Arrow General Discussion Thread - - - - Part 18

Discussion in 'Arrow' started by Thread Manager, Feb 9, 2015.

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  1. zenith16 Registered

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    Hmmm remember what they did with "Man hunter" AKA Kate Spencer though who was Laural boss i the DA's office they killed her during Slade siege in front of brother blood unless that was another excuse to say prototype again just to have the name around .

    Any way I think they will make him leave via prison time I'm really starting to think Roy will only have development if he's put on the live action Titan's show especially after I remembered what happen with the female Man hunter / Kate Spencer District attorney lawyer they killed off on the show. well I'm not the actress was the right fit anyway. But yeah.......
     
    #926 zenith16, Mar 8, 2015
    Last edited: Mar 8, 2015
  2. Hunter Rider Ronin

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    Thea's story is just getting going and Ollie can't lose yet another family member, I'd say Malcolm or Lila will bite the dust.

    This is a bad thing?
     
  3. Loki882 Registered

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    ^No, it'd be most welcome. That "event" was horribly done to begin with.
     
  4. luis4u Registered

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    Literally everything that has happened so far on Arrow this season Because on her death. If she’s returns THEN WHAT WAS THE POINT OF ALL THIS DRAMA?
     
  5. luis4u Registered

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  6. DrCosmic Professor of Power

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    But... I knew all those things...

    Yeah. It is a sure sign of lack of ideas when the writers are compelled to go get a beloved character who has no mores story to contribute, upon whose death the current story hangs.

    Same thing if they said "Season 3 was just a fever dream." Some people would be happy, but you at the same time are staying the stories you're telling aren't important, and don't carry meaning in your universe.
     
    #931 DrCosmic, Mar 8, 2015
    Last edited: Mar 8, 2015
  7. Boy Scout Registered

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    Yes.
     
  8. Hunter Rider Ronin

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    I agree with Loki, the reason to take her out was so they could shoehorn Laurel into the Black Canary role, they have done that now and she is inferior to Sara, so bringing her back would allow them to work together and maybe spin-off into a BoP series. Everything Ra's has said clearly indicates that the Lazarus Pits are in play and if Ollie takes over as the head of the LOA he can try and use them to resurrect Sara. Hell, if she turns out like Jason Todd did she could be the nemesis of season 4.
     
  9. luis4u Registered

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    I don’t even think she was that popular during her run, people seem to remember her more fondly now that she’s dead.
     
  10. luis4u Registered

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  11. luis4u Registered

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    part 2



    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
     
  12. Boy Scout Registered

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    They didn't have to take her out of all. They made a stupid decision and they should have to deal with it.

    That sounded a lot more dramatic than I wanted it to, but you get what I mean. :o

    Make this season pointless.
     
  13. The Shape In the shadows

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    Most of the season seems pointless anyway.
     
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    [BLACKOUT]And it was the first sign of the quality nosedive of this season. Her death felt lazy, rushed and tacked on. Why she was killed makes little sense from a character perspective and Malcolm's plan about it is illogical. All her death has brought this show are stupid moments and more of a poorly executed character, the sooner she comes back and we ignore this season's existence, the better.[/BLACKOUT]
     
  15. DOBSON10 Custom User Title

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    I like this show but damn, they need a new writer to handle the dialogue, it's pretty awful.

    Sidenote: I don't miss Sara at all, hope they don't bring her back. She might look better/tougher in fight scenes but she's a pretty bad actress.
     
  16. DrCosmic Professor of Power

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    Regardless of your assumptions about their reasoning, all your ideas require sidelining the great characters that are advancing the show.

    Season 4 has a nemesis: Damian Dark, who brings in HIVE, maybe even Vandal Savage in all their glory and pushes the show in interesting new directions. But you want to take time from great story to bring Sara back to have a Jason Todd (of all characters!) ripoff.

    Laurel already has tons of people to work with and new interesting partnerships to explore. But you want to take time from those great stories to further explore a sister dynamic that is already totally explored.

    Arrowverse already has two spinoffs in the works: Vixen, and the series that includes the Atom, but you want to sideline these interesting unexplored characters in order to again get into a sister dynamic that has been well explored.

