Are the gods in Marvel, really gods?

[MarvelWarrior]

I've always wondered about this because it's interesting how mortals can do harm to them. Like the Hulk. He's not a god, but is one of the most powerful mortals out there. Same as Thanos. Both these characters have gone toe 2 toe with Asgardians and have held their own. What do you guys think?

 

[The Question]

Yes. It's been stated pretty clearly on several occasions that they are gods and their divinity makes them distinct from powerful beings of the "mundane" world (as much as that word means in the MU) like Hulk and Thanos. They are metaphysically tied to the cosmic and elemental forces of the universe, and share some kind of spiritual, symbiotic relationship with humans and the Earth that has been much more vaguely defined in the MU than in, say DC, but none the less exists. They are not the creators of the Earth or the Universe, but they are tied to those forces and are thus divine. They are however also physical beings, and, especially in the case of the Asgardians who have alsays been closer to humans than other gods, they have physical limitations.

 

[Anubis]

What is a "God" really? It's just a being of great power that people worshiped at some point or another. That's all the word means. Doesn't denote some unbeatable aura, or omnipotence. None of that. Thor, Herc, Ares, They are in fact "God's". The thing you have to understand is that that doesn't really mean anything in the grand scheme of things.

 

[The Question]

What is a "God" really? It's just a being of great power that people worshiped at some point or another. That's all the word means. Doesn't denote some unbeatable aura, or omnipotence. None of that. Thor, Herc, Ares, They are in fact "God's". The thing you have to understand is that that doesn't really mean anything in the grand scheme of things.

I think it is a pretty valid question, actually. I would think that a god would have some aspect of divinity to their being, some connection to or place in the deeper workings of the universe that goes beyond having some kind of super power and is both physical, psychological, and spiritual, and is an integral part of their identity and purpose. More than simply being powerful and being worshiped.

 

[Anubis]

And yet, it isn't. Kinda. I mean, there are really powerful Gods. Elder Gods. Like Gaea or Cytorrak. Beings that would literally blow guys like Hulk or whoever away like they were nothing. But then you got all these other lesser Gods, like Thor, Ares, Athena, and hell, you could throw Zeus and Odin in there too. I mean, they're powerful. Powerful enough to slap regular Superhero types around, but they pale in comparison to the Elder Gods. And those guys are probably chumps compared to the the Celestials or any of those other high end cosmic beings. Space Gods basically. There is some, universal, connection to them and all that, but it's not as big a deal as one might think....in the grand scheme of things. Remember, Science, Magic, all that stuff works within the universe. Why is it so hard to believe that a product of Science could trump a product of magic? They're both just different ways of creating somebody or something really powerful to punch the f**k outta something or whatever.

I always liked DC's explanation of Gods as dreams who gained sentience and draw their power from being worshiped.

 

[Lucien]

Neil Gaiman did it best in The Sandman how his gods live and die by the worship of humans. Bast lived a wretched, feeble life in the modern world where she was a fraction of her former self, but was able to restore her form briefly from a young boy seeing a show cat and thinking it was the most beautiful thing he'd seen. Same with the goddess who survived by becoming a stripper and gaining a kind of worship from ogling men.

Incredible Hercules touched upon this during the assault on Mount Olympus. Typhon explained how back during the height of Zeus' power, human worship had allowed him to lift a mountain and use it to bury him.

 

[The Question]

And yet, it isn't. Kinda. I mean, there are really powerful Gods. Elder Gods. Like Gaea or Cytorrak. Beings that would literally blow guys like Hulk or whoever away like they were nothing. But then you got all these other lesser Gods, like Thor, Ares, Athena, and hell, you could throw Zeus and Odin in there too. I mean, they're powerful. Powerful enough to slap regular Superhero types around, but they pale in comparison to the Elder Gods. And those guys are probably chumps compared to the the Celestials or any of those other high end cosmic beings. Space Gods basically. There is some, universal, connection to them and all that, but it's not as big a deal as one might think....in the grand scheme of things. Remember, Science, Magic, all that stuff works within the universe. Why is it so hard to believe that a product of Science could trump a product of magic? They're both just different ways of creating somebody or something really powerful to punch the f**k outta something or whatever.

