 

[Milk Tray Guy]

@InCali That Hobbit 1st edition looks really nice (love the error on the cover!). All those editions look beautiful - you're obviously a major fan!

It's really sad when shops that we've loved for so long disappear.


Definitely some cool comics bargains you've got there I buy pretty much all trades now. Some of my favourites; Absolute Kingdom Come, Deluxes of Crisis on Infinite Earths (plus the three companion volumes) and Mad Love. Also, a first printing of Batman:The Killing Joke (which I bought new in 1988 - and thankfully looked after!). Non DC, several volumes of Vampirella and Project Superpowers (Dynamite), and Hack/Slash (Image).

I'll occasionally read a comic online, but if there's something special I've been after for a long time I'll resist the urge and wait till I own it.

Physical forever!

 

[InCali]

@InCali That Hobbit 1st edition looks really nice (love the error on the cover!). All those editions look beautiful - you're obviously a major fan!

It's really sad when shops that we've loved for so long disappear.


Definitely some cool comics bargains you've got there I buy pretty much all trades now. Some of my favourites; Absolute Kingdom Come, Deluxes of Crisis on Infinite Earths (plus the three companion volumes) and Mad Love. Also, a first printing of Batman:The Killing Joke (which I bought new in 1988 - and thankfully looked after!). Non DC, several volumes of Vampirella and Project Superpowers (Dynamite), and Hack/Slash (Image).

I'll occasionally read a comic online, but if there's something special I've been after for a long time I'll resist the urge and wait till I own it.

Physical forever!

Yeah. I was a regular at Logos and found some real treasures. If you read the article, you get an idea of just how big it was. They had tables and chairs and you could browse for hours. I'd trade in old books and get new ones. I really enjoyed the ambiance and no one really cared that I made it my personal cocktail lounge. LOL. Good times and probably not to be seen again. At the old location across from the Cooper House, it was just steps away from the patio of the Cooper House where you could listen to live jazz and have drinks all afternoon (our nickname for it was the Stupor House....when we were gonna go, we'd say "Let's go get stupored" ). I got some comics there too, but that was later and the didn't have much from the 60s (which is mainly my collection).

 

[Milk Tray Guy]

Yeah. I was a regular at Logos and found some real treasures. If you read the article, you get an idea of just how big it was. They had tables and chairs and you could browse for hours. I'd trade in old books and get new ones. I really enjoyed the ambiance and no one really cared that I made it my personal cocktail lounge. LOL. Good times and probably not to be seen again. At the old location across from the Cooper House, it was just steps away from the patio of the Cooper House where you could listen to live jazz and have drinks all afternoon (our nickname for it was the Stupor House....when we were gonna go, we'd say "Let's go get stupored" ). I got some comics there too, but that was later and the didn't have much from the 60s (which is mainly my collection).

Sounds like good times

 

[Karelia]

Looks like the new Spawn comics are really taking off in sales. I saw King Spawn is nearing 500,000 in total sales. To put in perspective, Action Comics #1000 sold 504,200 copies.

 

[Milk Tray Guy]

Looks like the new Spawn comics are really taking off in sales. I saw King Spawn is nearing 500,000 in total sales. To put in perspective, Action Comics #1000 sold 504,200 copies.

That's pretty impressive.

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

I think the US comic industry is oversaturated.

There's a very finite number of consumers who can afford a weekly supply of comics at 3 or 4 dollars a pop.

Also comics have alot more competition than back in the 80's and 90's.

Kids these days would rather play COD or Fortnite for the millionth time than beg their parents for comic book money every week. Then you have a dozen streaming services with hundreds of shows to choose from.

 

[Milk Tray Guy]

Also comics have alot more competition than back in the 80's and 90's.

Good point. And it's not just from alternative forms of entertainment. Comics are competing against each other, massively. I mean it's always been the case that rival publishers try to top the opposition; but the sheer volume of very popular stuff now put out by companies other than the big two is providing consumers with far more options. So, the more publishers there are attracting strong market share, the more diluted the overall revenue becomes. The industry could be doing well, but individual publishers could still find their profits suffering.

 

[Sithborg]

It is a good thing for the industry to not be dominated by the big 2.

Also, the sooner Diamond loses its monopolistic grip on distribution, the better.

 

[Milk Tray Guy]

It is a good thing for the industry to not be dominated by the big 2.

I don't know that their domination will ever end (as long as they're publishing), but I love some of the stuff from other companies.

 

[super85]

It would be good for the entire industry if there was a lot of excitement for both DC and Marvel. Unfortunately there is very little of that. It makes sense why there isn't, most of their output is boring and lacks energy. The fact that a big chunk of the top creators abandom ship to stuff like Substack and Crowd Funding will not help either.

 

[Sithborg]

It would be good for the entire industry if there was a lot of excitement for both DC and Marvel. Unfortunately there is very little of that. It makes sense why there isn't, most of their output is boring and lacks energy. The fact that a big chunk of the top creators abandom ship to stuff like Substack and Crowd Funding will not help either.

Its because the big companies pay ****.

Though, the gaters kickstarter chaos is funny to watch.

 

[DoomRulz]

Its because the big companies pay ****.

Though, the gaters kickstarter chaos is funny to watch.

What chaos are you referring to?