    No matter how you slice it, bringing back Sara makes the story of Arrow worse, for the sake of uplifting a fan favorite character. When you ignore where the story takes you to shoehorn a dead character back into the story that has no room for them, you basically end up ruining the shoes. I've seen this before. No amount of "awesomeness" of a character makes them right for a story that has left them behind. It's a bad idea, and it's clearly not motivated by telling the best story possible.
     
    #941 DrCosmic, Mar 8, 2015
    Last edited: Mar 8, 2015
  17. Seb We are all Bat-People

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    Honestly, I sit in the painful position where I miss Sara and all that she should have been, in this season of all seasons. She shouldn't have died because it has massively hurt the LOA story by reducing avenues for showing us who they are early on and giving us an antagonist that we at least slightly understand. However, she wouldn't have the same synergy in a HIVE story, which I expect may bring Diggle's brother back, either for flashbacks or as some sort of villain who faked his death, and thus we'll have our villain connection (which is something that I think hurt this season especially badly.)

    On the spinoff (which is where Caity Lotz will be appearing) I would be happy to see more of a character that I love, or at the least, more of an actor I enjoy (I'm already loving Atom and Firestorm's personalities, as well as Cold, so I should enjoy that one so long as the plot is workable). Here, we know very little, so there isn't a shoe to be damaged by a shoehorn, whatever the shape. Therefore, I'm going to take the same stance as I do on Supergirl: guarded optimism. The producers have shown both good and bad sides to their skills, so they could be great, or they could be a trainwreck. Guess we'll have to wait and see.

    As for Laurel and Team Arrow, if Sara comes back, I'd be completely fine with none of them finding out Sara is alive, at least for a while, if that is the case (Though it'd be nice for them to actually come up with a good reason for once.

    Finally, I just had a thought: there is a third option beyond Sara and clone/doppelganger, she could be playing a new monstrous character of some sort so that we never actually see Caity's face behind creature make-up or a mask. (I want Sara back, but it's for emotional reasons, not story ones. This would make far more sense from that standpoint.)
     
  18. luis4u Registered

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    It seems Guggenheim was asked about whether Arrow will ever get either Harley Quinn or Onomatopoeia on the series. While he dismissed Harley Quinn as a possibility, he was quick to point out that there is interest in bring Onomatopoeia to the series. For those who don't know, Onomatopoeia is this serial killer/super villain who enjoys in stalking down and killing non-powered, skill based, ordinary human superheroes/vigilantes. It will be great if Onomatopoeia is eventually brought into the series since he is one of Green Arrow's best villains. Here's the article-

    http://www.cinemablend.com/television/Arrow-Promises-One-Villain-Slams -Door-Other-70504.html
     
  19. DrCosmic Professor of Power

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    ^Guarded Optimism sounds well enough. And I think, honestly, with her on the spinoff show, it'll be more like Agents of SHIELD. It works because she's no longer part of the main story, but off on her own somewhere for hardcore fans of the character.

    I don't think so. Most of the first half of the season was great, with Malcolm out of the picture, and the mystery being an actual mystery. Guilty. Secret Origin of Felicity Smoak. Draw Back Your Bow. The Brave and the Bold, of course. The Climb. The poor quality actually revolves around Malcolm's resurrection and being thrust back into the forefront of the Ra's story and the hoops that need to be leapt through to make that "work." That's what happens when you resurrect a fan favorite character and tack on a story to try and justify it afterwards. It doesn't 'erase' the interim time when they were gone, it just hampers the show as it tries to pretend it hasn't moved on without them.

    [blackout]Sara being confused and surprised that Thea could/would kill her makes perfect sense from a character perspective. It's Malcolm being involved that doesn't make sense. If they do bring Sara back, hopefully they will leave her on the fringes, or in a spinoff, and not try to shove her back into the story like they did Malcolm. This is similar to how Coulson can kind of work on Agents of SHIELD, but it would be totally backwards and pointless if he was back in the films.[/blackout]
     
  20. Hunter Rider Ronin

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    What great characters? Ollie, Roy, Thea, Digg and Felicity are doing fine regardless of whether Sara comes back.