I always liked DC's explanation of Gods as dreams who gained sentience and draw their power from being worshiped.

I kind of got lost near the end, what exactly does science VS. magic have to do with it?

Like I was saying, I don't think power level is the only indicator here. Hulk may be able to pose a physical threat to Thor, but he's not a piece of the turning of the 'verse like Thor is.

 

[MarvelWarrior]

See for me, when I hear gods, I think of beings that no one should be able to battle whether's it's physically or mentally. I was always curious as to why Thor would struggle against the Hulk (Green or Red). I know Hulk is the strongest mortal on Earth but I've always felt Thor should outclass him. Now, I don't mind that they have standstill fights. I was just wondering if Marvel ever explained how their god characters can be harmed by mortals. Heck, even at times other supernatural beings seem to struggle with mortals.

Keep the discussion going, some good things coming from you guys and I appreciate it.

 

[The Question]

I think that part of the issue is how the word god has evolved in it's meaning. In a culture heavily influenced by abrahamic religions, the word god means all powerful. But pagan gods, especially the Norse gods, often had quantifiable physical limitations when walking among mortals. They were considered gods because they were in some way responsible and/or an aspect of the functions of the universe, not because they were all powerful.

 

[Anubis]

I kind of got lost near the end, what exactly does science VS. magic have to do with it?

Like I was saying, I don't think power level is the only indicator here. Hulk may be able to pose a physical threat to Thor, but he's not a piece of the turning of the 'verse like Thor is.

I was just pointing out Science because he was wondering how regular mortal superheroes could harm "Gods" and you know, seeing as most of em are products of Science, It's as good a point as any to bring up.

See for me, when I hear gods, I think of beings that no one should be able to battle whether's it's physically or mentally. I was always curious as to why Thor would struggle against the Hulk (Green or Red). I know Hulk is the strongest mortal on Earth but I've always felt Thor should outclass him. Now, I don't mind that they have standstill fights. I was just wondering if Marvel ever explained how their god characters can be harmed by mortals. Heck, even at times other supernatural beings seem to struggle with mortals.

Keep the discussion going, some good things coming from you guys and I appreciate it.

Your idea of what the term "God" means doesn't really match with the reality of the MU.

 

[Midnyte_Sun]

No, they are actually formless Aliens from outer-space who thrive in the psyche of Earth's inhabitants and live the roles that they create for them. Earth X's, although being an alternate reality, made more sense than the irrationality of Gods.

 

[Lucien]

That worked for Earth X, but I like my Gods to be actual Gods. You don't have to read much Marvel to see that the 616 Gods aren't super advanced aliens. The new Chaos War preview for example clearly shows otherwise with Mikaboshi et al.

 

[Anubis]

No, they are actually formless Aliens from outer-space who thrive in the psyche of Earth's inhabitants and live the roles that they create for them. Earth X's, although being an alternate reality, made more sense than the irrationality of Gods.

Hold on tight, Corpys gonna come in here and tear you a new one.

(I always liked that explanation too.)

 

[The Question]

Hold on tight, Corpys gonna come in here and tear you a new one.

(I always liked that explanation too.)

I do too, I just enjoy them being legit pagan gods equally as much. I think the Earth X origin worked best in the context of Earth X's story and themes, but in 616 and in Thor's solo series, the pagan mystical origin works better.

 

[Anubis]

Yeah, that's the way I feel about it.

 

[Daredevil]

Na I always figured that they were just a race of incredibly powerful people (we dont know where they got their power from) and were eventually worshiped by the Norse people as "gods"

 

[The Question]

Na I always figured that they were just a race of incredibly powerful people (we dont know where they got their power from) and were eventually worshiped by the Norse people as "gods"

But we do know their origins. Their origins have been explained in great detail. And the short version of it is that they are legit pagan gods.

 

[Anubis]

Pagan God's who were trapped in an endless cycle of death and rebirth to fuel greater Gods. Though the actual story of who and what they are has never truly been explained. I mean, Odin didn't create Midgard from the body of some dead Storm Giant. That would actually be a good story for them to do. Just what is the true origin of the Gods? I like the thought that they form from various God stuff that exists on most sentient planets. (Which is why most Sentient planets have their own Gods.)

 

[The Question]

Pagan God's who were trapped in an endless cycle of death and rebirth to fuel greater Gods. Though the actual story of who and what they are has never truly been explained. I mean, Odin didn't create Midgard from the body of some dead Storm Giant. That would actually be a good story for them to do. Just what is the true origin of the Gods? I like the thought that they form from various God stuff that exists on most sentient planets. (Which is why most Sentient planets have their own Gods.)

Maybe it got retconned out, but I remember reading a very detailed history of the gods of the MU in an issue of the Marvel Universe Handbook once.

 

[Anubis]

So how did that s**t go down?

 

[The Question]

So how did that s**t go down?

Well, the details are fuzzy, but the gist of it was:

In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth. And then all of that book of Gensis crap went down, but shortly after the creation of everything a much cooler thing happened when the elder gods came forth from the stuff of creation. Some were benevolent. Some were evil. Most were indifferent *****es. Counted among their number were Gaia, ancestor of the Greek pantheon, and Set, who's legacy would be known in ancient Egypt. They mucked about around pre-historic Earth for a while, being all Lovecraftian and stuff. Then set created Dinosaurs, and Gaia thought they sucked so she wiped them all out and allowed humans to become the dominant life form. Set thought this was a dick move, and he and Gaia become eternal enemies. As time went on, lesser gods, some formed from the same god stuff as the elder gods, some their direct descendants through good old fashioned boning, came to be, lesser in power and age than the elder gods but no less children of the forces of the cosmos. They ruled over the planet with which they shared a symbiotic relationship, and the humans on the Earth began to worship these living forces of nature. And then ancient history happened and then the abrahamic religions became a thing and then Thor got his own comic book.

I might have forgotten a thing or two. It was also said somewhere at some point that the gods share a symbiotic relationship with humans, shaping and influencing each other.

 

[Hush]

That sounds ****ing cool, I want that in my hands Question!

 

[Anubis]

Yeah, that's a damn good explanation.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

It was all explained in Thor Annual #10. The "forces of the cosmos" Q is talking about is actually a force native to all planets. On Earth, it's called the Demiurge, which Gaia either used or mated with to create Atum/Demagorge as a means of wiping out her fellow gods in order to make Earth safe for mankind. That's why Demagorge is called "the god-eater." 'Cause he literally eats gods. I think he's also supposed to be the Atum of Egyptian mythology, but I don't think the comics were ever 100% clear on that.

This stuff all comes from the late '70s/early '80s, back when all the other pantheons of gods were popping up as the Celestials' Fourth Host came to judge Earth. Tons of groundwork for the gods was laid then. We learn about Odin, Zeus, and the other leaders of the gods forming the Council Elite of Godheads (which we've seen a lot of lately in Incredible Hercules and Prince of Power) as a means of combating the Celestials after they met the Third Host a thousand years ago, Thor learns that Gaia is his real mother, the Destroyer (powered by every Asgardian soul except Thor's) gets owned by the Celestials, the concept of the gods going through death/rebirth cycles is introduced, we learn that energy from one pantheon can be donated to resurrect other gods, and some other stuff. Also, they make it clear that the gods after the Elder Gods had their appearances molded by the thoughts of humans, but their power is not directly tied to the humans in the sense that more worship = more power. Although, fun fact, Thor (and any other god) can mystically hear whenever someone is praying to him. Good times.

 

[Scourge2099]

Which gods do you think are more powerful , the Marvel gods or the DC gods ?