    I don't know who Damian Dark is and is this confirmed are just your idea? The Red Hood is one of the best story arcs of the last decade so I don't see what your issue is.

    Nothing was explored beyond the melodrama, now Laurel is developing as a fighter they'd have a lot more to do and more avenues to travel together.

    Why do you keep using plural when what you mean is Laurel, none of the other characters are benefiting from Laurel, her Nyssa and Sara in a BoP show would leave room for Team Arrow to develop Roy and Thea more and allow the core of Ollie/Felicity/Digg to get back on track.

    The story as largely been a mess this season and they already did a mini retcon mid way through. Bringing back Sara won't harm anything as there hasn't been anything this season to harm, bar Laurel which seems to be your main focus. Telling a story in a visual medium isn't like writing a book, you adapt to what works, every show does this.
     
  21. Jedi Arrow Vigilant Knight

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    I don't mind Laurel becoming the Black Canary; that was needful. However, I don't think that Sara needed to die for it to happen, either. As much as it pains me greatly to say it (because I think Det. Lance is an awesome character and was especially great in S2), I think Det. Lance should've been put in a coma after his injuries in S2, and been taken out of play for most of S3, or even died from the injuries. Sara had already given Laurel her leather jacket; with Sara gone, Laurel could've taken up the Black Canary titles because she wanted to avenge her father.

    Sara could've then been safely alive to return for guest appearances; she just would've been with the League of Assassins and thus not a factor in the story until when the Oliver v. League of Assassins plot happened. In fact, she could've even had guest appearances on Flash, if they wanted. And maybe she could've even trained Laurel ("Laurel, my place isn't in Starling, but yours is. You can take my place."). That's how I think I would have handled it. But that's just me, and I'm speaking as someone who hasn't actually seen any of S3 yet because I didn't finish S2 until January this year and I don't have TV to watch current episodes; I watch them on Netflix. Anyway, I digress. It was a thought, but it's obviously not what they did. No biggie.
     
  22. luis4u Registered

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    Season 3 of Arrow left fans at the mid-season break unsure of whether Oliver Queen (Stephen Amell) would accept Ra's al Ghul's (Matt Nable) offer to become the new leader of the League of Assassins. It's an interesting offer, considering that Ra's has a capable daughter in Nysaa (Katrina Law). In comic book lore, Ra's has traditionally made this offer to Batman and the position comes with the requirement that he marry his daughter, Talia al Ghul. Whether Oliver is required to marry Nyssa remains to be seen. However, the show's executive prodcuers have shared that Nyssa will have a role to play in giving direction to two of the show's main female leads, Thea Queen (Willa Holland) and Laurel Lance (Katie Cassidy). Andrew Kreisberg told Entertainment Weekly that Laurel and Nyssa bond in future episodes over their mutual hatred of Malcolm Merlyn (John Barrowman). Marc Guggenheim told E! that although it appeared that Thea was asking Nyssa to end her life for her role in Sara's (Caity Lotz) death, the two will also find common ground. "We're working towards telling a different story with Thea, it won't always be just her acting out. She's processing a huge amount of guilt and regret. At the end of [episode] 15, she's essentially attempting suicide by Nyssa. It's a continuing progression. It won't just be a repitition of her acting out. In [episode] 16, she looks for closure in another way because spoiler alert, Nyssa's not going to kill [Thea]."




    http://www.eonline.com/news/631198/...pire-the-good-wife-the-affair-and-morehttp://
     
  23. Joined:
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    I can't agree that the first half was great. The only great episode I've seen all season is The Brave and the Bold, the rest ranged from painful to mediocre.
     
  24. Arrowshieldfan Registered

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    Thea joining the league of assassin? I could see that happen or just training from Nyssa who would probably be a better teacher in becoming a "stronger woman"
     
  25. DrCosmic Professor of Power

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    Who cares if they're doing fine? I don't watch TV to see everyone be okay, do you? But yes, those are the great characters (Thea still needs some work) that I'm talking about.

    Ausiello says the next guy is "Damien Dark." Here. Those guys there decided he really meant something else and not Damien Darhk of H.I.V.E fame because they, like you, and I before you clicked on that link, did not know who Damien Dark is either.

    The Rood Hood's story quality is debatable, but more importantly, it derives power from it's context: a hated character revived as a villain to fight a Batman who doesn't have (m?)any new interesting stories to explore. A better comparison might be The Winter Soldier, which actually was one of the best stories in the past ten years, but again, not a good fit for early Cap/Batman when those deaths are recent and there's a ton of villains who haven't even been introduced, and the hero hasn't even peaked yet. A nostalgia villain doesn't mean much without a time component.

    A fighter? Laurel is developing as a character. Fight scenes can be good, but without character, they're pointless and forgettable. Which is why being able to fight together doesn't actually open up any new avenues as far as character or emotions. They've worked together before. They work well together, they've been through hell together, for each other, against each other and because of each other already. What else is there to say?

    And what about the future? We've seen how working with Roy challenges Laurel, makes her grow as a character, how her friendship with Felicity ennobles her, and empowers both characters (Bechdel test ftw!). What about Laurel and Diggle back to back? Does he care about her humanity like he does Oliver's? That's new and interesting and different and makes sense with Laurel's current place in the universe. We haven't even seen Laurel training with Ollie, which carries more unexplored emotions with it than a season of Walking Dead, but you want them to prioritize her working with Sara over that? I guess you just don't like Laurel.

    And it's not just Laurel. The show is already rife with vigilantes. Having another one with the same skillset will not add anything to the action, much less the plotlines. Another way to say it: Sara's role on the team has been taken.

    Ollie's butt kicking partner: Roy
    Ollie's love interest: Felicity
    Road to the Black Canary: Laurel
    LoA connection: Thea & Malcolm
    Secretly Alive twist/storyline: Ollie, Malcolm
    Secret to keep from Quentin: Laurel

    To bring Sara back would then be to take this role from someone who is already in that role, thus retconning their growth, and preventing them from continuing to push the story forward so that you can take the story backwards for a fan favorite character.

    I mean what I say. Without Sara, Roy had to take leadership in the field with Laurel, and had the best character moment all season with Thea because of Sara's death. Diggle getting sidelined, having a daughter named Sara, all that is meaningless without Sara dying. Felicity being pulled two directions doesn't even fly when Sara can fulfill her emotional, fanservice and technical roles on the team to some degree. If Sara had not been dead in Season 3, we'd still have all the foolishness that came from bringing Malcolm back and bending a story around him, all the melodrama of Olicity but with none of the actually good character moments from the season. All the characters benefited from Sara's death, just like the show runners said from the beginning. They said it, it happened. Your focus on Laurel doesn't change these realities, or my honest, direct and consistent report of them.

    Even the ridiculous announcement of an Atom/half of Firestorm/Captain Cold/Sara spinoff is more interesting and provides for more aawesomeness than trying to get Sara back into her old Nyssa/Laurel storylines, which have moved on without her as both of those characters belong on Arrow with the rest of their supporting cast.

    That's basically my case in point, in order for Sara to flourish after her return, we'd have to take Laurel out of the interesting storyline she's finally getting on Arrow and put her in Sara's shadow on a BoP show. Because bringing back Sara doesn't make the show Arrow any better.

    I think you've missed my point a bit: bringing back Sara won't harm the past, those episodes already happened. It will harm the show from her resurrection forward, just as Malcolm's resurrection did. Sometimes adapting to what works means leaving a fan-favorite character dead. That's "what works." But this is just one of many "I'd love to have Sara back" posts that is not concerned with what works, only how to get Sara back and ignore anything good that happened on the show since she died. Every character had to check themselves because of Sara's death. Every character had to step up to the plate in Sara and Ollie's absence. Every character is invested in the LoA issue because Sara isn't there to smooth everything over. This is on top of all the things that had nothing to do with Malcom's fanservice resurrection taking the show backwards or Olicity. But I guess who cares, if Sara's not there?

    It has nothing to do with Laurel vs Sara for storyline prominence. It's Arrow vs The Canary for storyline quality, and I side with Arrow.
     
    #950 DrCosmic, Mar 8, 2015
    Last edited: Mar 8, 2015
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